getting swordsmith hq and master

[Jones_of_NY]

Iv become obsessed with getting silver chevron cav early game by stacking cav exp guild bonuses. Playing as sicily i decided that getting a hq in bologna, a master in florence, and a st johns hq in milan would be a quick and cheap way to get that(st johns as opposed to comparatively expensive horse breeders). After a while though i began to suspect you cant obtain a swordsmith hq and master. Bologna got the swordsmith hq, milan had the st johns hq but florence never got past basic swordsmith guild, despite being a citadel and me building dis. norman knights 3 a turn for a long time. Does me disbanding the dis. norman knights after they are built have something to do with it? I was doing that in bologna as well and that didnt seem to hurt. What is it? Can you not have a swordsmith HQ and a swordsmith master without conquering a city with a master already?

[Shahed]

Bologna got the swordsmith hq, ....but florence never got past basic swordsmith guild, despite being a citadel and me building dis. norman knights 3 a turn for a long time. Does me disbanding the dis. norman knights after they are built have something to do with it? What is it? Can you not have a swordsmith HQ and a swordsmith master without conquering a city with a master already?

Hi & Welcome to the org !

It is only possible to have ONE HQ for any guild for ALL factions, and ONE Master for any one faction. Do you already have a Master somewhere else ? You can have both, you do not need to conquer a city which already has it, but doing that is usually a plus. Disbanding does'nt affect guild points in any way.

[Jones_of_NY]

Thx for the prompt response. No, i dont have a master somewhere else, but im begining to think i hit the rumoured guild limit. I had 13 provinces at the time and shortly after getting the hq in bologna i accepted a ton of merchant guilds. So im thinking that if there is a guild cap (10 or proportionate to provinces like generals are the two theories iv read) i may have hit it. Im gonna reload an earlier save and refuse guilds to see if i can get my master and hq then.

[Shahed]

Pleasure.

That could be it. Generally I don't accept any offers I don't need/want, so I have'nt run into that problem myself.

[FactionHeir]

You can only have 1 master per faction and 1 hq overall.
The only way to get a hq and a master (or more) is by getting a master first and capturing a town that has a hq or having a hq and capturing a town that has a master.
The reason it is so, is that a hq also counts as a master, so if you have a hq, you won't get any offers for master.

[Jones_of_NY]

Wow, that sucks. So what is the point of getting the swordsmith HQ then? It offers nothing more than the master.

[Shahed]

What's the conclusion ?

This is intriguing because as England I'm really sure I had both Master and HQ Woodsman's Guild. I might have the save game, not sure.

[sapi]

Wow, that sucks. So what is the point of getting the swordsmith HQ then? It offers nothing more than the master.

It offers bonuses to all provinces, not just the one that it's in

[Jones_of_NY]

It offers bonuses to all provinces, not just the one that it's in

So does the swordsmith master guild. the Hq does nothing more.

[sapi]

Bad memory then - the HQ offers the bonuses of both a local and masters guild, iirc, so that it's a +2 bonus for the local province

[Foz]

Bad memory then - the HQ offers the bonuses of both a local and masters guild, iirc, so that it's a +2 bonus for the local province

That's a negative.

building guild_swordsmiths_guild
{
    convert_to guild_swordsmiths_guild
    levels swordsmiths_guild m_swordsmiths_guild gm_swordsmiths_guild 
    {
        swordsmiths_guild  requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, } 
        {
            convert_to 0
            capability
            {
                weapon_melee_blade 1
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  1000 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
                m_swordsmiths_guild
            }
        }
        m_swordsmiths_guild  requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, } 
        {
            convert_to 1
            capability
            {
                weapon_melee_blade 1
            }
            faction_capability
            {
                heavy_cavalry_bonus bonus 1
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  2000 
            settlement_min large_city
            upgrades
            {
                gm_swordsmiths_guild
            }
        }
        gm_swordsmiths_guild  requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, } 
        {
            convert_to 2
            capability
            {
                weapon_melee_blade 1
            }
            faction_capability
            {
                heavy_cavalry_bonus bonus 1
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  3000 
            settlement_min large_city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}

As you can see the gm building grants the same local bonus to melee weapons and the same faction-wide bonus to heavy cavalry as the master guild building. It really is exactly identical to the masters guild.

You're just wasting 3000 florins if you upgrade it.

[sapi]

Foz, is that the same for all guilds, or just the swordsmiths? (because I was going off general trends there)

[Shahed]

It's not the same for all guilds.

This is interesting though, I did'nt know that about this guild. One more thing to "fix".

[Foz]

Foz, is that the same for all guilds, or just the swordsmiths? (because I was going off general trends there)

As Sinan said, it's not like that for all guilds, or even most. One disturbing one I just saw though: explorers guild is even worse. It has no capabilities itself, and triggers always use >= the lowest level, so the m and gm levels for explorers guild are entirely worthless to have.

The rest fall in 2 categories mainly:

1. buildings that help agents
2. buildings that confer bonuses

The former are generally dealt with entirely in the traits file, and use traits to give a +1 local bonus for regular guild, additional +1 faction bonus for m guild, and +2 faction bonus (w/ local +1 still) for gm guild. Merchants is an exception, but still upgrades noticeably at each level. These all work well, though you wouldn't know it if you were only looking in the buildings file.

The latter generally employ a similar +1 local/+1 local & +1 faction/+1 local & +2 faction scheme - Horse Breeders and Alchemists both fall here. There is a bit of variance, but each level always has something better going on than the last did.

Where that leaves Explorers and Swordsmith, though, I can't say, except that they're obviously unfinished or broken since they fail to conform to the "higher levels are better than the lower ones" standard. Perhaps we should try to figure out some kind of standard fix for them that makes sense.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Actually you can have one HQ but several Masters. How? Capture them. In my current English campaign I have one HQ and two masters. I have also one hospitaller HQ and one horse breeder HQ. The hospitaller HQ is in Pamplona and because i have there also a tier 2 tourney field, I build / breed (he he) triple gold hospitaller knights. Yeah!

[Sentinel]

Quote by Foz.
Where that leaves Explorers and Swordsmith, though, I can't say, except that they're obviously unfinished or broken since they fail to conform to the "higher levels are better than the lower ones" standard. Perhaps we should try to figure out some kind of standard fix for them that makes sense.

You might like to add the woodmen’s guild to this list (unless it’s been fixed in 1.2).

[WhiskeyGhost]

I thought the explorers guilds traits for your general have like a higher rate or something if its more advanced......I could be mistaken and be thinking of another game though

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Woodsmen HQ give +2XP global but not the 3XP (2 global and 1 local) in the citadel where it is located

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Actually the woodmen guild is still bugged. See my last post. Also upgrades wont work if you save after ordering an upgrade. This is also a fact with the sword smith guild. Although this is more random. One turn it goes according to plan and the next turn ther is no upgrade. My turn routine is now:
- build
- move
- fight
- save
- (re)train units

[sapi]

Upgrades won't work if they were already queued in a freshly loaded game, iirc

[FactionHeir]

Yeah, due to a bug.

Btw there is a point in getting sword and explorer hq. It prevents those guild offers from popping up allowing other guild offers to come up more :D

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Actually if you fill a cue to retrain three units and than save you will loose the upgrades. The three units will be trained but without the upgrades. If you retrain depleted units you have to train them twice.

I have now three master smith-guilds. English knights are now trained with 2 gold chevrons. yippee

[Foz]

You might like to add the woodmen’s guild to this list (unless it’s been fixed in 1.2).

Woodsmen HQ give +2XP global but not the 3XP (2 global and 1 local) in the citadel where it is located

Actually the woodmen guild is still bugged. See my last post. Also upgrades wont work if you save after ordering an upgrade. This is also a fact with the sword smith guild. Although this is more random. One turn it goes according to plan and the next turn ther is no upgrade. My turn routine is now:
- build
- move
- fight
- save
- (re)train units

This is Woodsmen's guild from my 1.2 extracted export_descr_buildings.txt file:

building guild_woodsmens_guild
{
    levels woodsmens_guild m_woodsmens_guild gm_woodsmens_guild 
    {
        woodsmens_guild castle requires factions { england, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                archer_bonus 1
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  1000 
            settlement_min city
            upgrades
            {
                m_woodsmens_guild
            }
        }
        m_woodsmens_guild castle requires factions { england, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit_pool "Sherwood Archers"  1   0.2   2  0  requires factions { england, } 
                archer_bonus 1
            }
            faction_capability
            {
                archer_bonus 1
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  2000 
            settlement_min large_city
            upgrades
            {
                gm_woodsmens_guild
            }
        }
        gm_woodsmens_guild castle requires factions { england, } 
        {
            capability
            {
                recruit_pool "Sherwood Archers"  1   0.4   3  0  requires factions { england, } 
                archer_bonus 1
            }
            faction_capability
            {
                archer_bonus 2
            }
            material wooden
            construction  1 
            cost  3000 
            settlement_min large_city
            upgrades
            {
            }
        }
    }
    plugins 
    {
    }
}

I inspected the guild entries in this file when coming to my conclusions above. The local and faction bonuses are all present in the correct places for this guild, as you can verify. If they are in fact not working correctly in the game, it will be the first I've heard of it still being a problem in 1.2. I can't say I've had a woodsmen's HQ yet in 1.2 though, so I'm just judging from the moddable game files where all the other guild problems have manifested themselves.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Well I have a HQ in Caen. Whenever I train an archer there he gets two XPs. Which means that the Woodsmen guild is still bugged.