Elephants

[goolasso]

Are elephants of any use in EB? I have deployed them against sweboz (easily killed by mounted skirmishers) and pontos (a general killed 3 units of them). In vanilla RTW and RTR they were really strong but in EB they seem really weak.

P.S. The heavy armoured elephant and the normal elephant have the same in battle model. Why don't you "copy" the beautiful RTR κατάφρακτος elephant?

[keravnos]

Because we are making our own.

[LorDBulA]

And they kick ass :D

[goolasso]

Because we are making our own.

I understand but in the meanwhile you could leave the vanilla skin at least...

[Watchman]

For the time being, see here.

[goolasso]

For the time being, see here.

good but the RTR elephants are better

[Southern Hunter]

Are elephants of any use in EB? I have deployed them against sweboz (easily killed by mounted skirmishers) and pontos (a general killed 3 units of them). In vanilla RTW and RTR they were really strong but in EB they seem really weak.

To answer the original question....

I am not that experienced in using them, but have some experience now playing at Epiros. I find that they rock, because they cause a substantial morale hit to the enemy troops for some distance. In addition, they can melee and cause substantial damage, but I try not to use them except when I know they are going to win. They are expensive and difficult to replace.

Even just sitting behind your battle line they are an asset.

[Geoffrey S]

Keep them near the battleline for a morale penalty to the enemy, out of range from skirmishers, and never send them in unsupported. Very useful with cavalry or a screen of infantry protecting them.

good but the RTR elephants are better

They are also RTRs elephants, not EBs to use.

[The Errant]

People tend to forget that while they are big and ugly, elephants are still heavy cavalry. They are very weak against javelins and certain types of archers so sending them against either is suicide.
As long as you remember that, using them is easy. Like Cavalry they are at their best when charging from the flanks or back. Attacking a pikeunit from the front is a definite no no.
They aren't as fast as cavalry and should never be used to pursue broken troops. Their advantage is in their mass and ability to frighten infantry. Like heavy cavalry their duty is that of the hammer. Come in from the flank or rear. Charge. And watch the enemy take short leaps in the air only fall and break their necks. If that dosen't brake them, reform and do it again. Some weak melee units they can charge headon. And they can push their way trough pikeunits, but they will take a mauling doing it.
Apart from that, as long as you protect them from enemy skirmishers they can easily win the day. It's just a matter of using them the right way.

[Krusader]

Are elephants of any use in EB? I have deployed them against sweboz (easily killed by mounted skirmishers) and pontos (a general killed 3 units of them). In vanilla RTW and RTR they were really strong but in EB they seem really weak.

P.S. The heavy armoured elephant and the normal elephant have the same in battle model. Why don't you "copy" the beautiful RTR κατάφρακτος elephant?

Elephant stats will be taken a look at, but I don't expect any changes as they work as they are intended. Elephants were used for two purposes in war: Cavalry screen & breaking up infantry formations.

And as someone else said, they are RTR's elephants. Not ours.
But ours are being made now. Expect some nice images next preview.

[Watchman]

good but the RTR elephants are better

So copy-paste the relevant files and do some minor editing of your descr_model_battle.txt. Personally, I've lost count of how many different sources all kinds of peripheral textures and models come from in my copy...

RTW is rather "plug and play" friendly in this regard.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Are elephants of any use in EB? I have deployed them against sweboz (easily killed by mounted skirmishers) and pontos (a general killed 3 units of them). In vanilla RTW and RTR they were really strong but in EB they seem really weak.

P.S. The heavy armoured elephant and the normal elephant have the same in battle model. Why don't you "copy" the beautiful RTR κατάφρακτος elephant?

Don't leave them in melee and only attack a unit that's engaged. I learned that the hard way as the Qarthadastei (but their elephants are the weakest ones).

I love charging into Equites Romani with them. They take out like 4 each on the charge and cause complete annihilation. My elephants' tusks are stained with the blood of a general or two as well.

You have "copy" in quotes, so I assume you mean take their design...can't do that (and it would be cheap beyond belief as well), and EB is working on that, as said.

However, I have a question...I had my elephants hanging out on my flank after scraping some Romans off their tusks, and I told them to go behind some cavalry of mine...they went from 24 to 7 all of the sudden (their bodies taking out a bunch of cavalry), and ran amok. I have no idea what happened. I think it was some accensii, but I didn't think they were that vulnerable to the weakest slingers ever.

[Southern Hunter]

However, I have a question...I had my elephants hanging out on my flank after scraping some Romans off their tusks, and I told them to go behind some cavalry of mine...they went from 24 to 7 all of the sudden (their bodies taking out a bunch of cavalry), and ran amok. I have no idea what happened. I think it was some accensii, but I didn't think they were that vulnerable to the weakest slingers ever.

Everything, especially armored things (like elephants) are vulnerable to slingers. In my current build I have doubled the cost of slingers, and they are still a little overpowered.

[fluffyunbound]

Even used correctly, I can't see them ever being worth the expense.

Plain old cheapo medium cav gets the same job done better, for less.

They have some roleplay / immersion value - and they look really cool - but in strategic terms they're kind of a big downer.

[Watchman]

I always think of them - and for that matter most higher-end expensive units - as essentially specialist luxury items. Something you use if you can afford it, but had damn better be able to do without most of the time (for the record, my Baktrian armies tend not have too much heavier stuff than assorted javelin cav and skirmishers unless absolutely necessary...).

[LennStar]

Even used correctly, I can't see them ever being worth the expense.

Plain old cheapo medium cav gets the same job done better, for less.

They have some roleplay / immersion value - and they look really cool - but in strategic terms they're kind of a big downer.

A cav gets loses, elephants not. You can use them for many battles. After three your cav is history.

[Fondor_Yards]

A cav gets loses, elephants not. You can use them for many battles. After three your cav is history.

Dunno how you manage your cavalry, but unless I really screw up/the army is destoryed, my cavalry will usually last me my whole campaign.

[LennStar]

My cav is mostly the first who is down because I crush them in backs as much as possible. And every crush you lose one, two or three of them, mostly while retreating. One or two horses always bury themselves deep into the enemy, dunno why them bakas do it.

[hoom]

Elephants to the back of an engaged unit > Heavy horsie cavalry to the back of an engaged unit.

You just can't get the same sort of momentum & potential instant carnage from cavalry

[LorDBulA]

Armoured Elephants = Carnage (use only against heavy troops, protect from missile).
Cavalry gets stuck on first unit. Elephants charge punches through 5-7 enemy units (from the side, much deeper formation then when charging from front or behind).
Routs half of enemy army in one charge. Cavalry cant match.

[Watchman]

Cavalry sort of tends to be more versatile and cost-efficient though. The upkeep of one unit of the larger types of eles - nevermind armoured ones - easily pays for several units of quite high-end horse cavalry.

[LorDBulA]

Cavalry sort of tends to be more versatile and cost-efficient though. The upkeep of one unit of the larger types of eles - nevermind armoured ones - easily pays for several units of quite high-end horse cavalry.

Cavalry more versatile - definitely.
Cavalry more cost-efficient - yes, on average (not in big battles).
But Elephants in right conditions are unsopable.
You have the power of 4-5 high end cavalry units compressed inside one relatively small unit. It all can be delivered at once and on short front.
Cavalry cant match it. 4-5 cavalry units will take minutes to cause damage that Elephants can cause in mere seconds.
This is the ultimate weapon for destroying big and armour heavy army.
They cost their weight in gold but they are worth every penny.

I have nothing against cav. Its great and I use it all the time in quite big numbers. Usually cavalry is my hammer but I can appreciate elephants..

[pansoiatr]

Elephants have to be treated as something exotic and very precious.
I have used them in my epeirote campaign,at the beginning,and they can easily turn the tide of a battle in your favour

[geala]

Try to use heavy cavalry in a charge against the back of a elite pike phalanx. Then try the same with elephants. You will see the difference.

I'm currently playing Makedon and I'm missing elephants a little bit.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Elephants have to be treated as something exotic and very precious.
I have used them in my epeirote campaign,at the beginning,and they can easily turn the tide of a battle in your favour

Agreed, and as gollum would 'precious' they is.

I usually like to wait until the enemy is reasonably fully committed before releasing them into the enemies inf heavy rear. Using my own cav to clear the enemies missile units well away from them, as EB's Nellies are very vunrable to missiles and expensive(stops people using to many of them) also depending on where you are their recruitment zones are somewhat distant.

[-Praetor-]

To all people that think that the Elephants are weak:

I like to think that the Elephants are similar to tanks. They`re ugly, mean, cause considerable psicological trauma, inverse proportional to the enemy`s experience, pack a lot of punch, and are fairly protected.

But remember what happened to tanks and troop carriers when they entered Grozny on the 1st Chechen war??? They were cut to pieces. Why? Because they were used for an end that they weren`t designed to. The same happened in 1939 in Warsaw, 1942 Stalingrad, etc.

You have to use the weapons in the context they`re designed to.

You cannot make a Merkava 3 enter a destroyed city which`s boiling with Javelin and Kornet missiles, etc... but use a tank on plain ground, boy those guys can roll over an entire battleline.

Same with an elephant, you cannot make a frontal assault with an elephant to an army generously supported by iberi velites whose javelin packs are still full.

If you dislike that an elephant is no more the armored benemoth with chobham composite armor that were on RTW, that`s your problem. I agree that they are a bit underpowered, but if used properly, you can provoque mass rout in seconds.

You just have to learn *how* and *when* to use it.

Besides, if ppl dislike them so much, why the heck don`t they go to the EDU file and mod their stats by themselves???

Cheers!

[MiniMe]

Used wisely, elephants are immortal mummakils from Pellenor fields =)
But AI is definitely not good at using elephants, that's true =(
I hope one fine day AI combat behavior in TotalWar series is going to be moddable.