Weird Faction Reappearances

[caravel]

Working on the Pocket Mod recently I was running a test campaign, under AI control and on autorun, just to observe the AI. I noticed a large Seljuk reappearance in many of their former provinces. The reappearance force itself was in lesser Armenia and consisted mostly of Murabitin Infantry (al-Murabitun Infantry in the PM), which are a unit specific to the Moors and can only be trained in the Moorish Provinces. Why do they appear in reappearances in such large numbers for a faction that can't train them? Do reappearances effectively follow the same rules as revolts? Are the rebelling troops mixes used for reappearances as I suspect? Also is it based on the culture type? If so is there any way that I can prevent this from occurring?

Here are the unit prod lines for MuraubitinInfantry

MurabitinInfantry	INFANTRY	150	5	1	0	80	60	1	OK	"MUS_REBELS(10), MUS_LOYALISTS(10), MUS_PEASANTS(10), MUS_BANDITS(10), MUS_ZEALOTS(8), MUS_HERETICS(10)"		ID_MOROCCO		"POVERTY_STRICKEN(200), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(100), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(80), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(80), CATHOLIC_TRADER(100), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(100), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(80), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(120), POPE(150), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(120), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(150), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(120), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(80), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(100), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(100), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(80), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(80), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(40), REBELS(100), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(15)"		{ SPEARMAKER }	"DEFENDER,MISSILE,WEAK"		ALL_PERIODS	YES	"HEIGHT( 85 ), RADIUS( 25 ), SCALE( 120 ), PROJECTILE_TYPE( JAV ), SAMURAI( NO ), MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 12 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 13 ), MIN_TURNSPEED( 2 ), MAX_TURNSPEED( 8 ), TURN_TO_MOTION_SPEED( 8 ), MAX_INMOTION_TURN( 96 ), FORMATION_WIDTH_SPACING( 100 ), FORMATION_LENGTH_SPACING( 100 ), ENGAGEMENT_THRESHOLD( 1500 ), CHARGE_BONUS( 2 ), MELEE_BONUS( 1 ), DEFENCE_BONUS( -2 ), ARMOUR_LEVEL( 1 ), HONOUR_LEVEL( 4 ), AMMO( 4 ), FORMATIONS_PREFERRED_NUM_ROWS( 4 )"	NO		"own_unit_tooltip1, own_unit_tooltip2, other_unit_tooltip1,  other_unit_tooltip2"		"BURNOUS, YES, YES"		FN_ALMOHAD	"ID_MOROCCO, ID_ALGERIA, ID_TUNISIA, ID_AFRICA, ID_LIBYA"	"Missile, Shocktroop, Spear, Cavalry"	"SKIRMISH(1), ADVANCE_PARTY(1),
OUTFLANKING_FORCE(1), MAIN_BODY(2), HOLD_TERRAIN(1), RESERVE(1), REINFORCEMENT(1), ASSAULT(1), ASSAULT_COVER(0), ASSAULT_COVER_CASTLE_ATTACK(0), COVER(0)"	MUSLIM		0		UNFORMED	LARGE	YES	1	NO	0	0						SWORD	YES	ALL_PERIODS	FN_ALMOHAD

Many thanks


Cambyses II

[Noir]

Originally posted by Cambyses II
Do reappearances effectively follow the same rules as revolts?

Its quite possible - in MedMod IV, most of the re-appearances consist of units that are given on that province's "rebel" roster, and not from the normal faction roster. Sometimes though units of the same faction (like proper units of that faction, that era do appear). Maybe the infrastructure of the province is connected to this? I can't say for sure but its possible.

Many Thanks

Noir

edit: if your suspicion is true re-emerging armies/factions they would be treated as "loyalists" i guess.

[caravel]

Its quite possible - in MedMod IV, most of the re-appearances consist of units that are given on that province's "rebel" roster, and not from the normal faction roster. Sometimes though units of the same faction (like proper units of that faction, that era do appear). Maybe the infrastructure of the province is connected to this? I can't say for sure but its possible.

Many Thanks

Noir

edit: if your suspicion is true re-emerging armies/factions they would be treated as "loyalists" i guess.

I was thinking loyalists, and I was thinking the best way to deal with this would be to remove such overly specific units from loyalist revolts (i.e. ghazis, futuwwas, ghulam cavalry, arab infantry etc etc etc only). The problem is that in this particular reappearance there was no variety at all. All the reappearing units, about 2000 of them or more IIRC, were al-Murabitun apart from the Ghulam Bodyguard Sultan and two units of peasants... The next thing I will be seeing a reappearance of the Turks with 10,000 Berber Camels in Georgia!

[Noir]

Not that this wouldn't make you () happy though

[barocca]

...province's "rebel" roster, and not from the normal faction roster

I would be interested in seeing where this "province rebel roster" resides

[Noir]

In MedMod IV, the units.txt below all units for all factions, after the last rows dedicated to agents and ships, Wes has two units that are available to all factions and all provinces. These are feudal seargents (second in the game) and peasants.

These two are the ones that most frequently man faction rebellions and re-appearances (particularly the seargents), although as i said from time to time, proper "faction" units (that is designated for a specific faction) also appear.

It seems to me that it is their position in the units.txt that causes this, as many other units are also designated as part of rebel/loyalist groups and in fact have higher values for every rebel group. It is this that i called "province rebel roster", but the term is rather faulty and misleading - apologies for that.(I called it so as these 2 units do not carry faction/province restrictions but (almost) all other have).

Previously the AI would also add plenty of catapults into rebel/loyalist/reappearance stacks, but for that reason i removed the catapult as an available piece and the rebel designation it carried. I think this last bit is a bug and Wes mentioned it as such in the units.txt AFAI remember.

In Samurai warlordsv8, reapperances are mainly manned out of Heavy and Naginata cavalry, some infantry (YS and ND) and some teppo AFAI can tell - i haven't read the file though, so i can't correlate.

Many Thanks

Noir

[barocca]

that theory is interesting,
if it does work we may be able to put a couple of unique units in there for rebellions only

[caravel]

Well in my case with Murabitin Infantry right up there near the top of the unit prod file with siege equipment, it seems to me that the opposite may be the case. This could explain why my Turks reappearance was full of them, and why rebellions are always full of siege weapons, no matter how much I had altered the rebelling troops mixes. Removing them from rebellions was the only way to fix that. It seems that rebellions work from the unit prod list top downwards?

[Noir]

The catapult is infact the very first unit. The other artillery though (that follows it) isn't somehow prefered for re-appearances - rebellions in MedMod IV.

Many Thanks

Noir

[caravel]

In the vanilla unit prod file the first unit is Highland Clansmen, followed by all siege equipment in logical sequence then Murabitin Infantry and so on. What is the range of values that can be added here? I have tried negative values down to about -300 and have still seen the 1 unit trebuchet revolts.

[caravel]

Massive Highland Clansemen rebellion in Trebizond... hmmmm, something is amiss.

[The Receptionist]

are you sure the scots did not simply lose at soccer?