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Thread: Money Masters

  1. #1
    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default Money Masters

    I figure this might go into the video thread, but I think it must have its own.
    PART I: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=money+masters
    PART II: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=money+masters


    I saw this documentary long ago, and thought it useful to point out its existence so anyone here who hasn't seen it. It's about money and how it is controlled. A pretty old documentary, but a very nice one. The two parts are long: almost two hours for the first one. But I think it's worth it.

    Among the best I'd ever seen :)
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  2. #2
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Don't have the time to watch it now, but it's funny that it's on the internet and starts with a copy protection message.

    Lots of stuff I didn't know, got sucked in for 40mins already, someone stop me please.

    Anyway, it paints a rather dark picture and apparently tries to explain why computers become more and more expensive.
    Makes me wonder what my teachers and professors would say about it.
    Last edited by Husar; 05-14-2007 at 10:41.


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  3. #3
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Now that was the first part.
    Though I browsed the org at the same time.

    So they basically say that evil moneylenders own the national/federal banks of many countries and use their monopoly on money to make themselves even more insanely rich and powerful?
    They also say that the assassinations of American presidents could be linked to those moneylenders in the sense that they gave the orders.

    While I smelled a big conspiracy theory at first, it does make some sense and if those banks are really privately owned, I have to agree that this is a very bad idea(didn't know that until now, the names are really misleading in that case).

    But before I'll invade the federal bank with my pitchfork phalanx and die a heroic death in the name of monetary freedom I'd like to say the fact that they quoted Bismarck really convinced me*goes and builds Bismarck shrine*.

    Seriously, I'd like to hear some opinions of other orgahs but I guess the long nature of the videos is a hindrance for some(and proof that I have way too much time and should get out more).


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  4. #4
    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default AW: Money Masters

    True: it sounds like conspiracy stuff, albeit probably very true. I, too, would like to hear what people have to say about the historical information and anything in it. Especially the historians.


    To any mod: would this topic be better fitted in the Monastery, or perhaps in both the Backroom and Monastery?
    Emotion, passions, and desires are, thus peace is not.
    Emotion: you have it or it has you.

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  5. #5
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Bijo
    True: it sounds like conspiracy stuff, albeit probably very true. I, too, would like to hear what people have to say about the historical information and anything in it. Especially the historians.


    To any mod: would this topic be better fitted in the Monastery, or perhaps in both the Backroom and Monastery?
    It depends on which way the discussion turns: if it's about conspiracy theories or the politics of money (who controls the valuation & flow), then here is good.

    If it's about the origin and development of monetary systems over time, the Monastery is your friend.

    For now, we'll leave it here and see what happens.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  6. #6
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Anyway, it paints a rather dark picture and apparently tries to explain why computers become more and more expensive.
    If they said that in the video then they are ID-ten-T's

    Computers are dropping in price overtime compared to how much they do. I'm sure those of you who bought laptops in the eighties would appreciate this.

    The proportion of income required to buy a computer has steadily dropped. The CPU, RAM, GPU, HD have all increase in power.

    How many of you can remember using a 286? Their harddrives are smaller then most RAM sticks nowadays.
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  7. #7
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Pape, they just talked about inflation in general and I used my artistic freedom to note that top-end parts like graphicscards are actually becoming more costly. Some years ago you wouldn't find a high end graphicscard for almost 1000EUR here. And when the parts are affordable, they're often also outdated, the highend stuff sometimes isn't sold anymore before it comes down to a low price(that is once the next generation of cards arrives).

    Anyway, the movie actually talks about inflation, and inflation includes computers.


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  8. #8
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Of course the high end stuff is expensive - however, a new graphics card today is both cheaper and also thousands of times more powerful than a card ten years ago.

    And the price of computers has gone down a lot when you include how much better they've gotten.

  9. #9
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Well, the production of those cards is cheaper today as well, or at least it should be.
    If you go by more power = higher price, then one day you will pay 10,000EUR for a new highend card because "well, it's so much more powerful than those old cards".


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  10. #10
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    So something that costs less of a proportion of your money and is more powerful then the older version is more expensive?

    I think the problem here is they are not comparing the same hardware and also more importantly not factoring in buying power increase alongside inflation.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  11. #11
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    So something that costs less of a proportion of your money and is more powerful then the older version is more expensive?

    I think the problem here is they are not comparing the same hardware and also more importantly not factoring in buying power increase alongside inflation.
    His point is:

    If the high end card back then had a unit cost to the manufacturer of 500 1990 Euros, and they sold it for 1000; but today's high end card costs 450 1990-equiv Euros to make, they should reduce the price to 950 instead of charging the 1000 cost that the market has demonstrated it will bear.

    I disagree.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  12. #12
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    No, my point was a different one.
    My point was that prices sometimes rise faster than wages and that basically makes people poorer.
    The point of the documentary was that national banks don't really want a stable currency because a stable currency doesn't help their private owners to become even richer.


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  13. #13
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    I'm not going to play a violin for those people who feel poor because they can't buy the latest set of graphics card in quad configuration.

    Overall PCs have dropped in price and improved in capacity. What the market will pay for luxury goods (such as prestige entertainment pieces) which high end graphics cards are, is not an accurate way of showing the increase in the cost of living.

    Its like saying that sashimi is really expensive therefore all fish is expensive.

    And national banks do want a stable (not necessarily fixed currency) as the way to get a better credit rating (and hence more investments) is to have a stable, growing economy.

    =][=

    Look at China and the low wages there. Now it makes sense to build stuff in China and sell it overseas. But what a lot of companies are drooling over is an expanding market where Chinese have more surplus wages to buy their goods. As the Chinese economy takes off, more and more luxuaries can be sold to them... the standard of living is going up and more people are making a profit.

    In short slaves make poor consumers, capitalists need wealthy customers.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 05-16-2007 at 22:54.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Pape for global overlord!!
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  14. #14
    Hand Bacon Member ShadeHonestus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    In short slaves make poor consumers, capitalists need wealthy customers.

    I find it increasingly difficult to convert my slaves to wealthy clerks. This is even after I make full citizenship a staple of my government. Can I make them into military units and DoW the nation next to me thereby eliminating them entirely or are they stuck as slave PoP's?




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  15. #15
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    I'm not going to play a violin for those people who feel poor because they can't buy the latest set of graphics card in quad configuration.

    Overall PCs have dropped in price and improved in capacity. What the market will pay for luxury goods (such as prestige entertainment pieces) which high end graphics cards are, is not an accurate way of showing the increase in the cost of living.

    Its like saying that sashimi is really expensive therefore all fish is expensive.
    I chose computer parts as an example because I know the prices.
    I was thinking about food, but I don't like adding a "say my parents", "according to my parents" etc into every sentence. Let's just say according to them and many others, the price of food has increased as well, but I cannot give you an example since I didn't use to buy my own food back then.

    Maybe I chose the wrong example with computer parts, but originally I wasn't serious anyway, shouldn't have sticked with it, my fault.


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  16. #16
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    I was thinking about food,
    I think there are two main reasons food prices have increased so much:

    1) The EU agricultural policy

    2) Big chain supermarkets

    Not much to do with the national banks imo.
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  17. #17
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    That's what I thought before, doc_bean, and still think, but the documentary claims that inflation etc is driven by those banks and that they won't stop before everybody else is poor etc. Don't really know why they should want that, but then again it wasn't me who claimed that.

    And it's a bit suspicious that a big raise in food prices happened when the Euro was introduced, many just changed the sign behind the number of the price while wages were correctly calculated to avoid that anyone would earn more money than before. And no, I don't think it's the fault of the Euro(how can a coin be at fault anyway?).
    Last edited by Husar; 05-17-2007 at 12:17.


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  18. #18
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Money Masters

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    That's what I thought before, doc_bean, and still think, but the documentary claims that inflation etc is driven by those banks and that they won't stop before everybody else is poor etc. Don't really know why they should want that, but then again it wasn't me who claimed that.
    We have several convience stores very close to eachother here, some are far more expensive than others (30% or more on the same food article, brand and all) yet they both get costumers. Capitalism doesn't always work the way you suspect it will, big chains know they can raise the price and the people will keep coming.

    The introduction of the Euro made most stores 'round up' and they noticed that it didn't translate in less sales, so they keep increasing the price until it does show.
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