MTW Pocket Mod: Units, Buildings and Unit Stats

[The Unknown Guy]

I had thought a while ago on suggesting "Byzantine Sergeants" instead of armored spearmen, as a unit for Byzantium.

Also: how about tweaking the Varangian Guard to have two versions? If you check the description file, there´s one that lists them as "A place where many a viking king won his throne" and another that lists them as a "sometimes ceremonial unit"

So how about Varangian Guard Early and High with good stats and Varangian Guard late with diminished stats?

[caravel]

I had thought a while ago on suggesting "Byzantine Sergeants" instead of armored spearmen, as a unit for Byzantium.

They would be perhaps equal to Sergeants but would not be Sergeants if that makes sense? "Sergeants" are a medieval western european thing, not really a Byzantine troops type IIRC. They would have to be called Byzantine Spearmen or Byzantine Infantry.

Also: how about tweaking the Varangian Guard to have two versions? If you check the description file, there´s one that lists them as "A place where many a viking king won his throne" and another that lists them as a "sometimes ceremonial unit"

This is possible. There is an early Varangian unit in existence, but it was never used in the game. THey could be used for the early era and the regular ones for the high era (their own equipment would have been almost completely replaced by Byzantine equipment by then).

So how about Varangian Guard Early and High with good stats and Varangian Guard late with diminished stats?

I'm still unsure as to whether to place them in the late era. This is a very overpowered unit as it is.

[Martok]

So how about Varangian Guard Early and High with good stats and Varangian Guard late with diminished stats?

I'm still unsure as to whether to place them in the late era. This is a very overpowered unit as it is.

Aside from Caravel's valid point about VG being rather overpowered, I would also object to Varangians being included in the Late period for historical reasons. By the 12th century, the traditional "Vikings" had already begun passing away into memory, and the ranks of the Guards had largely been replaced by Anglo-Saxons instead of Rus & Norsemen. After the Fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople in 1204, the Varangians - for all intents and puroposes - appears to have ceased as an operational military unit.

While I do think the Byz could stand to have a decent heavy infantry unit available in the High & Late period (for the sake of game balance, if nothing else), I don't think they should be Varangians. Instead, I would suggest something like what VikingHorde did in his XL mod, which was to give the Byzantines Latin Auxillaries. Not that they necessarily should be called that, though.

Frankish Mercenaries, perhaps? Men from western Europe - often times young nobles who had no inheritance of their own and seeking fortune/fame - did serve in later Imperial armies. I don't know if it was really that common, but at least there's *some* historical precedence to include them as a unit. It might not be the greatest idea, but it would allow the Byz to have heavy infantry available in the High & Late periods.

[The Unknown Guy]

During the siege of Constantinople by Mehmed II, the byzantines received military and economical assistance from the venetians and the genovese, so it would have base. Maybe enable halberdiers for Byzantium in late?

[Martok]

During the siege of Constantinople by Mehmed II, the byzantines received military and economical assistance from the venetians and the genovese, so it would have base. Maybe enable halberdiers for Byzantium in late?

That had occurred to me as well, except that I'm under the impression their military aid was primarily in the form of a navy, not soldiers. Still, you might have a point.

[The Unknown Guy]

according to this: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...&postcount=567
and assuming that the quote is real, there were genovese and venetian soldiers in the garrison.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Caravel

They would be perhaps equal to Sergeants but would not be Sergeants if that makes sense? "Sergeants" are a medieval western european thing, not really a Byzantine troops type IIRC. They would have to be called Byzantine Spearmen or Byzantine Infantry.

i think they should be called scutati (or skutatoi in a more "hellenised" spelling).

Scutum, was refering to their shield (a left over term from roman times). They were good quality rank and file (spear) infantry evlolved from the commitanses.

http://www.answers.com/topic/byzantine-battle-tactics

http://www.freewebs.com/hv-wargamers...Battleline.jpg

[caravel]

@excetchzebe1: Scutatoi would be fine, but if I'm going to go down that route, which I might as well, I'll need the same sort of names for Byz infantry, Byz lancers and Byz cavalry.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Caravel

@excetchzebe1: Scutatoi would be fine, but if I'm going to go down that route, which I might as well, I'll need the same sort of names for Byz infantry, Byz lancers and Byz cavalry.

Hmmm, then you'll be too close to the medmod that has chosen that exactly (that is not necessarily good neither necessarily bad, i guess). The respective names in the medmod are:

Byz infantry (swordsmen): vestiaritai
Byz lancers (medium cavalry with lances): stradiotai (or stratiotai, meaning "soldiers" in greek)
Byz Cavalry (medium cavalry + swords + bows): Vardariotai (vardariots)
(Trebizond) Archers: psiloi (meaning "thin" in greek, obviously refering to the fact that they were lightly armoured skirmishers)

None of these is "exactly" accurate (as there isn't such a thing anyway).

Alternative names for the spearmen would be Kontaratoi ("those bearing spears - kontarion") and for the skirmishers/archers toxotai ("archers").

The swords the Byzantines used were the "spatha" (or "spathi" - longsword) as well as the "paramerion" (sort of a scimitar sword that i guess makes for the inspiration on the unit info). A name along the lines of "spathatoi" (those bearing swords) would be probably acceptable, i guess, for a sword unit.

The byzantine infantry (swords) and the byzantine spearmen were most likely one and the same unit that occupied different positions in the formation (spears front ranks - swords behind). The same is possibly true for the "kataphraktoi" and the "clibanophoroi" - horsemen whithin the same unit with different functions.

Good luck with it - it seems you enjoy it very much

By the way:

This is a reconstructed kataphract of the 12th century. The style was "adapted" to a slightly western style by (of course) Manuel Comnenos who was ...suspiciously excited about chivalry for a byzantine emperor (he was organising jousts too!).

http://www.levantia.com.au/military/kataphraktos.html

[Belisario]

Some notes about Turkish units

Sipahis of the Porte: I think this unit could be renamed as Kapikulu Sipahis. The Kapikulu (“slaves of the court”) were the elite corps of the Ottoman army, and its infantry units or Janissaries (yeni çeri, “new troops”) are well known to us. However the Kapikulu cavalry was militarily more important and had higher prestige than the Janissary infantry. Its members are sometimes confused with feudal, provincial, fief-holding cavalry as both were known as “sipahis”. The Kapikulu cavalry formed six “Bölükat” or regiments under the rulers immediate command. Most are again called sipahis, though this was also the title of one specific regiment, the “Sipahi Oglan” (sipahi children), an elite bodyguard created by Mehmet I early in the 15th century. The others were the “Silahdars” (ruler’s weapon holders; an early bodyguard), the Left and Right “Gureba” (non-Ottoman Muslims), and the Left and Right “Ulufeciyan” (salaried men). Their numbers were small –a few hundred in each regiment- but they were superbly equipped and heavily armoured. The Kapikulu cavalry was the battle-winning element in a classic Ottoman army, so the game could reflect this fact. I suggest make them a shock cavalry armed with lance and sword or mace to close combat.

Ottoman Sipahis: I think this unit could be renamed as Timarli Sipahis. By the late 14th century the provincial forces maintained and provided by the “timar” (an Ottoman form of “fief”) holders constituted the bulk of Ottoman cavalry and often were called sipahis like the elite palace regiments. The quality of a timarli cavalryman’s weaponry reflected the sized of his fief, though most were lightly equipped compared to the Kapikulu cavalry. Ordinary timar fiefs supported one horseman, while the holders of higher valued timars were also expected to equip mounted retainers, but all mustered and fought beneath the banner of their “Sancak Beg” (a governor of a military province).

In Anatolia the Ottomans incorporated existing sipahis and their timars. At first the process was similar in Christian Rumelia (the Balkan portion of the Ottoman state). Many Balkan “pronoia” fiefs were converted into timars and thus a large proportion of Balkan or Rumeli timarli cavalry were still Christian, being members of existing warrior aristocracies which had accepted Ottoman rule. In short I think another possibility could be make two types of provincial, fief-holding, sipahis:

-Anatolian Timarli Sipahis: equipped as horse archers with some armour and decent melee stats in a typical Turkish fashion and only trainable in the Anatolian provinces (Nicaea, Anatolia, Rum, Trebizond).
-Rumelian Timarli Sipahis: equipped as heavy cavalry in a typical Balkan fashion (I suggest a look similar to the Byzantine Pronoiai Allagion) and only trainable in the Balkan provinces (Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Constantinople).

Sources:
-Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774 by David Nicolle, Osprey MAA 140.
-Nicopolis 1396 by David Nicolle, Osprey Campaign 64.

Will be continued…

[caravel]

Belisario and excetchzebe1, thanks for the name change info! I may be able to actually do some modding now.

Well I've been working on Innocentius' Swedish Crossbow Peasants for hours and on the campaign map they're fine. In battle they CTD the game straight to the desktop... I haven't changed anything except to set their weapon as AP (I've tried without AP as well) and I have changed their Charge, Melee, Defense, Armour, Honour stats and their movements speeds are those of slav warriors. The base unit size is 100 instead of 60. Apart from that they are regular crossbows. The crash occurs as soon as they try to fire on the enemy. All of their textures files are inplace. I have replicated the crossbows entirely simply copying and renaming files. I've done the item/shield, done the files in the MShelm and the actionspage stuff, I've even done the deadpage coordinates already. At present I'm totally stumped. If I can't find a solution I'll have to delete them and start afresh.

[Martok]

Hey, you can only try your best Caravel. If you can't get them to work, yes of course it'd be unfortunate, but so be it. You're not Superman, you know.

[caravel]

Hey, you can only try your best Caravel. If you can't get them to work, yes of course it'd be unfortunate, but so be it. You're not Superman, you know.

This is nothing complicated just a new unit, like the Militia Cavalry or the Desert Horse Archers. There is some kind of error or omission somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it.

[naut]

Did you give them ammo in the Unit_Prod file? That can cause CTDs.

[caravel]

Did you give them ammo in the Unit_Prod file? That can cause CTDs.

I changed their ammo from 28 to 24, then I changed it back. I ended up basically turning them back into standard crossbows, statistically, and they still wouldn't work.

[Belisario]

Hi Caravel

I've read your problems with the new Swedish crossbowmen peasants and I remember that crossbows are treated like shields. Duke John in his Unit Graphics guide says about this matter:

Note that crossbows (and if you want bows) are treated like shields to create perspective. Technically there is no difference between crossbows and shields, visually you will just see a crossbow instead of a shield.

5.1.4 Textures\Men\NameBIF\NameUnit_S.txt
This file contains an integer corresponding to the shield number:2[/list]In this case the unit will use the shield2; the blue entry as entered under 5.1.2.
In some cases, as with Pavise Crossbowmen, the unit uses two 'shields'. You should then make the following entry:2,3[/list]In which 3 corresponds with the crossbow graphic. Note that you should also make the positioning coordinates for the crossbow

The link for the guide is: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31893

[Belisario]

Some notes about Turkish units, chapter 2:

Janissaries: In MTW we can deploy three units of janissaries: janissary infantry, janissary archers, and janissary heavy infantry.

Janissary infantry’s info pic is based on a plate from an Osprey book – The Janissaries by David Nicolle, Elite Series 58 – that represented a “Nefer Janissary soldier” from the late 14th century, the early days of the Janissaries. The bif animation matches well with the info pic. I think these soldiers would be the first janissaries available to the Ottomans and you could rename them as “Nefer Janissaries” (nefer means soldier).

Janissary Heavy Infantry’s info pic is based on a plate from the same Osprey book that represented a “Zirhli Nefer” janissary from the 16th century and the author’s comment about the figure says some interesting words: “Janissaries who continued to wear full armour were simply known as Zirhli Nefer or “armoured soldiers”. They were used as assault troops (…). This man has a highly decorated gilded helmet with a Janissary plume-holder on the front, a flexible neck-guard and a mail-and-plate “zirh gömlek” cuirass (…). His shield is a form adopted from the Ottoman’s eastern European foes, while the “tirpan” staff-weapon suggests Italian influence”. I think the term Zirhli Nefer was a common expression and not only for the armoured janissaries so you could rename the JHI as “Zirhli Nefer Janissaries”.

Janissary Archers have an authentic classic janissary look when we deploy them on MTW battlefields. I refer to their Bif animation which includes the typical white cap of the janissaries. However their info pic doesn’t do them justice; from my point of view this represents a tribal or irregular Turkish archer. Concerning the Janissary Archers bif, this corresponds with the 15th century Janissary equipment similar to the equipment used by the famous Janissary musketeers. In the Osprey book Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774 the author comments an illustration of a 15th century Janissary: “The government-issued equipment of the Janissary infantry was simple but of good quality, as was their heavy woollen clothing. The characteristic woollen cap would later grow larger, while shield and bow would soon both be abandoned in favour of a musket”. I think you could give them the longbow or create a new type of bow/projectile which represents the eastern composite bow; you can bear in mind these words from the Osprey book Nicopolis 1396: “The Ottoman composite bow, though having greater range, accuracy and rate of shooting than the Western European longbow, shot notably lighter arrows”.

Ottoman Infantry: This unit would be the bulk of Ottoman non-elite infantry, however its info pic leaves me perplex: it’s based on a plate from the Osprey book Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774 which represents a superbly equipped Ottoman infantryman of the early 15th century. The author’s comment about the figure says: “This man is clearly one of the Sultan’s elite. He wears full infantry armour of mail-and-splints, probably designed for siege-warfare. Even his engraved iron shield could resist primitive firearms. His sword is slung from his shoulder, a style only used by foot soldiers”. A possible solution for this unit could be rename it as “Zirhli Nefer” which means “armoured soldier” or as “Baltaci” which means “halberdier or man who wielded a battle-axe”.

[caravel]

Thanks Belisario, I had thought the crossbow might be a shield in frames but wasn't sure. I did notice it in the files in the MShelm directory though.

The Skutatoi are finished and working, with one hitch. The unit icon on the battle map. I can't get a program (tried psp and ultimate paint) to save .lbm files small enough so as not to crash the battle map, or at least I think that's the problem. They're currently using a copy of the Byzantine Infantry unit icon, which doesn't cause a crash. The black spots need cleaning off the bifs as well, but apart from that the .bifs have come out ok... ok by my standards anyway.

The Swedish Crossbows (name required) are also finished and working! The problem was that I had inadvertently given them an armour value of 0.......

Once I get these sorted I'll get onto some Byzantine, Janissary and Ottoman renaming.

[Martok]

The Swedish Crossbows (name required) are also finished and working! The problem was that I had inadvertently given them an armour value of 0.......

Once I get these sorted I'll get onto some Byzantine, Janissary and Ottoman renaming.

Huzzah!

Just out of curiosity (and NOT to nag - I'm in no hurry ), do you have any idea when the 0.6 version will be ready for download? I'm just wondering if I'll have at least another week or two to play some more of my Fatamid campaign (on the 0.5 version)....

[caravel]

We've a way to go yet. Before this next release I hope to be able to turn out working lbm files for the battle map uniticons. If I can't do that, then the release will have to be delayed until I can.

The Skutatoi are basically based on Chivalric Sergeants stats at present, but I would prefer to move away from that set formula, giving them different strengths and weaknesses to the former. Their info pic is the same as byzantine infantry except they are holding a spear instead of a sword. The same goes for their review panel icon. In battle they also look the same as Byzantine Infantry except that they carry a spear, or one could say that they look identical to Saracen Infantry except with the Byzantine Infantry shield.

I have some more questions/proposals/suggestions for the learned amongst us to peruse:

1) Were Kataphrakoi/Klibanophoroi actually the bodyguard units for Byzantine Royalty? If so which one (see below first).

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

3) The Kataphraktoi in the game should definitely be Klibanophoroi, the all over armoured man and horse. There should probably be two type of Klibanophoroi, those armed with bows ("Klibanophoroi Toxotai"?) and those without. Historically both types would have been used probably within the same unit. It would have varied alot. The problem with MTW is that if we create only one type of Klibanophoroi with a bow, the AI will use it primarily as a horse archer and not unleash it's full potential.

4) Byzantine Cavalry would be the bow armed version of Kataphraktoi, my greek is not good, so perhaps someone can come up with a name for these "Kataphraktoi Horse Archers" ("Kataphraktoi Toxotai"?).

5) For Byzantine Lancers, perhaps "Trapezitoi" would be a good name? I have seen alot of references to this on the net, albeit mostly at wargaming minatures sites. I could do with finding some more reliable information. It appears that they may have been javelin armed cavalry similar to Jinetes.

6) I also think that the Psiloi need to be introduced, that is the light infantry. These would have to be based on the Trebizone Archers (currently the Toxotai hat look similalar to Ottoman Infanry/Bulgarians Brigands in battle but have the Treb Archers stats). To do this I would replicate the Toxotai but remove the shields and slightly nerf their stats. As a compromise they would of course get the composite bow once it's up and running. The Psiloi would then take over from the old Toxotai, possibly with slighly improved stats (no decisions on stats yet).

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

-Edit: Note to self: Check the Swedish Peasants' charge animation is working correctly. I have used the charge script from militia sergeants in order that their axes be visible when charging, but I didn't pay any attention to whether it was working or not.

[Martok]

1) Were Kataphrakoi/Klibanophoroi actually the bodyguard units for Byzantine Royalty? If so which one (see below first).

I've had a passive interest in that very question for a while now, but I have yet to find a satisfactory answer. I know that the Emperor sometimes rode into battle with an elite regiment of heavy cavalry call the Immortals (they were generally stationed in Constantinople), but it doesn't specify whether or not they were actually Kats of some type. My gut feeling tells me they were, but I have no proof of that.

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

I'm not so sure about that, actually. Granting that I've not read up on all things Byzantine (or even a majority of it, I'm sure!), pretty much every source of material on the Byz I *have* come across has mentioned Kataphractoi/Klibanophoroi and Pronoia as being different things. Katanks were generally recruited from the middles classes of Imperial society, whereas the PA generally seem to have been restricted to the upper nobility and higher-ranking military officers.

3) The Kataphraktoi in the game should definitely be Klibanophoroi, the all over armoured man and horse. There should probably be two type of Klibanophoroi, those armed with bows ("Klibanophoroi Toxotai"?) and those without. Historically both types would have been used probably within the same unit. It would have varied alot. The problem with MTW is that if we create only one type of Klibanophoroi with a bow, the AI will use it primarily as a horse archer and not unleash it's full potential.

4) Byzantine Cavalry would be the bow armed version of Kataphraktoi, my greek is not good, so perhaps someone can come up with a name for these "Kataphraktoi Horse Archers" ("Kataphraktoi Toxotai"?).

Yeah, I'm not sure what to tell you there. The only thing I can think of would be to take Byzantine Cavalry and rename them ("Prokursatores", maybe?). Possibly reduce their training costs and/or build requirements as well? That would be counter-intuitive, though, seeing as they should probably be roughly equal to Kataphractoi/Klibanaophoroi. Hmm, need to think on that one more....

5) For Byzantine Lancers, perhaps "Trapezitoi" would be a good name? I have seen alot of references to this on the net, albeit mostly at wargaming minatures sites. I could do with finding some more reliable information. It appears that they may have been javelin armed cavalry similar to Jinetes.

It's as good a name as any. I wasn't able to find anything on them either, so I'd just say go for it.

6) I also think that the Psiloi need to be introduced, that is the light infantry. These would have to be based on the Trebizone Archers (currently the Toxotai hat look similalar to Ottoman Infanry/Bulgarians Brigands in battle but have the Treb Archers stats). To do this I would replicate the Toxotai but remove the shields and slightly nerf their stats. As a compromise they would of course get the composite bow once it's up and running. The Psiloi would then take over from the old Toxotai, possibly with slighly improved stats (no decisions on stats yet).

Sounds good to me. If they're going to have composite bows, I think that'll be more than a fair trade for reducing their melee abilities (I assume that what you're referring to, anyway).

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

Cool. I was going to mention that, but you're obviuosly already way ahead of me. If I may make another suggestion, I would recommend looking at upping their morale and discipline stats as well. Not necessarily by a lot, but the Byzantines' heavy infantry was known for their discipline, especially during the Comneni dynasty.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Caravel

With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

If you want to disengage this type of cavalry from the faudal system of land grants that was introduced that is a fair renaming. If not the pronoiai can still stay in. Allagoion indeed is a term meaning "company - unit". Pronoia (singular) - Pronoiai (plural) means providence/provision and refers to the land grant given to nobles.

The system was introduced as a measure of getting the nobilities allegiance but in time created bigger problems as they've grown too powerful to control. Fragmentation and constant intrigue was the main two reasons of Byzantine collapse - they were simply too busy dividing spoils among them to fight off external enemies.

Clibanophoroi can come in two: something like (basic) Clibanophoroi (with lances or maces) and Clibanophoroi or Kataphaktoi toxotai as you suggest.

The rest sounds fair enough and quite good.

Will you give Byzantium any kind of lighter horse archer?

*EDIT*
Just thought now; weren't "Trapezitoi" thematic troops?

[caravel]

I've had a passive interest in that very question for a while now, but I have yet to find a satisfactory answer. I know that the Emperor sometimes rode into battle with an elite regiment of heavy cavalry call the Immortals (they were generally stationed in Constantinople), but it doesn't specify whether or not they were actually Kats of some type. My gut feeling tells me they were, but I have no proof of that.

The Athanatoi (The Immortals) are too early and belong to a previous dynasty from the 10th century IIRC. They were still a type of kataphraktoi/klibanophoroi though.

I'm not so sure about that, actually. Granting that I've not read up on all things Byzantine (or even a majority of it, I'm sure!), pretty much every source of material on the Byz I *have* come across has mentioned Kataphractoi/Klibanophoroi and Pronoia as being different things. Katanks were generally recruited from the middles classes of Imperial society, whereas the PA generally seem to have been restricted to the upper nobility and higher-ranking military officers.

The Pronoia was a land grant system, not a type of cavalry AFAIK, this is why I have looked at disassociation of the heavy cavalry away from the Pronoia name. These cavalry are actually Kataphraktoi, as all heavy Byzantine cavalry were referred to as Kataphraktoi. In the medieval byzantine empire the name appears to have referred to the man only, and not the man and the horse. The very heavy cavalry (the katapraktoi in the game) were referred to as Klibanophoroi, though this term appeared to have fallen out of use and is ignored by many writers

Yeah, I'm not sure what to tell you there. The only thing I can think of would be to take Byzantine Cavalry and rename them ("Prokursatores", maybe?). Possibly reduce their training costs and/or build requirements as well? That would be counter-intuitive, though, seeing as they should probably be roughly equal to Kataphractoi/Klibanaophoroi. Hmm, need to think on that one more....

I would say they are not really light enough to be considered as Prokursatores, and I'm unsure if that term was still in use during the timeframe of the game (as I'm unsure if klibanophoroi was still in use).

Sounds good to me. If they're going to have composite bows, I think that'll be more than a fair trade for reducing their melee abilities (I assume that what you're referring to, anyway).

I'm looking to introduce a composite bow once I get some idea of the stats required. I'm thinking of longbow type range and power though with less armour piercing ability due to the lower weight of the arrow?

Cool. I was going to mention that, but you're obviuosly already way ahead of me. If I may make another suggestion, I would recommend looking at upping their morale and discipline stats as well. Not necessarily by a lot, but the Byzantines' heavy infantry was known for their discipline, especially during the Comneni dynasty.

The Scutatoi would have carried the curved sword you can see in the Byzantine Infantry pic, and a long spear, which would have been the primary weapon. I'm sure that using Belisario's method I can perhaps get them to fight with both, but it wouldn't look right as they'd do all of their fighting with the swords and only charge/walk/run/stand with the spear.

If you want to disengage this type of cavalry from the faudal system of land grants that was introduced that is a fair renaming. If not the pronoiai can still stay in. Allagoion indeed is a term meaning "company - unit". Pronoia (singular) - Pronoiai (plural) means providence/provision and refers to the land grant given to nobles.

The issue is that the nobles that were part of the Pronoiai system were equipped as Kataphraktoi (heavy cavalry) soldiers and not somehow distinct from kataphraktoi. To me it would be like calling Feudal Knights "Feudal Units", wheras they would be better called simply "Knights".

Clibanophoroi can come in two: something like (basic) Clibanophoroi (with lances or maces) and Clibanophoroi or Kataphaktoi toxotai as you suggest.

I will probably have to create Klibanophoroi (old Kataphraktoi), Klibanophoroi Toxotai (old Kataphraktoi with added bows and reduced charge), Kataphraktoi (PA) and Kataphraktoi Toxotai (Byzantine Cavalry with stats brought up to PA level with less charge).

The rest sounds fair enough and quite good.

Will you give Byzantium any kind of lighter horse archer?

I'm looking into that. They may be the Prokursatores that Martok mentioned.

*EDIT*
Just thought now; weren't "Trapezitoi" thematic troops?

[naut]

The Scutatoi would have carried the curved sword you can see in the Byzantine Infantry pic, and a long spear, which would have been the primary weapon. I'm sure that using Belisario's method I can perhaps get them to fight with both, but it wouldn't look right as they'd do all of their fighting with the swords and only charge/walk/run/stand with the spear.

You could have them as a unit that can fight with spears and then "dismount" to have swords.

[The Unknown Guy]

About the Byzantines, and the Heavy Spear issue: AKA: My case for leaving Byz Infantry as 100 men units:

- In the Alexiad the battle descriptions seem to indicate that the byzantine military was more sword than spear oriented (Historical reasons)

- In vanilla TW, I think the issue is having a faction that instead of regular sergeants (Like catholic ones) gets a "man-at-arms" sergeant unit that is superb as man-at-arms but lacks punch when dealing with cavalry. In vanilla, this is supplemented with mercenary corps, althrough this is disabled in the pocket mod.

- My case: remove armored spearmen, put Byzantine infantry back at 100 men units so they act as "sword sergeants", and force the byzantines to use general spearmen as anticavalry defense. It presents quite a dillema, and makes the faction general land strategy quite different, based on mass men at arms and a few spearmen as support (you will not get pike shoves, as your infantry will cut through enemy spearmen like butter, but likewise, unless you´re in a hill, not bringing around one or two regular spear units to bear the blunt of cavalry charges will decimate your forces.)



About the compound bow: quite the contrary: the lower weight of the arrow would diminish the distance, not the armor piercing capabilities, methinks. Think: Crossbows.

The "special" bows get their added power from the elastic power drawn from the frame. Longbows had a huge arch and thus greater range and armor piercing capabilities (as well as long flying arrows, I guess). Compound bows have a complex arch, and are usually made of materials of greater tension, like bone, so for their size they have a bigger punch, as well. Crossbows use metal , and thus are able to hurl projectiles at great speeds.

(This reminds me of a class of physics from first year of college, when, while studying arches and tension, the teacher for some reason started speaking about the english longbowmen, and how they had found out that arrows launched from a bow with a greater arch could pierce platemail. "which they found... well, interesting, for their armies")

[caravel]

You could have them as a unit that can fight with spears and then "dismount" to have swords.

I've though about that one, but would prefer not to go down that route. It seems wrong to have the unit irreversibly lose their spears before the battle starts...

About the Byzantines, and the Heavy Spear issue: AKA: My case for leaving Byz Infantry as 100 men units:

- In the Alexiad the battle descriptions seem to indicate that the byzantine military was more sword than spear oriented (Historical reasons)

I've never read anything to that effect. The sword is generally a much more romantic, christian and chivalrous weapon, and features a lot in historical texts because running the enemy through with a sword sounds much more heroic than pranging his horse with a spear then jabbing the rider through the chest once he's fallen off. The spear was much more commonly used in open warfare in medieval western and central europe also. I have seen numerous images of byzantine spearheads and references to the "Kontarioi" (spearmen) or "Skutatoi" (shieldmen) infantry that were equipped with them. The byzantine units were combined arms units by all accounts, with archers in the center of the formation. The heavy infantry in the formation formed the outer ranks and were armed with kontarion (heavy spear) and paramerion (scimitar type sword) or spathion (long sword). The spear was the primary weapon of the Skutatoi with the sword stowed as a back up weapon.

- In vanilla TW, I think the issue is having a faction that instead of regular sergeants (Like catholic ones) gets a "man-at-arms" sergeant unit that is superb as man-at-arms but lacks punch when dealing with cavalry. In vanilla,

This is the CA's game "balancing" tricks, and not historical accuracy at work. Despite these attempts at balancing, the Byzantine are still highly overpowered and imbalanced due, quite simply, to their 8 and 9 star royalty and nothing much else.

this is supplemented with mercenary corps, althrough this is disabled in the pocket mod.

Mercenaries are disabled for the simple fact that they are an exploit and the AI cannot use them.

- My case: remove armored spearmen, put Byzantine infantry back at 100 men units so they act as "sword sergeants", and force the byzantines to use general spearmen as anticavalry defense. It presents quite a dillema, and makes the faction general land strategy quite different, based on mass men at arms and a few spearmen as support (you will not get pike shoves, as your infantry will cut through enemy spearmen like butter, but likewise, unless you´re in a hill, not bringing around one or two regular spear units to bear the blunt of cavalry charges will decimate your forces.)

There are no "Sword Sergeants". The Byzantine infantry do not have any cavalry defence bonus and giving this to the sword wielders would be wrong IMHO. The skutatoi, the historical spear armed byantine infantry, need to to replace the current byzantine swordsmen for this reason. Restoring everything back to the vanilla setup, would defeat the object of this mod.

About the compound bow: quite the contrary: the lower weight of the arrow would diminish the distance, not the armor piercing capabilities, methinks. Think: Crossbows.

I'm not sure about that. Crossbows are unflighted bolts that are almost always fired on a pretty flat trajectory. There is no real comparison. As to whether less weight would decrease range, that seems to against the laws of physics somehow?? Surely with such projectiles it was all about balance?

[Belisario]

We've a way to go yet. Before this next release I hope to be able to turn out working lbm files for the battle map uniticons. If I can't do that, then the release will have to be delayed until I can.

I’m able to save working lbm files with Ultimate Paint. But in my lbm files the faction colours (the green/pink colours that in the game are replaced for the colours of each faction) don’t work, though this little - and irritating – problem is irrelevant for the functionality of the lbm file. Make sure that you save the file as a lbm (unitname.LBM) of 256 colours, otherwise UP will save the image as an iff file. You can also create a working lbm with the Dragon Mtw Editor.

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

Many Byzantine soldiers of the post-Manzikert era were maintained by grants of land called “pronoiai” (literally “providences” or “solicitudes”). The pronoia-holder, typically a native heavy cavalryman (though as early as Manuel I’s reign “pronoiai” were being granted to foreigners), was properly called a pronoiar (Greek sing. “pronoiarios” / pl. “pronoiarioi”), but was more commonly known simply as a “stratiotes” (literally “soldier”; pl. “stratiotai”). Latin mercenaries and their descendants also received pronoia fiefs in return for their services; these Latin pronoiars were known as “kavallarios” (from the Latin “caballarius; pl. “kavallarioi”). “Kavallarioi” were socially the equivalent of native pronoia-soldiers (“Stratiotai”) and became the best equipped soldiers of the 13th Byzantine cavalry. I think the Byzantine Lancers could be renamed as “Stratiotai” or “Pronoiarioi Stratiotai” and the Pronoiai Allagion as “Kavallarioi” or “Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi”.

I’ve found this interesting post in another forum:

Latinikon: Frankish heavy cavalry (initially Norman and German mercenaries) filled the void left by the decline of native heavy cavalry starting in the mid 11th century. By the 1060’s they represented the largest contingent of heavy cavalry in the Byzantine army with approximately 3,000 serving by 1071. After the First Crusade, they were primarily recruited from the various Crusader States. Their numbers also included at times soldiers provided from allied kingdoms such as the 500 Flemish knights sent as a gift to Alexios Komnenos in 1092. By 1100 the old tagmatic cavalry units had been either destroyed or disbanded and except for the nobles and retainers of the extended Komnenian family (supported through pronoia), the Latin’s were the Byzantine’s sole heavy cavalry force during the Komnenian period. After the Fourth Crusade, Latin heavy cavalrymen were recruited from the impoverished Latin Kingdom of Constantinople and from Frankish Greece. Frankish knights along with Cuman small holding soldiers were the backbone of the Nicean army with the Latin’s distinguishing themselves at the battle of Antioch in 1211. After the Nicean's captured Constantinople in 1261, Latin pronoiars known as Kavallarioi were likely the best equipped soldiers in Byzantine employ. Kavallarioi, who first appear in Nicean Smyrna in the 1220’s, were socially the equivalent of native pronoia soldiers (Stratiotai) but wore heavier armour and rode large war horses in contrast to the Stratiotai who preferred smaller (and faster) Turkish or Hungarian mounts.

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

There are a confusing number of names to refer the Byzantine Infantry. I think “Skoutatoi” is a valid term for the Byzantine infantrymen; its etymology derives from the term “Skouta”, a large infantry shield. Alternative names are “Kontaratoi” (spearmen), “Spatharioi” (swordsmen), “Peltastoi” (light or medium infantryman), etc. If you want maintain the old Byzantine Infantry you could adopt other solutions, for instance renaming these units as Skutatoi Swordsmen and Skutatoi Spearmen. This is a large matter of debate.

These words from the ChivalricTW forum posted by a Greek speaker are interesting:

Zenith Darksea

I posted this at stratcommandcenter.com, but I thought I'd post it here as well for good measure.

They're absolutely fantastic, but I see that you still can't get the Greek right. Please, for the love of a twisted pedant like myself, try and make sure that the Greek names of Byzantine units actually make sense in Greek. For example:

Tagmata Klibanophoron should be Klibanophoron Tagma
Trapezitae should be Trapezitai
Themata Spatharioi should be Thematikoi Spatharioi or Thematon Spatharioi
Dynatoi Oiketai should be Dynastou Oiketai (I assume you're attempting to say 'Emperor's Retainers'?)
Themata Kontaratoi should be Thematikoi Kontaratoi or Thematon Kontaratoi
Varrangoi Tagmata should be Varangion Tagma
Latinikon Mercenaries were much better as Latinikoi, or would also be good as Latinikoi Misthophoroi
Skythikon Mercenaries likewise would be better as Skythikoi or Skythikoi Misthophoroi

These Greek corrections of mine, even if I do say so myself, are much more elegant, idiomatic, and correct.

Now, as for the Exkoubitores, you may well refer to them as a 'Tagma' (remember, it is one Tagma and two Tagmata) but a 'Skoutatos' could be any infantryman practically, as by this point in history the Skouta/Skouton referred generally to large infantry shields. Historically the word 'Skoutatos' was much more likely to refer to an ordinary infantryman than anyone else. So you might just leave the name at 'Exkoubitores'.

The exact translation of Themata Taxeis is something like 'Provinces [and] Units'. In Greek, that just doesn't make any sense. The Pronoiarioi or Pronoiarion Allagion would be a good unit for the late period (CA's original Pronoia Allagion was totally ungrammatical - it translates as 'Foresight [and] Battalion').

Incidentally, I added the 'and' in square brackets because in Greek, when you have two nominatives next to each other that are inapposite, they take on a predicative role rather than attributive. In other words, they come out with the sense of 'a something and a something else' rather than 'a something something'. It's hard to explain to non-linguists!

[The Unknown Guy]

As to whether less weight would decrease range, that seems to against the laws of physics somehow??

Try to throw a long distance a bundle of cloth, little grasshopper :p

It does not go against the laws of physics. Objects without weight do not travel far

[caravel]

So, questions/observations (again):

1) Are Klibanophoroi (I mean the type of Kataphraktoi in the game) simply too eary to be in the game?

2) I'm happy with "Stratiotai" / "Pronoiarioi Stratiotai" and "Kavallarioi" / "Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi" based on what you've mentioned about the post manzikert era, which is actually quite an important point that I hadn't paid enough attention to.

3) Regarding the Skutatoi, I have read that the Kontaratoi was the newer term, so it may be best to stick with that? The Byzantine Infantry could be preserved, or used as a dismount unit as Rythmic suggested (that way fans of the old infantry could field them in battle, but the AI would never use them). They [the old paramerion equipped Byzantine Infantry] would be renamed as Skutatoi I suppose?

4) With regards to Byzantine Cavalry, would they also be a Pronoiarioi unit?

[Belisario]

So, questions/observations (again):

1) Are Klibanophoroi (I mean the type of Kataphraktoi in the game) simply too eary to be in the game?

The question about Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi is often a large matter of debate. In the post-Manzikert era the main source of heavy cavalry for Byzantium was the pronoia system and the mercenaries. Cavalrymen with horse armour like the soldier in the Kataphraktoi info pic were not many. However the retainers of the Byzantine rulers or generals and some units of the imperial guard perhaps were equipped in such way. You could maintain the Kataphraktoi as a 20 man BG unit or even create a BG unit called Dynatoi Oiketai (Magnates' retainers) and maintain the 40 man Kataphrakoi unit (but very expensives, only available in the Early era and two years to train).

3) Regarding the Skutatoi, I have read that the Kontaratoi was the newer term, so it may be best to stick with that? The Byzantine Infantry could be preserved, or used as a dismount unit as Rythmic suggested (that way fans of the old infantry could field them in battle, but the AI would never use them). They [the old paramerion equipped Byzantine Infantry] would be renamed as Skutatoi I suppose?

Kontaratoi --- Byzantine Spearmen
Skutatoi --- Byzantine Infantry

I agree with you, for our purpose it's a good solution (remember that we don't go to write the definitive guide about the Byzantine army).

4) With regards to Byzantine Cavalry, would they also be a Pronoiarioi unit?

I think this unit could be preserve to represent the huge amount of Pecheneg, Cuman, Alan, Turk mercenaries in Byzantine service during the period covered by MTW. There are several terms for these soldiers who mostly fought as light horse-archers: Skythikoi for Pechenegs and Cumans, Tourkopouloi for christianised Turks, Vardariotai for an elite guard unit formed by Turks or Hungarians settled in the Vardar valley, Alanoi or Massagetoi for Alans.