MTW Pocket Mod: Units, Buildings and Unit Stats

[caravel]

Thanks Belisario, I had thought the crossbow might be a shield in frames but wasn't sure. I did notice it in the files in the MShelm directory though.

The Skutatoi are finished and working, with one hitch. The unit icon on the battle map. I can't get a program (tried psp and ultimate paint) to save .lbm files small enough so as not to crash the battle map, or at least I think that's the problem. They're currently using a copy of the Byzantine Infantry unit icon, which doesn't cause a crash. The black spots need cleaning off the bifs as well, but apart from that the .bifs have come out ok... ok by my standards anyway.

The Swedish Crossbows (name required) are also finished and working! The problem was that I had inadvertently given them an armour value of 0.......

Once I get these sorted I'll get onto some Byzantine, Janissary and Ottoman renaming.

[Martok]

The Swedish Crossbows (name required) are also finished and working! The problem was that I had inadvertently given them an armour value of 0.......

Once I get these sorted I'll get onto some Byzantine, Janissary and Ottoman renaming.

Huzzah!

Just out of curiosity (and NOT to nag - I'm in no hurry ), do you have any idea when the 0.6 version will be ready for download? I'm just wondering if I'll have at least another week or two to play some more of my Fatamid campaign (on the 0.5 version)....

[caravel]

We've a way to go yet. Before this next release I hope to be able to turn out working lbm files for the battle map uniticons. If I can't do that, then the release will have to be delayed until I can.

The Skutatoi are basically based on Chivalric Sergeants stats at present, but I would prefer to move away from that set formula, giving them different strengths and weaknesses to the former. Their info pic is the same as byzantine infantry except they are holding a spear instead of a sword. The same goes for their review panel icon. In battle they also look the same as Byzantine Infantry except that they carry a spear, or one could say that they look identical to Saracen Infantry except with the Byzantine Infantry shield.

I have some more questions/proposals/suggestions for the learned amongst us to peruse:

1) Were Kataphrakoi/Klibanophoroi actually the bodyguard units for Byzantine Royalty? If so which one (see below first).

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

3) The Kataphraktoi in the game should definitely be Klibanophoroi, the all over armoured man and horse. There should probably be two type of Klibanophoroi, those armed with bows ("Klibanophoroi Toxotai"?) and those without. Historically both types would have been used probably within the same unit. It would have varied alot. The problem with MTW is that if we create only one type of Klibanophoroi with a bow, the AI will use it primarily as a horse archer and not unleash it's full potential.

4) Byzantine Cavalry would be the bow armed version of Kataphraktoi, my greek is not good, so perhaps someone can come up with a name for these "Kataphraktoi Horse Archers" ("Kataphraktoi Toxotai"?).

5) For Byzantine Lancers, perhaps "Trapezitoi" would be a good name? I have seen alot of references to this on the net, albeit mostly at wargaming minatures sites. I could do with finding some more reliable information. It appears that they may have been javelin armed cavalry similar to Jinetes.

6) I also think that the Psiloi need to be introduced, that is the light infantry. These would have to be based on the Trebizone Archers (currently the Toxotai hat look similalar to Ottoman Infanry/Bulgarians Brigands in battle but have the Treb Archers stats). To do this I would replicate the Toxotai but remove the shields and slightly nerf their stats. As a compromise they would of course get the composite bow once it's up and running. The Psiloi would then take over from the old Toxotai, possibly with slighly improved stats (no decisions on stats yet).

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

-Edit: Note to self: Check the Swedish Peasants' charge animation is working correctly. I have used the charge script from militia sergeants in order that their axes be visible when charging, but I didn't pay any attention to whether it was working or not.

[Martok]

1) Were Kataphrakoi/Klibanophoroi actually the bodyguard units for Byzantine Royalty? If so which one (see below first).

I've had a passive interest in that very question for a while now, but I have yet to find a satisfactory answer. I know that the Emperor sometimes rode into battle with an elite regiment of heavy cavalry call the Immortals (they were generally stationed in Constantinople), but it doesn't specify whether or not they were actually Kats of some type. My gut feeling tells me they were, but I have no proof of that.

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

I'm not so sure about that, actually. Granting that I've not read up on all things Byzantine (or even a majority of it, I'm sure!), pretty much every source of material on the Byz I *have* come across has mentioned Kataphractoi/Klibanophoroi and Pronoia as being different things. Katanks were generally recruited from the middles classes of Imperial society, whereas the PA generally seem to have been restricted to the upper nobility and higher-ranking military officers.

3) The Kataphraktoi in the game should definitely be Klibanophoroi, the all over armoured man and horse. There should probably be two type of Klibanophoroi, those armed with bows ("Klibanophoroi Toxotai"?) and those without. Historically both types would have been used probably within the same unit. It would have varied alot. The problem with MTW is that if we create only one type of Klibanophoroi with a bow, the AI will use it primarily as a horse archer and not unleash it's full potential.

4) Byzantine Cavalry would be the bow armed version of Kataphraktoi, my greek is not good, so perhaps someone can come up with a name for these "Kataphraktoi Horse Archers" ("Kataphraktoi Toxotai"?).

Yeah, I'm not sure what to tell you there. The only thing I can think of would be to take Byzantine Cavalry and rename them ("Prokursatores", maybe?). Possibly reduce their training costs and/or build requirements as well? That would be counter-intuitive, though, seeing as they should probably be roughly equal to Kataphractoi/Klibanaophoroi. Hmm, need to think on that one more....

5) For Byzantine Lancers, perhaps "Trapezitoi" would be a good name? I have seen alot of references to this on the net, albeit mostly at wargaming minatures sites. I could do with finding some more reliable information. It appears that they may have been javelin armed cavalry similar to Jinetes.

It's as good a name as any. I wasn't able to find anything on them either, so I'd just say go for it.

6) I also think that the Psiloi need to be introduced, that is the light infantry. These would have to be based on the Trebizone Archers (currently the Toxotai hat look similalar to Ottoman Infanry/Bulgarians Brigands in battle but have the Treb Archers stats). To do this I would replicate the Toxotai but remove the shields and slightly nerf their stats. As a compromise they would of course get the composite bow once it's up and running. The Psiloi would then take over from the old Toxotai, possibly with slighly improved stats (no decisions on stats yet).

Sounds good to me. If they're going to have composite bows, I think that'll be more than a fair trade for reducing their melee abilities (I assume that what you're referring to, anyway).

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

Cool. I was going to mention that, but you're obviuosly already way ahead of me. If I may make another suggestion, I would recommend looking at upping their morale and discipline stats as well. Not necessarily by a lot, but the Byzantines' heavy infantry was known for their discipline, especially during the Comneni dynasty.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Caravel

With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

If you want to disengage this type of cavalry from the faudal system of land grants that was introduced that is a fair renaming. If not the pronoiai can still stay in. Allagoion indeed is a term meaning "company - unit". Pronoia (singular) - Pronoiai (plural) means providence/provision and refers to the land grant given to nobles.

The system was introduced as a measure of getting the nobilities allegiance but in time created bigger problems as they've grown too powerful to control. Fragmentation and constant intrigue was the main two reasons of Byzantine collapse - they were simply too busy dividing spoils among them to fight off external enemies.

Clibanophoroi can come in two: something like (basic) Clibanophoroi (with lances or maces) and Clibanophoroi or Kataphaktoi toxotai as you suggest.

The rest sounds fair enough and quite good.

Will you give Byzantium any kind of lighter horse archer?

*EDIT*
Just thought now; weren't "Trapezitoi" thematic troops?

[caravel]

I've had a passive interest in that very question for a while now, but I have yet to find a satisfactory answer. I know that the Emperor sometimes rode into battle with an elite regiment of heavy cavalry call the Immortals (they were generally stationed in Constantinople), but it doesn't specify whether or not they were actually Kats of some type. My gut feeling tells me they were, but I have no proof of that.

The Athanatoi (The Immortals) are too early and belong to a previous dynasty from the 10th century IIRC. They were still a type of kataphraktoi/klibanophoroi though.

I'm not so sure about that, actually. Granting that I've not read up on all things Byzantine (or even a majority of it, I'm sure!), pretty much every source of material on the Byz I *have* come across has mentioned Kataphractoi/Klibanophoroi and Pronoia as being different things. Katanks were generally recruited from the middles classes of Imperial society, whereas the PA generally seem to have been restricted to the upper nobility and higher-ranking military officers.

The Pronoia was a land grant system, not a type of cavalry AFAIK, this is why I have looked at disassociation of the heavy cavalry away from the Pronoia name. These cavalry are actually Kataphraktoi, as all heavy Byzantine cavalry were referred to as Kataphraktoi. In the medieval byzantine empire the name appears to have referred to the man only, and not the man and the horse. The very heavy cavalry (the katapraktoi in the game) were referred to as Klibanophoroi, though this term appeared to have fallen out of use and is ignored by many writers

Yeah, I'm not sure what to tell you there. The only thing I can think of would be to take Byzantine Cavalry and rename them ("Prokursatores", maybe?). Possibly reduce their training costs and/or build requirements as well? That would be counter-intuitive, though, seeing as they should probably be roughly equal to Kataphractoi/Klibanaophoroi. Hmm, need to think on that one more....

I would say they are not really light enough to be considered as Prokursatores, and I'm unsure if that term was still in use during the timeframe of the game (as I'm unsure if klibanophoroi was still in use).

Sounds good to me. If they're going to have composite bows, I think that'll be more than a fair trade for reducing their melee abilities (I assume that what you're referring to, anyway).

I'm looking to introduce a composite bow once I get some idea of the stats required. I'm thinking of longbow type range and power though with less armour piercing ability due to the lower weight of the arrow?

Cool. I was going to mention that, but you're obviuosly already way ahead of me. If I may make another suggestion, I would recommend looking at upping their morale and discipline stats as well. Not necessarily by a lot, but the Byzantines' heavy infantry was known for their discipline, especially during the Comneni dynasty.

The Scutatoi would have carried the curved sword you can see in the Byzantine Infantry pic, and a long spear, which would have been the primary weapon. I'm sure that using Belisario's method I can perhaps get them to fight with both, but it wouldn't look right as they'd do all of their fighting with the swords and only charge/walk/run/stand with the spear.

If you want to disengage this type of cavalry from the faudal system of land grants that was introduced that is a fair renaming. If not the pronoiai can still stay in. Allagoion indeed is a term meaning "company - unit". Pronoia (singular) - Pronoiai (plural) means providence/provision and refers to the land grant given to nobles.

The issue is that the nobles that were part of the Pronoiai system were equipped as Kataphraktoi (heavy cavalry) soldiers and not somehow distinct from kataphraktoi. To me it would be like calling Feudal Knights "Feudal Units", wheras they would be better called simply "Knights".

Clibanophoroi can come in two: something like (basic) Clibanophoroi (with lances or maces) and Clibanophoroi or Kataphaktoi toxotai as you suggest.

I will probably have to create Klibanophoroi (old Kataphraktoi), Klibanophoroi Toxotai (old Kataphraktoi with added bows and reduced charge), Kataphraktoi (PA) and Kataphraktoi Toxotai (Byzantine Cavalry with stats brought up to PA level with less charge).

The rest sounds fair enough and quite good.

Will you give Byzantium any kind of lighter horse archer?

I'm looking into that. They may be the Prokursatores that Martok mentioned.

*EDIT*
Just thought now; weren't "Trapezitoi" thematic troops?

[naut]

The Scutatoi would have carried the curved sword you can see in the Byzantine Infantry pic, and a long spear, which would have been the primary weapon. I'm sure that using Belisario's method I can perhaps get them to fight with both, but it wouldn't look right as they'd do all of their fighting with the swords and only charge/walk/run/stand with the spear.

You could have them as a unit that can fight with spears and then "dismount" to have swords.

[Belisario]

We've a way to go yet. Before this next release I hope to be able to turn out working lbm files for the battle map uniticons. If I can't do that, then the release will have to be delayed until I can.

I’m able to save working lbm files with Ultimate Paint. But in my lbm files the faction colours (the green/pink colours that in the game are replaced for the colours of each faction) don’t work, though this little - and irritating – problem is irrelevant for the functionality of the lbm file. Make sure that you save the file as a lbm (unitname.LBM) of 256 colours, otherwise UP will save the image as an iff file. You can also create a working lbm with the Dragon Mtw Editor.

2) With respect to the Pronoiai Allagion, I understand the pronoiars but why the "Allagion" bit? Surely that just means "unit", "formation" or "squadron" or whatever. I'm thinking that these should be renamed as "Pronoiai Kataphraktoi", but in all honesty the "Pronoiai" is redundant. These "knights" were already in existence before the gradual introduction and extension of the Pronoia system, they weren't created by it. Kataphraktoi generally meant "heavy cavalry" in the Medieval Byzantine Empire and was not the "cataphract" - as in all over armoured man and horse - synonymous with earlier times. I think "Kataphraktoi" would be a better name.

Many Byzantine soldiers of the post-Manzikert era were maintained by grants of land called “pronoiai” (literally “providences” or “solicitudes”). The pronoia-holder, typically a native heavy cavalryman (though as early as Manuel I’s reign “pronoiai” were being granted to foreigners), was properly called a pronoiar (Greek sing. “pronoiarios” / pl. “pronoiarioi”), but was more commonly known simply as a “stratiotes” (literally “soldier”; pl. “stratiotai”). Latin mercenaries and their descendants also received pronoia fiefs in return for their services; these Latin pronoiars were known as “kavallarios” (from the Latin “caballarius; pl. “kavallarioi”). “Kavallarioi” were socially the equivalent of native pronoia-soldiers (“Stratiotai”) and became the best equipped soldiers of the 13th Byzantine cavalry. I think the Byzantine Lancers could be renamed as “Stratiotai” or “Pronoiarioi Stratiotai” and the Pronoiai Allagion as “Kavallarioi” or “Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi”.

I’ve found this interesting post in another forum:

Latinikon: Frankish heavy cavalry (initially Norman and German mercenaries) filled the void left by the decline of native heavy cavalry starting in the mid 11th century. By the 1060’s they represented the largest contingent of heavy cavalry in the Byzantine army with approximately 3,000 serving by 1071. After the First Crusade, they were primarily recruited from the various Crusader States. Their numbers also included at times soldiers provided from allied kingdoms such as the 500 Flemish knights sent as a gift to Alexios Komnenos in 1092. By 1100 the old tagmatic cavalry units had been either destroyed or disbanded and except for the nobles and retainers of the extended Komnenian family (supported through pronoia), the Latin’s were the Byzantine’s sole heavy cavalry force during the Komnenian period. After the Fourth Crusade, Latin heavy cavalrymen were recruited from the impoverished Latin Kingdom of Constantinople and from Frankish Greece. Frankish knights along with Cuman small holding soldiers were the backbone of the Nicean army with the Latin’s distinguishing themselves at the battle of Antioch in 1211. After the Nicean's captured Constantinople in 1261, Latin pronoiars known as Kavallarioi were likely the best equipped soldiers in Byzantine employ. Kavallarioi, who first appear in Nicean Smyrna in the 1220’s, were socially the equivalent of native pronoia soldiers (Stratiotai) but wore heavier armour and rode large war horses in contrast to the Stratiotai who preferred smaller (and faster) Turkish or Hungarian mounts.

7) The Skutatoi would replace the old byzantine infantry. Their stats would be slightly adjusted to allow them to fare better vs sword infantry.

There are a confusing number of names to refer the Byzantine Infantry. I think “Skoutatoi” is a valid term for the Byzantine infantrymen; its etymology derives from the term “Skouta”, a large infantry shield. Alternative names are “Kontaratoi” (spearmen), “Spatharioi” (swordsmen), “Peltastoi” (light or medium infantryman), etc. If you want maintain the old Byzantine Infantry you could adopt other solutions, for instance renaming these units as Skutatoi Swordsmen and Skutatoi Spearmen. This is a large matter of debate.

These words from the ChivalricTW forum posted by a Greek speaker are interesting:

Zenith Darksea

I posted this at stratcommandcenter.com, but I thought I'd post it here as well for good measure.

They're absolutely fantastic, but I see that you still can't get the Greek right. Please, for the love of a twisted pedant like myself, try and make sure that the Greek names of Byzantine units actually make sense in Greek. For example:

Tagmata Klibanophoron should be Klibanophoron Tagma
Trapezitae should be Trapezitai
Themata Spatharioi should be Thematikoi Spatharioi or Thematon Spatharioi
Dynatoi Oiketai should be Dynastou Oiketai (I assume you're attempting to say 'Emperor's Retainers'?)
Themata Kontaratoi should be Thematikoi Kontaratoi or Thematon Kontaratoi
Varrangoi Tagmata should be Varangion Tagma
Latinikon Mercenaries were much better as Latinikoi, or would also be good as Latinikoi Misthophoroi
Skythikon Mercenaries likewise would be better as Skythikoi or Skythikoi Misthophoroi

These Greek corrections of mine, even if I do say so myself, are much more elegant, idiomatic, and correct.

Now, as for the Exkoubitores, you may well refer to them as a 'Tagma' (remember, it is one Tagma and two Tagmata) but a 'Skoutatos' could be any infantryman practically, as by this point in history the Skouta/Skouton referred generally to large infantry shields. Historically the word 'Skoutatos' was much more likely to refer to an ordinary infantryman than anyone else. So you might just leave the name at 'Exkoubitores'.

The exact translation of Themata Taxeis is something like 'Provinces [and] Units'. In Greek, that just doesn't make any sense. The Pronoiarioi or Pronoiarion Allagion would be a good unit for the late period (CA's original Pronoia Allagion was totally ungrammatical - it translates as 'Foresight [and] Battalion').

Incidentally, I added the 'and' in square brackets because in Greek, when you have two nominatives next to each other that are inapposite, they take on a predicative role rather than attributive. In other words, they come out with the sense of 'a something and a something else' rather than 'a something something'. It's hard to explain to non-linguists!

[caravel]

So, questions/observations (again):

1) Are Klibanophoroi (I mean the type of Kataphraktoi in the game) simply too eary to be in the game?

2) I'm happy with "Stratiotai" / "Pronoiarioi Stratiotai" and "Kavallarioi" / "Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi" based on what you've mentioned about the post manzikert era, which is actually quite an important point that I hadn't paid enough attention to.

3) Regarding the Skutatoi, I have read that the Kontaratoi was the newer term, so it may be best to stick with that? The Byzantine Infantry could be preserved, or used as a dismount unit as Rythmic suggested (that way fans of the old infantry could field them in battle, but the AI would never use them). They [the old paramerion equipped Byzantine Infantry] would be renamed as Skutatoi I suppose?

4) With regards to Byzantine Cavalry, would they also be a Pronoiarioi unit?

[Belisario]

So, questions/observations (again):

1) Are Klibanophoroi (I mean the type of Kataphraktoi in the game) simply too eary to be in the game?

The question about Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi is often a large matter of debate. In the post-Manzikert era the main source of heavy cavalry for Byzantium was the pronoia system and the mercenaries. Cavalrymen with horse armour like the soldier in the Kataphraktoi info pic were not many. However the retainers of the Byzantine rulers or generals and some units of the imperial guard perhaps were equipped in such way. You could maintain the Kataphraktoi as a 20 man BG unit or even create a BG unit called Dynatoi Oiketai (Magnates' retainers) and maintain the 40 man Kataphrakoi unit (but very expensives, only available in the Early era and two years to train).

3) Regarding the Skutatoi, I have read that the Kontaratoi was the newer term, so it may be best to stick with that? The Byzantine Infantry could be preserved, or used as a dismount unit as Rythmic suggested (that way fans of the old infantry could field them in battle, but the AI would never use them). They [the old paramerion equipped Byzantine Infantry] would be renamed as Skutatoi I suppose?

Kontaratoi --- Byzantine Spearmen
Skutatoi --- Byzantine Infantry

I agree with you, for our purpose it's a good solution (remember that we don't go to write the definitive guide about the Byzantine army).

4) With regards to Byzantine Cavalry, would they also be a Pronoiarioi unit?

I think this unit could be preserve to represent the huge amount of Pecheneg, Cuman, Alan, Turk mercenaries in Byzantine service during the period covered by MTW. There are several terms for these soldiers who mostly fought as light horse-archers: Skythikoi for Pechenegs and Cumans, Tourkopouloi for christianised Turks, Vardariotai for an elite guard unit formed by Turks or Hungarians settled in the Vardar valley, Alanoi or Massagetoi for Alans.

[caravel]

The question about Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi is often a large matter of debate. In the post-Manzikert era the main source of heavy cavalry for Byzantium was the pronoia system and the mercenaries. Cavalrymen with horse armour like the soldier in the Kataphraktoi info pic were not many. However the retainers of the Byzantine rulers or generals and some units of the imperial guard perhaps were equipped in such way. You could maintain the Kataphraktoi as a 20 man BG unit or even create a BG unit called Dynatoi Oiketai (Magnates' retainers) and maintain the 40 man Kataphrakoi unit (but very expensives, only available in the Early era and two years to train).

Well that's basically how Kataphraktoi are now, a 20 man scalable unit. So I suppose, keep the name, or rename them as Dynatoi Oiketai, and leave them as they are, but increase the dependencies and costs for raising new ones.

I think this unit could be preserve to represent the huge amount of Pecheneg, Cuman, Alan, Turk mercenaries in Byzantine service during the period covered by MTW. There are several terms for these soldiers who mostly fought as light horse-archers: Skythikoi for Pechenegs and Cumans, Tourkopouloi for christianised Turks, Vardariotai for an elite guard unit formed by Turks or Hungarians settled in the Vardar valley, Alanoi or Massagetoi for Alans.

Well the Steppe Horse Archers I've introduced will probably fill that role as would Alan Mercenary Cavalry. I was thinking of placing the Byzantine Cavalry on a par with the Pronoiarioi Stratiotai, but with bows and a reduced charge? If I were to do so, what sort of naming would we be looking at?