The Orthodox factions need more...

[Agent Smith]

I've started a new Russian campaign, and I really think the Orthodox factions need more. The only really unique thing about the Russians is the Iconic Art buildings. They have no troops that can help in obtaining a Swordsmith Guild. They have a limited troop selection. They don't have the Crusade or the Jihad ability that the other factions have.

They just need something else for flavor. Heck, even getting religious missions from a Patriarch would add a bit...

[MStumm]

The only really unique thing about the Russians is the Iconic Art buildings.

Byzantines have that too.

[Shahed]

Hi Smith,

I agree. This is something for 1.3.

You can change all this easily.

1.Orthodox Patriach Mod.

Screenshots.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2.You can add units to the Swordsmith's Guild triggers by adding the unit name, in correct syntax from EDU to the EDG. For example if you add this trigger to EDG you get 15 points for SwordSmith's Guld per Boyar Son Cavalry trained:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger EXAMPLE_Recruit_Sword_Unit
    WhenToTest UnitTrained

    Condition UnitType Boyar Sons

    Guild swordsmiths_guild s  15 

;------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.

[Whacker]

It'd be really nice if we had full access to the in-game models and animations. I really want to give my Byz back their beloved greek fire.

One thing I have done is given them a few more gunpowder-based siege engines to work with. I'd also really like to give them some other gunpowder based infantry, but I utterly stink at graphic manipulation. Plus I don't have/don't want to buy Photoshop, and most of the tutorials are for it as opposed to something free like Gimp.

[Shahed]

Whacker I would like to see that as well. IMO the Byzantines can be much improved over vanilla.

Check your PM ? I sent you a link to a guy who can help you, he may even do it for you.
He could use that publicity since there are so many Byzantine fans that would appreciate it. I think this is the best option.

Second option may be to get the guys at The Broken Crescent. They can do it for you in the blink of an eyelid. You can go to their forum and ask them to do it, and include it in their mod. This will make the mod more marketable and would benefit them. Be aware that they are pretty hard, and very quality oriented, so you might have to do some convincing. I'll support you if you need it.

I think I can do it, but it's a long process, and I'm already fully applied with Broken Crescent and another project. If I can help in any other way gimme a SHOOOOOOOUUUTTT !!!!

[Whacker]

I would like to see that as well.

Check your PM ? I sent you a link to a guy who can help you, he may even do it for you.

Yaya I saw that, still waiting for him to post that tutorial. I might give it a serious shot when he finally posts it, and if it's well written. The thing that I still think would be easiest by far would be if we had full access to the existing models so we could modify those if needed. I really don't understand why CA hardcoded a number of things this go around. For example the models for the Byz guard archers and mounted byz archers are the exact same, one's just done as mounted on a horse, the other is standing. In RTW you could make any infantry unit mounted by just sticking it on a horse and calling it cav... not so in M2, unless I'm missing something.

[Shahed]

I was editing my 1st post as you posted.

Hmm I don't know.

In BC they are heavily modding the models, check this link.

There is a tutorial here on the org, I'll try to find it. BTW your sig is pointing to Imageshack... lol!

[Agent Smith]

Hi Smith,

I agree. This is something for 1.3.

You can change all this easily.

1.Orthodox Patriach Mod.

Screenshots.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2.You can add units to the Swordsmith's Guild triggers by adding the unit name, in correct syntax from EDU to the EDG. For example if you add this trigger to EDG you get 15 points for SwordSmith's Guld per Boyar Son Cavalry trained:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger EXAMPLE_Recruit_Sword_Unit
    WhenToTest UnitTrained

    Condition UnitType Boyar Sons

    Guild swordsmiths_guild s  15 

;------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.

That's great! This is really helpful. It's a start to adding a little more flavor.

I'm going to do a little research on medieval Russia to see if I can find anything that would go great in the game. However, if they didn't get rid of the war wagons, at least the Russians would have had something that was somewhat unique...

[Shahed]

Good idea ! Be sure to let us know if you have something interesting. This link shows exactly what you want to do, you should read that. You might find it useful to read the whole thread actually. I don't know if this helps but there is a trigger tutorial here.

It is possible to fill a lot of the gaps in the game.

[Agent Smith]

You know what, I noticed that the Patriarch mod was made before 1.2 released. I don't want to overwrite game files if there have been additions in 1.2 to those files that the Patriarch mod uses.

Oh well...

[Shahed]

You know what, I noticed that the Patriarch mod was made before 1.2 released. I don't want to overwrite game files if there have been additions in 1.2 to those files that the Patriarch mod uses.

Oh well...

Good point !

90% or more mods are pre 1.20. If you want to use them you'll have to check the files of the mod vs the 1.20 files and see if any conflicts arise. In this case I think it's easy to do there are 3 or 4 files to check.

Anyway I've posted the question to Zeph to ask if it is compatible, and if he can update it if it isn't.

[Agent Smith]

Good point !

90% or more mods are pre 1.20. If you want to use them you'll have to check the files of the mod vs the 1.20 files and see if any conflicts arise. In this case I think it's easy to do there are 3 or 4 files to check.

Anyway I've posted the question to Zeph to ask if it is compatible, and if he can update it if it isn't.

I went through, and the 1.2 character trait file fixes the bishop problem (bishops now appear when a priest is recruited when there is a cathedral or huge cathedral). But, I know there are new traits. I keep seeing this "Fierce in Battle" trait on my generals that I don't remember ever seeing before.

I would just implement the changes mannually, but I don't know how he modified the strings.bin files, nor do I know how he got the unique Patriarch unit on the campaign map. Heck, I don't even see the trigger for the Russian Patriarch, so I don't even know how to get there

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the Russian triggers. Still need to know about the other things.

EDIT2: I also need to know how to limit the Patriarch to 1 at a time, or at least 1 at a time for the Byzantines and the Russians (so they each get one).

[Shahed]

Hi Smith, I think it's easiest and best to contact Zeph (<-link) by PM or post a report in this (<-) thread. That way he can update it and repost, and everyone can enjoy it hasslefree. I've also posted in that report/feedback thread pointing him here so hopefully he comes along. But I'd encourage you to post there as well.

[Shahed]

He's replied. I dunno how long he will take.

[Shahed]

Well... he's done, the mod is now 1.20 compatible:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=89514&page=3

[HoreTore]

The russians actually have a very large unit roster. They have heavy lance cavalry, light cav, light horse archers, heavy horse archers, javelin cav, long range archers, good spearmen, heavy infanry, and of course, the jewel in the crown, Cossacks Musketeers, the second best gunpowder infantry in the game.

I can't think of anyone able to match that...

[Lacessit]

Apart from the Missing Patriarchs, I kinda like the Russian unit roster. what with the Boyars et al. They make for a very varied field, with infantry, heavy cav and HA tactics all possible.

Sure there's not an awful lot of specific buildings, but apart from the Muslim factions, I don't think there áre a lot of really specific buildings.

Still, I might want to look into that Patriarch mod myself ;)

[Shahed]

Personally, I love the Russian roster. I agree it could be better though, and I love the Steppe setting.

[Czar Alexsandr]

Ah yes. The Russian steppe is a amazing setting. I have so much fun sending my Druzhina and Boyar's all around the world from my base in the barren steepe.

I've done a lot of research on Russia in the medival times and would love to share my knowledge. Ask if you want to know something and if I don't know I'll try to find it. And if I can't find it I'll just say play as Russia because Mikhail has the best helmet in the game. Lol. Serriously though Russia, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, Poland, and Hungary are all very interesting to me. I'd be happy to lend my amatuer expertise.

[Shahed]

The educational power of games shall not be underestimated !

[Agent Smith]

I see what everyone is saying. I think that their roster is unique, however, it isn't necessarily large. I think they have one of the smallest unit roster other than the Byzantines, but don't quote me on that one. I will say that their armor upgrades and their looks are wonderful, and, from what I can tell, are pretty accurate.

I think I got spoiled from MTW. There seemed to be a very large, diverse selection, especially post VI. They had pikemen, halberdiers, Steppe Cavalry (light and heavy), Druzhina, horse archers, pavise crossbowmen/arbalests, etc. Maybe I'm just looking for a better militia selection, and that darn Gulay Gorod.

So, I guess I take back my complaint. Somewhat...

Ah yes. The Russian steppe is a amazing setting. I have so much fun sending my Druzhina and Boyar's all around the world from my base in the barren steepe.

I've done a lot of research on Russia in the medival times and would love to share my knowledge. Ask if you want to know something and if I don't know I'll try to find it. And if I can't find it I'll just say play as Russia because Mikhail has the best helmet in the game. Lol. Serriously though Russia, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, Poland, and Hungary are all very interesting to me. I'd be happy to lend my amatuer expertise.

I would really like to know what Russia and Byzantium did during the crusades. I know there was a "Northern Crusade" where Catholic crusaders tried to launch attacks into Orthodox Russia, but other than that I don't know what they did during the period. If they are going to put Jerusalem as an objective for the Russians, there should be a reason for it. I understand Constantinople, but I don't see the connection between Russia and Jerusalem.

I think more missions and a better religious structure (the Patriarchs is a nice touch) would do wonders. Religion plays an interesting role in the other factions, whereas with the Orthodox it seems just limited to converting regions with your priests.

[Agent Smith]

Well... he's done, the mod is now 1.20 compatible:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=89514&page=3

Freakin' fantastic.

Did anyone tell you that you are the man, Sinan? You did all the dirty work for me

[Shahed]

LOL ! No problem.

...Swift as the wind... ATTACK LIKE FIRE !

[Czar Alexsandr]

Russia was a target of a Teutonic crusade. The great general Alexsandr Nevsky was alive during this time and defeated the Teuton's in battle. He deployed his spears at the front and had his Druzhina attack from the back destroying the Teutonic crusade utterly. This was as far as I know the only crusade against a Orthodox nation. During the time of the Crusades Russia was founding the frontier settlements Nizhiny-Novogorod (Bulgar.) and Rostov (Sarkel.) They were essentially making themselves the supreme power of the northren steepes. And then.. the mongols came.

Meanwhile, Byzantium acctualy invented the idea of the crusade.. albeit they had a different idea. Byzantium wanted Catholic mercenaries to help them fight the Turks and recapture Armenia, Georgia, Eddesa etc. However the Pope viewed it as an oppurtunity to retake the holy lands and sent good catholic boys instead of money loving thugs. Constantinople was sacked by crusaders in the Fourth crusade I believe. They lost the capital Constantinople for a few years to.

As for why Russia want's Jerusalem I have no clue. Russia was primarily interested in taking over the steepes, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland, Georgia, and the like.

Hope this has been informative, maybe even answered some questions. If not ask again and I might get it right!

[Daveybaby]

Personally i love the russian roster. Its pretty much the most unique faction roster in the game IMO (in terms of play style), so complaining that the russians 'lack flavour' is something i find quite bizarre.

I agree that their roster could still use a little work though. For example, what is the point in dismounted druzhina and dismounted boyar sons having the exact same stats? Why? Just.... why? At a total loss to figure that one out - i'm still half conviced it's a copy-paste bug

Surely it would make some kind of sense to give dis. boyars their javelins back (and maybe nerf their melee attack a bit to match their reduced melee compared to druzh) to (a) give them some differentiation from the dis. druzh, and (b) they have javelins when theyre on their horses - what happened to them? Eh? EH? EH???!?!?!??!

Also:
Boyar Sons - 5 morale
Dismounted Boyars - 9 morale

Where did that extra 4 morale come from? Don't they <i>like</i> being on their horses? Maybe theyre allergic, in which case joining the cavalry wasnt the smartest of career moves.

to summarise:
What Dismounted Boyar Sons should look like in a sane world and not the messed up twisted world we actually live in god help us all:
Cost : 670 (down from 690 to match the mounted cost - why would dismounted cost more?)
Maint : 150 (no change)
Missile Attack : 8 (armour piercing jav)
Melee Attack : 9 (armour piercing - down from 11 to match the mounted stats)
Armour : 5 (no change)
Skill : 4 (down from 5 to match mounted)
Shield : 6 (unchanged - mounted units generally have lower shield ratings than dismounted)
Morale : 5 (down from 9 to match mounted stat).

This gives you a pretty interesting jav skirmisher as opposed to an identical unit to the dis. druzh. I really do think the original version must be a bug...
I'd produce a mod but i dont have the first clue how to go about getting them to throw javelins.

And while i'm at it, its also kinda boring how the peasant archers and militia archers are exactly the same. Change peasant archers to Dismounted Kazakhs (or call them Cossack Archers or something), give them minor stat boosts (e.g. +1 missile attack, +1 or 2 melee/defence skill), and boost the price to 300 purchase, 125 maintenance and youve got a cheap & cheerful skirmisher (which is what the russians are all about IMO) instead of a bog standard archer.


The byz seem to be in the same boat. From looking at the stats (havent played with them yet, so dont really know if this translates into actual battle performance) they also have lots of virtually identical units. e.g. 3 types of spearmen, all of which have virtually indential stats. Byz. Inf and Dis. Byz. Lancers are also indentical.

[Agent Smith]

Personally i love the russian roster. Its pretty much the most unique faction roster in the game IMO (in terms of play style), so complaining that the russians 'lack flavour' is something i find quite bizarre.

Go back and read my first post. My main point was that Orthodox factions lack a lot of gameplay factors that the other two religions have. That's more of a campaign map kind of complaint, I suppose. I tried clarifying that later. The roster is unique, I just wanted it to be a little larger.

My main complaint with the Russian roster was just its size. I like the units they have now, I just want a little more, that's all. Just look at their archery range. They only have two Archery units recruitable at a castle. They don't even have a castle crossbow unit.

Anyway, that's all I was trying to get at.

BTW, I like your unit suggestions. I may have to implement those. Maybe I'll tone down the Boyar Sons and give them some javs later...

[Agent Smith]

As for why Russia want's Jerusalem I have no clue. Russia was primarily interested in taking over the steepes, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland, Georgia, and the like.

I think that it would make mor sense if their victory conditions included Kiev and Constantinople. Kiev was the capital of the Kievan Rus and was one of the main cities that was leveled by the Mongol invasion, so it should be a part of the victory conditions.

And if I can't find it I'll just say play as Russia because Mikhail has the best helmet in the game.

I hate to tell you, but they changed all of the portraits of the starting family in 1.2.

[Daveybaby]

Ah, sorry - i mixed the two bits of your post up and thought that you were complaining that the russians needed more catholic-style combat units in order to make them more interesting. Oops.

[Whacker]

Speaking of orthodox... Anyone noticed the rate of priests going heretic is way up? I've lost a decent number of guys to heresy throughout my game, much moreso than I had in my last English campaign (which was 1.02 leaked). Anyone else concur? Is this universal now, not just for orthodox?

[Agent Smith]

Speaking of orthodox... Anyone noticed the rate of priests going heretic is way up? I've lost a decent number of guys to heresy throughout my game, much moreso than I had in my last English campaign (which was 1.02 leaked). Anyone else concur? Is this universal now, not just for orthodox?

I've noticed that with my Russian campaign. But, you have to keep in mind that many parts of the steppes are heavily pagan. Riga, Vilnius, Helsinki, Bulgar, Caffa, and Sarkel are all 30% or less Orthodox. That may have something to do with the rate, because it takes a while in the early game to get those levels going higher.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that once you move West into Catholic Europe, it is essentially 0% Orthodox. And with the Byzantines, you are surrounded by Islamic Turkey and Catholic factions to the West, with 0% of your faith.

With that being said, religion plays a huge role in the early game for the Orthodox and throughout, so they should have a little more religious flavor in game. In Early Catholic games, especially in central Europe and the British Isles, there is really no point to priests in a lot of the game other than getting elected Cardinal.