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Thread: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Just noticed that there is a programme on the Moors tonight at 9pm.

    Having just completed a Moorish campaign I might watch it.
    Didz
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    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    What's it called, I might check it out. That's if I can get it, i'm watching History right now and it the guide says nothing about the Moors.
    Last edited by Xehh II; 05-14-2007 at 20:30.
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xehh II
    What's it called, I might check it out. That's if I can get it, I’m watching History right now and it the guide says nothing about the Moors.
    Bit late but its called 'The Moors', I'm watching it at the moment and its very good. I've already seen Toledo, Cordoba and Valencia which was interesting to see in real life. And its suggested a possible explanation to the mystery of why Moorish troops were described by eyewitness accounts as 'Black as Pitch' when their commanders were frequently pale skinned and red haired.

    It was very good and what follows is a sort of potted version of the understanding I gained from it.

    It appears that the Muslim princes of El Andalusia were a little too liberal for their own good. Not only were they tolerant of other religions but their main focus was on promoting culture and learning. Cordoba for example had no less then seventy libraries containing over half a million books and scholars from all over Europe travelled to Spain to study everything from medicine to mathematics’ alongside Muslim, Jewish and Christian academic's. There are texts still in existence of books translated from Greek and Arabic, some copied from text by scholars as well known as Aristotle the prefaces of which include introductions by German scholars who worked on their translation into Latin, and the margins of which contain notes and explanations in just about every European language in existence at the time.

    Modern Muslim fundamentalists attribute the loss of Spain directly to this obsession with logic over the divine revelations of Allah, and in part they are correct, but only in part.

    The fact is that the Muslim princes of Andalusia were so focussed on culture and learning that they neglected their military and their defences. The people of Andalusia were not required to serve in the armed forces and so their army was hard pressed to find enough men to man the countries defences. Not only that but money was spent mainly on art, culture and learning rather than fortresses and weapons and the countries safety was largely reliant upon the goodwill which was fostered with its Christian neighbours.

    Thus when their Christian neighbours began raiding and destroying the border provinces, and demanding money in return for protection the Muslims found themselves with little choice but to pay the tribute or suffer the destruction. Large area's of northern Andalusia were laid waste, crops burned in the fields, tree's cut down and irrigation canals broached. In desperation, the Muslim princes began to hire mercenaries, initially from the Christians themselves, but when these proved less than reliable they turned to the ruler of Al Maghreb (Morocco) across the Mediterranean Sea.

    The warriors sent to aid the Andalucian princes were apparently not the same tribes of Berbers who assisted in the original invasion of Spain but were from further south in the Sahara region and were probably a mixture of Almohads and Almoravids. This explains the eyewitness accounts of these men being 'black skinned' tribesmen by Christians who fought them, as opposed to the lighter skinned warriors who originally helped to conquer Spain. They were also accompanied by camels and some accounts claim even elephants.

    This would also appear to explain the anomaly between armies of dark skinned troops being led by pale skinned generals. The dark skinned troops were the mercenaries from Morocco and presumably the lighter skinned generals were those of their employers who felt obliged to accompany them into battle. Whatever, the truth of this, it seems that these imported troops were a mixed blessing. Whilst they provided skilled manpower to combat the Christian raiders they were also extremely fundamental in their faith and they did not appreciate the way the people of Andalusia worshipped logic and beauty above the divine words of Allah. It appears that soon after their arrival they began to deliberately vandalise the art and cultural buildings which had been so lovingly created by their employers and so the Princes found themselves trapped between raiding Christians destroying their crops and angry allies destroying their artwork and demanding a return to fundamental teachings.

    At about this point it appears the entire kingdom fractured under the combined stress as cities decided to follow their own path. Some attempted to ally themselves with nearby friendly Christian rulers, others adopted the fundamentalist ideals of their new protectors. Civil war and chaos ensued, even between different factions of Almohad and Almoravid tribesmen as it seems everyone tried to grab or save what they could by whatever means seemed most suited to them. Palaces were burned to the ground, books destroyed, people were executed and murdered by their own countrymen and the enemy alike.

    Thus when the reconquista started in earnest Andalusia was little more than a wasted shell of independent cities trying desperately to survive and by 1492 only Gharnatah (Grenada) was left in Muslim hands.

    On Monday 2 January (1492) Isabella and Ferdinand left the camp with their army duly drawn up. The were dressed in Moorish robes especially designed and tailored for the occasion. As they came near to the Alhambra, Abu Abd-Allah rode out, accompanied by many of his knights, with the keys of the city in his hand. He tried to dismount in order to kiss the king's hand, but the king would not allow it.

    Instead, the Abu Abd-Allah kissed Ferdinand on the arm and gave him the keys of the city, saying 'Take the keys of your city, for I, and the men who are within, are your vassals.'
    You do well to weep like a woman for that which you could not defend like a man
    Admonishment by the mother of Sultan Abu 'abd-Allah Muhammad XII, the last Nasrid King of Gharnatah (Grenada) when he began to weep for the loss of his city.

    King Ferdinand took the keys and gave them to the queen . . . It was the end of Moorish rule in Spain.

    Conclusion

    I thought it was very interesting. I think its broadened my understanding of the background to the Moorish faction, though how much of it is accurate and truthful is difficult to judge except where there was physical evidence such as the annotated books and burnt palace ruins. It certainly didn't match the accepted history of Spain or the Reconquesta, but according to the programme that history has been rewritten at least twice most recently at the insistence of General Franco. So, basically its 'bollocks' like most history and its just a question as to how much of the information presented on the programme was 'bollocks' too.

    Couple of more the controversial claims was that El Cid former ruler of Valencia though not actually Muslim was quite happy to allow Muslims to live freely in his city and probably hired himself and his army out to Muslim Princes when the price was right.

    Also there was a long interview with the Countess Medina Sidona who claims that her ancestor the famous Christian Knight was most likely a Muslim, and that her family history was carefully rewritten to avoid the undue attentions of the inquisition. I actually found her evidence for this a little less than convincing but she seemed adamant about it.

    There were also all sorts of weird architectural anomalies such as Christian churches built after the Recoquista but with quotes from the Quoran combined with Christian icons, and supposedly Christian kings who built their palaces in Moorish styles complete with Arabic inscriptions and referring to themselves as Caliph rather than King. Indeed it seems that even Isabella and Ferdinand were not fanatically anti-muslim at all and were quite happy to embrace the ideals and culture of Muslim Spain so long as it didn't conflict with their own plans and power-base.

    All interesting stuff and as usual much more messy and confusing than past historians would like us to beleive.
    ++++
    Hmm! this begining to turn into a bit of blog. I'm still trying to make sense of the eyewitness accounts of Christian witnesses who claim that the warriors they fought were 'black as pitch' and other references which claim that Berbers (which theoretically included the Almohad and Almoravid's) were lighter skinned frequently with red hair. Either these were two different ethnic groups from the same area or someones not telling the truth.

    Interestingly, this book http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Moor-Jo...9221289&sr=8-3 and the comments posted about it suggest that I'm not alone in this confusion and it appears the enthnic/genetic history of the Moors is a bit of controversial issue.
    Last edited by Didz; 05-15-2007 at 16:17.
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Thank you, Didz, for calling attention to the show. Unfortunately I could not find it on the History Channel in my area. Fooey.
    I did very much enjoy your summary and will add more digging into this bit of real history to my spare time list.
    I constantly find that this game helps give a better appreciation of the history of the real world and I have to give considerable credit to the designers for their obvious love of the subject. And, it is finding the commentary such as yours that propels me into more research and so the cycle continues.

    Thanks,
    John

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    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    I didn't get it on my History Channel either.
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    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    hey nice summary and analysis and u are quite right about written history being bollocks for example Sri Lanka where i come from has a written history of about 3000 years. unfortunately the main source the "maha vansa" was written and maintained bt the buddhist monks. and any king who tried to reduce the clergy's influence at courst was conviniently ignored in the histories(or maybe later removed) while anyone who allowed the clergy to participate in the running of the country and built lots of temples etc etc usually had a lot written about him and got a title like great or.. u get the picture.

    ok got a bit sidetrakced just wanted to say nicely written thanks
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Yes! sorry the programme didn't finish until 10:30 pm and I was keen to summarize as much as could whilst it was fresh in my memory. That in turn led to me getting dragged into a lot of secondary research initially because I haven't got a photographic memory and therefore needed to check things like the name of the Nasrid King of Grenada to make sure I got it right. The net result being that I didn't actually finish until about 1am and I've just been back and corrected some of the spelling mistakes and added the internet link to the book I mentioned but forgot to link.

    Anyway, I'm glad you found my efforts worthwhile. Like Techstrider I find that playing games such as MTW2 act as the catalyst that encourages me to want to learn more about the history of the subject I'm playing, and that in turn actually enhances the enjoyment I get from playing the game.

    I feel I've gained a much greater appreciation of the Moorish faction from doing this and the fact that Moors seem to have got a pretty raw deal from historians merely increases my desire to try and uncover the truth. It seems that the Moors have been more or less squeezed out of history by the combined efforts of historians from both the Christian and Muslim factions.

    Spanish historians have worked long and hard to eradicate the contribution that the Moors had over the cultural and ethnic history of Spain and repainting the Reconquista as a Holy Crusade when in fact it was more like a scrabble for land and power. And families like the Medina-Sidona family are only now beginning to accept that their ancestors were actually Muslim and that there is Moorish blood in their veins and not just on their hands.

    At the same time Muslim historians are trying equally hard to claim that the Moors of Spain were not true Muslims at all, but were Christians pretending to follow the true faith in order to corrupt the word of Allah with false teachings based on science and logic.

    And into this sandwich of propaganda history it appears that even the descendants of the Moors themselves are trying to dis-associate themselves from their ancestors. Those still in Spain find it hard to admit their ancestors are were not the perfect Christians and of pure white ethnic stock as described in the Spanish history books. Those in Morocco apparently don't want to be associated with the Moorish tribes of African descent with their darker skins, nor with the large numbers of Moorish émigrés expelled from Spain by the inquisition and now labelled as fake Muslims, and so have tried to re-invent their ethnic roots to avoid both extremes.

    So, apparently it is very hard to determine today, exactly who or what the Moors were as nobody actually wants to accept ownership of the heritage even though everyone wants a slice of the credit for their achievements.

    The academic's who travelled to Al Andalusia to study in the Moorish Libraries and work with the Moorish academic's and who brought back knowledge like our current number system (1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.0), algrebra, chemistry and poetry conveniently forgot the names of the Moorish academic's that passed this knowledge to them, or helped them to discover it.

    The Moors even passed onto their Christian neighbours the art of mass paper production, which enabled the explosion of learning and record keeping in the Europe.

    Anyway, in terms of the game, it seems that combining Christian Mercenaries with Moroccan Mercenaries is a not particularly accurate historically and I ought to try and keep them separate and base their employment on specific cities to reflect the current policy of the local Sultan or Caliph. I should also avoid spending money on troops or military buildings, and give preference to culture and trade (which I actually do so that’s ok). And I should seek to placate my Christian neighbours with large tribute hand-outs. Hmm! not sure about that, I don't think I'm that cultured
    Last edited by Didz; 05-15-2007 at 16:20.
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    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    i agree that this game made me start reading about history much more as well. i started reading up on the crusades etc. have got the western perspective but still to readup on any eastern texts regarding this. problem is finding english translations.

    at the moment ive got a biography of Tarmalene and also a work of fiction based on the time of Tarmalene so its going to be interesting to see how the fiction and facts combine. well i'll get to that once ive read the first book of the ramayana series. The Ramayanaya is supposed to be a book of indian history like the Maha Bharata but they are highly ficitonalised to include gods, mythical creatures etc. the book i'm reading is an english series from an indian author. this too i suppose is a fictionalisation based broadsly on timelines and people from the Ramayana.

    oh and if u do continue to research the moors and come accross any mention of sri lanka i would be intereseted to know. the muslims of sri lanka are called "Sri Lankan Moors" just wondering if there is any connection. the sri lankan muslims are descendants of muslim/arab traders who arrived in the country probably during the time of the middle ages, definitely before the first eauropean arrived so simetime before 1500 (when the portugese first landed) however we wear turkish not moorish hats (if one does indeed exist) at weddings lol probably too confused to know who we are lol
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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    The origin cannot be known without knowing how far back you can trace your family tree.

    In my case, my family can trace the family tree to Central Asia (after many, many years of research). So we are very certain who we were, and where we came to India from. There are however still some geneological questions in my mind. White skin, green eyes run in parts of the family since about 1820 ish. Other than recent (1900ish) German influence nobody knows where that came from. (Greeks ?)

    Didz, thanks for the heads up on the show. I think the History channel is different on the Isles than on the mainland. It was'nt on here at that time I even went to bug my neighbour's to make sure I had the right channel. Maybe I got the time wromg. Anyway your writeup gives an excellent picture.
    Last edited by Shahed; 05-15-2007 at 13:05.
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    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    unfortunatley keeping family records doent seem to be something my fammily seem to be interested in. although my dad did try to build one. i should give him a call, however i doubt he managed to go back far enough to be able to determine the externeal influence in our blood :)
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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    A lot of the Indian Ocean influence comes from Muslim Arab traders.

    The Central Asian influence comes from the Mongols, the Timurids and their successors. Which is the case for many families in Pakistan, Afghanistan and North India.

    However the genetics are hard to trace because we have more in common genetically to the Western Europeans than the East Asians.
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    Didz, thanks for the heads up on the show. I think the History channel is different on the Isles than on the mainland. It was'nt on here at that time I even went to bug my neighbour's to make sure I had the right channel. Maybe I got the time wromg. Anyway your writeup gives an excellent picture.
    Your welcome. The summary I've given is really only a fraction of the information covered by the programme so its worth keeping an eye open for it on your TV.

    The architecture itself was stunning, particularly the Christian Churches built with Muslim arches, decorations and quoatations from the quoran. I suspect most tourist just assume that they are looking at a Muslim building, or one which has been converted from a Mosk into a church. And some were, but apparently not all, some were purpose built by the Christian Kings after the reconquista, but before the inquisition.

    I suppose my next logical action is to book a holiday in Spain and go and have a look, but I might do my walking tour of the Peninsula Battlefields first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    However the genetics are hard to trace because we have more in common genetically to the Western Europeans than the East Asians.
    Its always difficuly, I've had trouble tracing my own genetic history and basically had to rely upon the rather sketchy evidence of the origins of my surname. I suppose a gene test might shed more light on it, but even then, if you are interested in your ancestoral background then a gene test is not going to show the timeline as part of the mix so the blood in our viens at the minute might be the result of quite recent intermixing of partners with different ethnic roots rather than an indication of long distant ancestry.

    It also occurs to me that it is perfectly possible that Moors never actually existed.

    By that I mean that the term itself might be nothing more than an arbitary label used by chroniclers and historians to group a whole confederation of quite seperate factions which never considered themselves to be one entity at the time. For example, it does not seem likely that the Andalucian Muslim's considered themselves to be part of the same nation as the Almohad and Almoravid mercenaries they hired to fight for them, and it even seems unlikely that the Berbers considered these tribes to be an intregal part of their nation even though they supposedly were according to the maps on the internet. Likewise, Al Maghreb (Morocco) may not be a country at all but is more likely a description of an area, like we might say North Africa today rather than Libya. Tunisia, Algeria etc. So, the actual people who were approached by the Andalucian's for help were probably not Moroccan but could have been any one of a number of tribes and families who ruled lands along the North African coast. The Muslim accounts actually mention the names of several rulers who attempted to assist. advise and make demands upon the Andalucian's including one guy whose name I haven't got to hand who stated that he would only send warriors to assist if the Andalucian's sorted out their differences and united under a single prince. Evidence, once again that Muslim Spain was fragmented and difficult to negotiate with.
    Last edited by Didz; 05-15-2007 at 13:43.
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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    That's a good idea.

    I have'nt been myself but everyone I know who's been there comes back with a far greater sympathy, understanding and appreciation of Islamic culture.

    Particularly I've heard only great things about Granada, Sevilla and Cordoba.
    Those are supposed to be good places to go with a lady, lots of monuments on the fringes of town, golden sunsets over archers and towers.
    Last edited by Shahed; 05-15-2007 at 13:28.
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    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    Those are supposed to be good places to go with a lady, lots of monuments on the fringes of town, golden sunsets over archers and towers.
    Only if she's hot about military history...

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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    ... or sunsets and ...

    EDIT: Oh I see the typo now dopp LOL ! Damm ! Definetly NOT a phrase to use for seduction.
    Last edited by Shahed; 05-15-2007 at 13:53.
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Seeing the Alhambra was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I've never seen a building as profoundly beautiful and moving anywhere in the world.

    It's a shame to think that the love of beauty and knowledge that led the Moors to create this (among others) was also to cause their destruction at the hands of barbarians (both Christian and Muslim, by the sounds of things - which just goes to show barbarity is no respecter of religion).

    And re Isabella/Ferdinand respecting Muslims when they didn't conflict with politics later - didn't they go back on their promises and persecute/forcibly convert/exile all the moors (muslims) about 10 years later?

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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Since this is mainly focused on Moorish history, I have moved it to the Monastery.


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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by dopp
    Only if she's hot about military history...
    Mine is fascinated with English castles...
    "Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?"

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    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    I'm green with envy (honest)...

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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Honey don't you love the archers over the sunset ?

    /Sinan gets a slap/ ... "go back to your awful, violent video games !!! No sex for you for 1 week !!"

    Thanks dopp I'll definetly remember to choose my words VERY carefully if I ever go there. (LOL) If I said that it would be a D I S A S T E R.
    Last edited by Shahed; 05-15-2007 at 14:22.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Was this the Bettany Hughes-presented programme?

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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    BTW Didz you might find something in here if you do a search for "Moors" or "Moorish Spain". IIRC I posted some in 2004. Also on the Tuareg.
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moah
    And re Isabella/Ferdinand respecting Muslims when they didn't conflict with politics later - didn't they go back on their promises and persecute/forcibly convert/exile all the moors (muslims) about 10 years later?
    Earlier than that I think.

    The Alhambra Decree was signed by Ferdinand in March 1492 just two months or so after the surrender of Grenada. However, I think its wrong to see this decree as 'proof positive' of Ferdinand and Isabella's animosity towards muslims, or indeed their dedication to the Catholic faith.

    The Alhambra Decree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree is essentially concerned with the expulsion and oppression of Jews but was also the beginning of the persecution against those who were still practicing Muslims.

    The Alhambra Decree was more or less forced on Ferdinand and Isabella by a Dominican Friar called Tomás de Torquemada. Isabella was apparently particularly dubious about it primarily because of the concerns she had about the possible economic impact the expulsion of so many merchants and traders would have on her domain and apparently it was Ferdinand who was at first persuaded to accept it (Men - no balls you see).

    Isabella was right to be concerned, the expulsion of the Jewish and Muslim traders turned Spain from the gateway for all trade and learning between East and West into an introverted commercial backwater, which it is still struggling to recover from today, and led directly to the rise of Amsterdam and Venice as the new trading capitals of Europe.

    It was also apparently a very close run thing. There is a Legend that one Spanish Nobleman called Don Isaac Abravanel, a jew also known as Yitzchak ben Yehuda Abravane, who had heavily financed Ferdinand's war against the Muslim Princes approached Ferdinand and offerred him a further 600,000 crown's for his revocation of the edict. Apparently, Ferdinand hestitated which is not surprising as 30,000 crowns had more or less finance an entire campaign so 600,000 was an absolute fortune. He was still dithering when apparently Friar Torquemada dashed in to the Royal presence and thrusting a crucifix aloft, and exclaimed: "Judas Iscariot sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver; Your Highness is about to sell him for 600,000 ducats. Here He is; take Him and sell Him." before strutting from the room, leaving the crucifix behind on the table.

    In the end, Abravanel only managed to get the date for the expulsion extended by two days, after which he left Spain and settled first in Genoa, then Corfu and finally Venice where he helped the Venetian Princes negotiate commercial contracts with Portugal.

    Tomás de Torquemada got what he wanted which was the title of Grand Inquisitor, but had already been helped to that goal by the mysterious murder of his two rivals, Inquisitor Pedro de Arbués in Zaragoza in 1485, and Santo Niño de La Guardia, or the Holy Child of La Guardia, in 1491, both supposedly and conveniently killed by Jews. The damming evidence in the latter case being the existence of a communion wafer in the backpack of the accused. No doubt he used it to bludgeon his victim to death.

    Its interesting to speculate what might have been had Ferdinand had more balls, or been more greedy. The face of the world might have been very different today, not to mention the relationship between Christians, Muslims and Jews.
    Last edited by Didz; 05-15-2007 at 15:56.
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    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    lol Didz i love the way u write and your sense of humor. i nearly spat my mouthfull of chicken pastr on my screen lol

    keep the info coming
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by crpcarrot
    lol Didz i love the way u write and your sense of humor. i nearly spat my mouthfull of chicken pastr on my screen lol

    keep the info coming
    Yes, I like to try and add a bit of 'zest' to story. Some of these historical accounts are so dry and up themselves its hard to imagine that they are talking about real people.

    The idea of some power-mad monk brow-beating the dithering King Ferdinand into ignoring common sense is just so vivid an image it deserves a bit more colour. One can only imagine what words were exchanged between Isabella and Ferdinand behind the closed doors of their bedchamber that night. Thats if he didn't end up sleeping in the corridor.

    As for Tomás de Torquemada he sounds like the Popes answer to Heindrich Himmler, apparently he prossessed himself around Spain with a escort of 250 armed guards and a 50 man mounted escort.

    Even Pope Sixtus IV's was forced to admit that his conduct at the inquisition in Seville,
    without observing juridical prescriptions, have detained many persons in violation of justice, punishing them by severe tortures and imputing to them, without foundation, the crime of heresy, and despoiling of their wealth those sentenced to death, in such form that a great number of them have come to the Apostolic See, fleeing from such excessive rigor and protesting their orthodoxy.
    And hows this for a real twist:

    It appears that our friend Tomás de Torquemada may actually have been of jewish ancestry.

    Apparently the contemporary historian Hernando del Pulgar, writing of Torquemada's uncle Juan de Torquemada, said that his ancestor Alvar Fernández de Torquemada had married a first-generation Jewish converso (convert). It should be noted that del Pulgar was a converso himself.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Was this the Bettany Hughes-presented programme?
    Sorry..Yep! thats the lady. I had to look her up on the internet too as I hadn't paid much attention to her name during the programme.
    http://www.bettanyhughes.co.uk/welcome.htm
    Last edited by Didz; 05-15-2007 at 16:27.
    Didz
    Fortis balore et armis

  26. #26

    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    White skin, green eyes run in parts of the family since about 1820 ish. Other than recent (1900ish) German influence nobody knows where that came from. (Greeks ?)
    from what i've learned, green eyes are more prevalent in areas that are ethnic intersection points on the globe. where peoples of various different ethnic backgrounds have settled over time. places like iberia, asia minor, the caucauses etc.
    indeed

  27. #27
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Isn't that a spelling error?

    M-O-O-P-S
    The correct way to spell it.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    If anybody is interested, the documentary can be found on YouTube under the title, "Islam in Europe: When The Moors Ruled in Europe". There are 11 parts but every one of them is worth watching.

    I'm currently in a Moorish campaign myself and have shared much of Didz's Moorish-related experiences both in-game and out.

  29. #29
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Excellent.

    THANKS for the link.
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  30. #30
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moors: On the history channel tonight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miracle
    If anybody is interested, the documentary can be found on YouTube under the title, "Islam in Europe: When The Moors Ruled in Europe". There are 11 parts but every one of them is worth watching.
    Well done sir, now I can watch it again whenever I need to refer to it.
    Didz
    Fortis balore et armis

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