How does phalanx pikes stop arrows?

[Intranetusa]

How exactly does the pikes of sarrissa phalanxes stop arrows?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Magic.

[Foot]

The tips of the pikes doubled as a small shield generator. The pikes, through their combined energies, were able to deflect incoming missiles up to a certain degree. Or ... we have already had this conversation. I imagine that it has something to do with hardcodes, and something to do with the fact that you are hardly seeing the full number of pikes that would have been fielded in a normal sized phalanx battalion.

Foot

[Southern Hunter]

The last answer I got to this question from an EB member was (paraphrasing) - 'They don't, we never said they did'.

Then to explain the high shield value of Phalangites, was added:

'Phalanx have high shield values to reflect that they are stronger from the front, and as shield values dont count from the rear (and right), phalanxes will be appropriately weaker in these situations.

Personally, as this has the effect of making them much better at stopping arrows than they should be, I think it should be looked at, with shield values representing shield size and strength only.

Cheers,

Hunter

[Intranetusa]

Actually, phalanxes still get huge bonuses from the sides. I can fire at a single phalanx with 5 archer units and maybe kill less than 30 of them from the sides, and less than 20 from the front.


In RTW Vanilla, phalanxes were still extremely powerful from the front, but they didn't have these huge anti-missile bonuses...
They could kill anything headon, but suffered a good amount of casualties from archers/slingers. Is there any way to recreate this?

[Ferromancer]

Yes, the phalanx formation did provide some extra protection against arrows: Sarissa

[LordCurlyton]

I believe the best explanation I saw in this ever-recurring topic was this (posted by I don't remember who): Try taking a small stick and throwing it thru a thick set of branches and see just how many times it gets thru with any appreciable energy.
IE, the pikes acted as shock absorbers and deflectors. Most arrows will either have the path deflected enough to not matter or will have their energy reduced to the point where the helmet/shield/linothorax will cause it to bounce off. Its not 100% effective but its a damn site better than nothing.
Also, remember that missile weapons were fired in a volley at spots of ground, not at individual people. Those pikes are a pretty good deterrent to an arcing arrow swarm. If you happen to get a bunch of Legolas quality archers that can run around direct firing on the phalanx they are just going to get slaughtered anyways.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

If you saw a full-sized phalanx battalion with its men in order and ready, you would see how it would stop arrows. 16-rank deep blocks of men, squished together with most of them holding their pikes in the air, it makes a forest. The vast majority of arrows just would not have gotten any meat.

[JeffBag]

Also, all the pikes would be vertically upwards during the skirmish phase, when they would be under fire from arrows that are arching downwards. Arrows, when volley fired, and after long distances in an arching trajectory, do not necessary move directly forwards anyway; they tend to curve side to side due to crosswinds. Therefore, to an arrow, its not really a 3 ft gap between each row of pikes, since it would most likely to be travelling at an angle upon reaching the forest of pikes.

[LorDBulA]

This is more real picture of what arrow has to pass to get to the guys.
Now imagine that every of this pikes is waving about half meter in every direction (a the end point).
It just hard for arrow to pass without bouncing few times, changing direction and loosing energy.

[blank]

ok

How about sling stones? Do those also fly at an angle?

[Southern Hunter]

Let's just say that I would love to either a. get in my time machine and see it work in history or b. See it tested in the field by re-enactors or similar. It is a fascinating question.

I'm sure I would prefer a big shield like an Imperial legionary....but that is worse according to the EB figures we fight with.

[bovi]

Sling stones fly at not much of an angle at all. Which I think makes them even less effective, as the shield covers pretty much the whole body.

Edit: When crouching, I mean. Also the feet are likely vulnerable, but a hit to the feet wouldn't kill. Might incapacitate the victim though.

[abou]

It would bloody-f-ing hurt, that is what it would do.

[JeffBag]

As long as the guy is no longer capable of fighting, its good enough.

[Watchman]

Most phalangites had greaves though, didn't they ? I've read they were pretty much standard issue just to keep the pikes' sauroters from mauling the troopers' legs too much.

Anyway, slingstones fly in an arc like everything else. A shallower arc than arrows usually use maybe but still an arc. And the apex tends to be pretty high up when tossing at something far away, right ?

I'm sure I would prefer a big shield like an Imperial legionary....but that is worse according to the EB figures we fight with.

Let's see you use a pike with one, wiseguy.

Anyway, phalangites seem to signally have failed to get decimated in a part of the world pretty much rotten with slings, javelins and composite bows. Whatever their anti-missile countermeasures now exactly were they presumably worked well enough.

[Intranetusa]

I believe the best explanation I saw in this ever-recurring topic was this (posted by I don't remember who): Try taking a small stick and throwing it thru a thick set of branches and see just how many times it gets thru with any appreciable energy.
IE, the pikes acted as shock absorbers and deflectors. Most arrows will either have the path deflected enough to not matter or will have their energy reduced to the point where the helmet/shield/linothorax will cause it to bounce off. Its not 100% effective but its a damn site better than nothing.
Also, remember that missile weapons were fired in a volley at spots of ground, not at individual people. Those pikes are a pretty good deterrent to an arcing arrow swarm. If you happen to get a bunch of Legolas quality archers that can run around direct firing on the phalanx they are just going to get slaughtered anyways.

Did you look at my picture? This is no "thick set of branches"...it's more like 10thin branches arranged in a row 3 feet from each other.


"Yes, the phalanx formation did provide some extra protection against arrows"
Your link does not mention stopping arrows.


"This is more real picture of what arrow has to pass to get to the guys."
They are not in the phalanx mode - they actually suffer more casualities if you take them out of phalanx mode.

[LorDBulA]

Sorry Intranetusa but are we talking game or real life?
I thought You asked how it worked in real life ( and thus my picture to visualize).
If You asked how it works in game then no game doesnt calculate exact path of arrow and then checks if arrow path was deflected by pike using physics.
There is just some kind modyfiers for standart RTW arrow casiulties system.
Exactly how it works? Only CA knows.

[The_Mark]

They are not in the phalanx mode - they actually suffer more casualities if you take them out of phalanx mode.

The pikes are there whether or not they are tilted forwards. Though, RTW might have some differing opinions on RL stuff, admittedly.

[abou]

If you want to experiment, try this. Get about ~100 (256 if you're feeling daring as that was the tactical division known as the speirai or syntagma) dowel rods and stick them in the ground in a fashion similar to the way they would be held in a phalanx (straight up or angled, it honestly doesn't matter that much). Now, how you place them is dependent on how much room you have. If you have thicker rods you could do a full 3ft breadth and 6ft depth. If not, you'll have to scaled it - maybe 1.5x3ft. You will also need to angle them.

Now, stand back some feet back and try throwing darts at it or other dowel rods. Hell, get some friends to join you. Anywhere there is a rod bent or broken that is where a sarissa would have absorbed the energy from an incoming missle, making it useless. It is much harder than you think to aim from several dozens, if not hundreds, of feet away and actually hit someone. And then you have to hope you hit his neck because practically everything else is protected except the right leg.

[Foot]

Did you look at my picture? This is no "thick set of branches"...it's more like 10thin branches arranged in a row 3 feet from each other.

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot

[hellenes]

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot

Cant you make the spacing between the soldiers thicker?

[Sultan Borat]

Greeks thought archery was dishonorable , Allot of the Greek Hellenic infantry was designed to fight other Hellenic armies so archers peppering them with arrows waisnt originally considered when Phalanx first came out. It waisnt until the Persians arrived that the Greeks needed to devise a counter to archery, That being larger shields and group formations similar to testudo. But simply the Persians of the arcmenid era used hit and run harrasement since their infantry couldn't stand up to the Greeks.

Years of war amongst the Hellenic states made the Greeks progress a great deal militarily. Where as Persia was dominant and unchallenged for centuries and far to use to amassing large armies and intimidating enemies into capitulating then actually fighting.

But what got the Persians to strike at the Greeks was the fact that many Greek states pirated trade caravans and shipping lanes , The Shahanshah Xerxes responded with a massive invasion with the intent of conquering all the Greeks.

Nations that weren't guilty of piracy were furious that the entire pot of city states got equal punishment for crimes of a few. So the Deal ion league was formed and of course you know the rest.

Sassinids on the other hand had superior cavalry to the Romans, They imported tough ass sogdian warriors to combat roman legionaries.

[Intranetusa]

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot

Actually I believe historically, a phalanx unit was comprised of around 240 phalangites each. So A unit on HUGE settings would accurately portray the troop numbers.


I'm just saying, these phalangites have a higher chance of surviving arrow fire than heavy infantry with HUGE shields.

Is this "phalanx pikes stopping arrows" in RTW:EB only or did it actually happen in real life? Sources/sites please...


Afterall, in Rome Total War Vanilla, phalanxes were weak against missile weapons and many phalanx units in RTW die under archery fire.

[abou]

[Watchman]

I feel your pain, brother.

[Sarcasm]

...it's like...eating too much ice-cream in one bite...

[Grey_Fox]

A person once made an apt post on another forum:

"In order to frame an adequate response I am going to ask a question that, while it may seem insulting, is not actually intended to be and should not be treated as such.

Are you stupid?"

[Conqueror]

Greeks thought archery was dishonorable , Allot of the Greek Hellenic infantry was designed to fight other Hellenic armies so archers peppering them with arrows waisnt originally considered when Phalanx first came out. It waisnt until the Persians arrived that the Greeks needed to devise a counter to archery, That being larger shields and group formations similar to testudo.

I thought it was the other way around: that archery fell out of favor amongst the greeks because hoplites in heavy armor and formed in "phalanx" (shieldwall) started appearing in battles, reducing the usefulness of missile weapons. Perhaps someone with actual expertice in the matter could clarify this? Altough it is a bit off topic here, since this thread really is about the Makedonian sarissa-phalanx.

[Watchman]

The Greeks fought as close-order heavy infantrymen because they were by and large part-time farmer-soldiers, who had little time to spare for the kind of specialized training for example archery requires (in the case you don't learn it in your everyday life; the EB description of the Toxotai mentions they're mainly reqruited from poor hunters of the highlands for example). Also, the terrain and nature of communal conflict in Greece favoured short but furious decisive close-combat encounters.

Conversely out East there was generally rather more elbow room to play around in and a lot of the kind of geography that produces good bowmen, and archery had played a very central part in most military traditions since Bronze Age at least. There were also rather a lot more professional soldiers around from quite early on, and battlefields tended to be more fluid and varied. Plus mobile archers had been around already since the heydays of the war chariot, and the horse-archers of Assyrian and Scythian inspiration were no less dangerous and both rather more agile and numerous; massed infantry archery was one of the better counters for such pesky foes who could run rings around heavy infantry.

By far more sophisticated (and common) siege warfare may also have been a factor.

It's not like the East lacked solid heavy infantry; it just wasn't the decisive arm, but more a shield for the missile troops and an anchor for the cavalry to operate around - one component in a combined-arms approach needed to deal with very diverse military challenges. The Greeks were conversely specialists in heavy shock infantry action (and little else) - and while their way of doing things did well enough on their home ground against the "Eastern" approach, one does get the impression it started falling short rather fast east of the Aegean (and, for that matter, north of Makedonia - the Thracian tribal light infantry initially ate hoplites for breakfast).