MP Wishlist @ .COM

[TosaInu]

Tell me about it. My new 8800GTS wont run VI lol.

A pity.

How did you solve? Run VI on another PC or add a 2nd gfx in the same box?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Different pc.

[guyfawkes5]

Quoted for the .org's benefit:

Hi guys

Thanks for all the feedback. Keep it up, but keep it constructive. If you can, describe clearly what the issue is and why.
As others on this thread have so clearly and concisely said, the more specific, coherent and defined the feedback is, the more likely we can evaluate it properly.

We are aware there are technical issues with MP that need addressing and although I can't answer for CA-OZ (I'm sure the OZ guys are doing work for Kingdoms), we here at CA-UK are most definitely looking at trying to resolve as many issues as we can, as a matter of course, for the next big TW title. We are actually at this time working on the next, full, TW title and we're rebuilding the MP section from the foundations up. There were a number of unfortunate limitations that the Rome and Med2 engines placed on us that should, fingers crossed, be less of an issue this time around. How well much we manage to fit in is still subject to the slings and arrows of outrageous games development, but we really are going for it.

As I mentioned to Toxic elsewhere, we have a very, very big list of new features, bug fixes and game improvements. Anyway to quote myself and save my fingers for work:

"Unfortunately, despite us having an amazing bunch of people working long and hard on producing a world class game, there just aren't enough hours in the day or the infinite amount of time we would like to do all the work we would like. This has meant that inevitably some game features have, in the past, had to take a back seat to others. This isn't what we want or ever have ever intended, but game software development has a terrible capacity to throw curveballs out of left field. Often, they hit you on the back of the head when you're looking the other way. "

So guys please dont dispare but be aware that rebuilding code isnt a "quick fix". It takes time. But we hope you will think its worth it. "Total War: Fast As A Shark 2 - Yeah Baby!" will blow your minds.

[Puzz3D]

So they are going to put more effort into MP for the title after Kingdoms, and that's where the suggestions in the wishlist might be implimented. I'm glad I didn't purchase M2TW.

[Lusted]

I thought it sounded like they were getting feedback so they can work on mp for the next game, probably not enough time left until Kingdoms is released to really improve M2 mp.

[Noir]

Just scrolling through the forums lately, i ran into an interesting post by Elmarkofear (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...2#post1438282). Part of it reads:

Originally posted by Elmarkofear
Being positive has never had any effect on encouraging CA to help the MP community, or even give us a small amount of consideration. As stated above, many of us were very positive, and supportive of CA and loved the MP community and gameplay. However, we soon found, and it was also stated several times by CA, that MP is not as important as the SP campaign and that MP was just an afterthought and not the main concern of the developers. Knowing this, how could anyone remain positive and think it would have any effect on CA's decision to ignore the MP community?

Many Thanks

Noir

[TosaInu]

Bits of data are not included. It's unfair to blame it on CA alone.

[Puzz3D]

The design of the battle engine has been acknowledged by CA to be placing a limitation on network performance. This is why they are going to start from scratch designing the multiplayer component for the next game after the Kingdoms add-on which will be using a 3rd generation battle engine. Due to the way CA is divided into divisions which work independently on Total War titles, the battle engine doesn't go through a process of continual refinement from one generation to the next which is why we saw problems that had been solved in the 1st generation engine reappear in the 2nd generation engine.

[pike master]

1st and 2nd generation?

1st warhammer shadow of the horned rat
2nd warhammer dark omen
3rd shogun
4th mtw/vi
5th rome total war
6th medieval 2

anyone with any knowledge of morale based game history knows its family tree.

[Puzz3D]

There have only been 2 generations of the Total War battle engine. The 1st was STW/MTW, and the 2nd was RTW/M2TW. Within each generation there was improvement, but not across the two generations. The 2nd generation engine is inferior to the 1st generation engine, and this has been demonstrated through objective testing by myself and others.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Was War hammer on the PS by the same people. I liked that game but the units were so hard to control.

[TosaInu]

Did CA make Warhammer?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It says NAMCO here

Warhammer for the PS2 was developed by Kuju Entertainment Ltd.,

LINK

[pike master]

total war is the bastard son of the warhammer games.

a generation is a continuance of a line. therefore each game that continues the line and adds to the original idea is a generation.

you cant argue with a hillbilly redneck.

[TosaInu]

It's all binary to me.

[ElmarkOFear]

Sid Meier's Gettysburg! game was the first RTS game I ran across that used Morale as one of the major determinants of success. I think it is probably the original, or close to it.

Gotta love ole Sid.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I loved Pirates. IN fact I still play the latest edition. The land battles are far better now,

ElmOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo

[ElmarkOFear]

Howdy Gawain of Orkeny :) Long time no see.

BTW: It's properly done like this:

ElmOoOooOoOoOooOoooOOo! hehe Think of it as a combination of Elm and MoOoOoOOo! the cry of the madcow.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Have you tried MTW2 since the patch. We miss you there. Goat is always asking for you. Stop in and say hello sometime.

[Orda Khan]

we're rebuilding the MP section from the foundations up.

Oh cool, that means MP will be great

probably not enough time left until Kingdoms is released to really improve M2 mp.

How much time is needed? I thought with any product series the idea would be continual improvement. So far that's seven years

.........Orda

[Puzz3D]

How much time is needed? I thought with any product series the idea would be continual improvement. So far that's seven years.

Seven years and the result is a worse battle engine and worse network performance. It works worse over broadband than the older game worked over dial-up with the same number of men on the battlefield.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It works worse over broadband than the older game worked over dial-up with the same number of men on the battlefield.

Wrong we have to use small units In NTW we could use 200 man units.

I have to say though that a few times Ive gotten in 3 on 3s with all good PCs and connections and the game flies. In fact its too fast.

[ElmarkOFear]

Gawain: I was on the night before last for the first time since the patch release. It took me awhile to finally get the patch to allow me to play online. :) Typical CA patch code.

The patch was a big improvement to gameplay and a lot of those infantry units now have a major role in deciding the outcome of the battles. All-in-all, it was a fun experience and I will enjoy testing all the unit vs. unit and formation stuff.

Ole Goat and myself, played two 2v2 games and lost both, so we still "have it". Our routing skillz are 2 L33T!

PS: I'm surprised you still hang around here amongst all these non-M2 veteran curmudgeons who have made it their mission to see to it the .org continues in its decline as a place to enjoy discussing the latest TW MP game.

I stop by every once in awhile, but it's beginning to smell like a retirement home around here and I hear it's not healthy to stick around in such depressing environments for any length of time.

Those who are amongst this grumpy group, might consider registering with the International Antiquities Preservation Society or join the National .Org Federation of Ubiquitous Nonproliferation-ists ("NO-FUN" for short) . . . . or possibly an animal rights activist group and petition to be placed on the endangered species list.

[Puzz3D]

Some players will accept inferior gameplay and poorer performance and claim that it isn't worse it's just different. M2TW is worse than the 1st generation battle engine in both tactical depth and performance. It's obvious by reading the posts of players that have the game. Even Creative Assembly has said that the network performance of M2TW is compromised by the design.

[ElmarkOFear]

Hey Gawain! I think I just spotted another member of the endangered species I was speaking of earlier . . .

I will be online tonight around 9 pm eastern to play, so if you have some time, feel free to join one of my games.

[Whacker]

It's important to have all aspects of the game available for tweak and mod. And not have some hardcoded modifier that cripples gameplay (if the flankbonus was just 1 point more, then it would rock).

Creative Assembly rejected this idea with the reasoning that it would make the game too confusing for new players.

Just a small point/clarification. CA 'seems' to have rejected this based on 1. they view it as 'giving away the keys to their kingdom' to quote a dear nemesis of mine, and 2. statements made about how 'big their code base is'. I say seems because of the clear direction they are taking with the franchises and multiple statements made by devs in the past.

The day the TW games are as moddable as id Software engines and Valve's source engine, I'll cease and desist all of my harsh criticisms, and I imagine most of the rest of us will to, because we'll be literally able to fix anything short of rendering, audo, and low level netcode ourselves.

[Puzz3D]

Just a small point/clarification. CA 'seems' to have rejected this based on 1. they view it as 'giving away the keys to their kingdom' to quote a dear nemesis of mine, and 2. statements made about how 'big their code base is'. I say seems because of the clear direction they are taking with the franchises and multiple statements made by devs in the past.

It was clearly stated by LongJohn shortly after MTW was released that morale, fatigue and ammo would not have more than the on/off settings because it would be confusing to new players. I think he was in favor of providing multiple settings for those parameters because he even told us that fatigue rate had not been optimized for the larger maps in MTW and he agreed that the optimal morale level in a team game was not the same as in a 1v1 and he agreed that the effectiveness of archers was incorrect. However, when he asked CA about implimenting the change they said no. In fact, with RTW what had previously been independent on/off adjustments of each of those three parameters was condensed into a single on/off switch for all three. So, you can see a design philosophy of making the game easier for new players starting to take effect. You could already see it in MTW with the randomized weather, and lack of optimization of morale, fatigue and ranged unit effectiveness.

With RTW, a curtain of secrecy came down over the battle engine supposedly to protect CA's commercial interests, but months later after players ran tests it became apparent that the battle engine had been simplified in tactical depth, and this simplification process has continuted into M2TW. The network performance has also deteriorated. At least in RTW v1.2, the network problems were mostly solved, but after a massive 5 month patch effort in M2TW v1.2, there has been no improvement in network performance. So, I would conclude that the code base is indeed too big for them to handle now, and it's apparently getting bigger.

[Whacker]

It was clearly stated by LongJohn shortly after MTW was released that morale, fatigue and ammo would not have more than the on/off settings because it would be confusing to new players. I think he was in favor of providing multiple settings for those parameters because he even told us that fatigue rate had not been optimized for the larger maps in MTW and he agreed that the optimal morale level in a team game was not the same as in a 1v1 and he agreed that the effectiveness of archers was incorrect. However, when he asked CA about implimenting the change they said no. In fact, with RTW what had previously been independent on/off adjustments of each of those three parameters was condensed into a single on/off switch for all three. So, you can see a design philosophy of making the game easier for new players starting to take effect. You could already see it in MTW with the randomized weather, and lack of optimization of morale, fatigue and ranged unit effectiveness.

With RTW, a curtain of secrecy came down over the battle engine supposedly to protect CA's commercial interests, but months later after players ran tests it became apparent that the battle engine had been simplified in tactical depth, and this simplification process has continuted into M2TW. The network performance has also deteriorated. At least in RTW v1.2, the network problems were mostly solved, but after a massive 5 month patch effort in M2TW v1.2, there has been no improvement in network performance. So, I would conclude that the code base is indeed too big for them to handle now, and it's apparently getting bigger.

I wasn't aware that it was firmly stated, but I believe you. I fully agree with your assessment, and it's sad in a number of ways. I just can't help but constantly every time the modding argument comes up and someone will always invariably A> state that the game is indeed 'supremely moddable and I just don't know what I'm talking about' or B> try and make excuses for why it really isn't, yet that's one of the major selling points. This is also further indicative of the validity of the 'dumbing down' argument that's pervading the game industry right now. Given the backlash that I'm seeing universally, I firmly believe that regular gamers want choices and streamlining, not simplification. Was thinking last night about how nice it would be if we had much more control over the situation in custom and multiplayer battles. Being able to deplete units to represent a settlement that's been besieged for awhile. Pre-damaging walls and towers. Simulating a successful spy infiltration. Etc etc etc. A shame really. Sincerely hope CA is listening and makes some good choices down the road, I've been with them since the beginning but am ready to leave next round if they don't get back to their roots. I know there are quite a few other 'old timers' that have already 'left', I guess this is just nearing my personal breaking point.

/shrug

Have a good afternoon folks

[YellowMelon]

I'm a little confused as to why people who don't even have the game are commenting on a thread designed to enhance the game. Furthermore, they are not even being constructive to the thread and to the prospect of enhancing the game. Im sorry the game doesn't meet your standards, but why are you pursuing threads in a gaming forum where you not only don't have the game, but have no intention of purchasing it? Aren't forums supposed to enhance the community not isolate it?

[guyfawkes5]

Oh now Melon, you know we're allowed say that...