MP Wishlist @ .COM

[YellowMelon]

Chivalry was quite fun, I tried to get it into the MPers heads when I ran CWB, but nobody was paying it any notice :(

[Puzz3D]

It's important to have all aspects of the game available for tweak and mod.

Creative Assembly rejected this idea with the reasoning that it would make the game too confusing for new players.

[TosaInu]

Hello Puzz3D,

Default configuration. Edit it via advanced or load a pre-made profile.

[Mars]

Agreed. Future is on MP not on SP. It is up to them if they want this to realize or not. I will purchase expansion when released in December. If there would be no improvements for MP I will understand this as ignorance and only memories on Total War series will remain.

No, no and no.

TW Kind of games has no MP future! The battles itself cant provide enought entertainment! Back in 2000 the battles was something new, but times changed and if u consider that the mecanics got dumped down a lot, the whole game changed more to a funny setup-pic-click-some game.


If u take the current game i miss a lot deep gameplay....im not goin deeper in this...


So right now people who wanna have battles online vs other player suely go and play the new starcraft II or many play Wc3....
The online market for TW is small and will never ever change, unless they change the gamestyle completly and than it wouldnt be TW anymore.


I know that CA and back in the days EA made market researches about the MP market with their game and the result was glassclear!
There wont be any focus on MP.



The phrase, that the future of of gaming lay in the onlinemarket is an old shoo... Its tiresome. While its true for certain game types, for TW kind of games it isnt!


Mars

[Stuperman]

Ah but you cant taunt computers or rub it in. Nor brag to them of beating them . Much more satisfaction in beating a fellow human being. Or is that just me?

True, but MP is limited in it's own way, you can't develop your generals or armies, there is no lead up to or aftermath of, your battles.

The emphasis is more on tactics (where to position/when to move individual regiments, flanking, trying to get archers to the left and back of your enemy) than strategy (where to move whole armies, risking leaving a Front open while you attack).

I personally get more enjoyment out of successfully managing a blossoming empire than winning individual battles.

I don't play MP at all really, but I imagine that bridge battles are much less frequent in MP than in SP.

What I want is some type of officially supported hotseat mod, I think a mp campaign would add a really cool dimention to the game, especially if more than 2 players could join (Byzantium, Danes, and Spain fighting for control of northen Italy, how could that not be fun). The best way to do it IMO would be to have all non-AI players to have thier turns one after the other. At the end of a turn you'd be prompted to input an e-mail addy that the CPU would use to send the game file to the next player. PvP battle could be Auto-calced or fought through the std MP mode, it's takle some commitment on the part of players, but if people can play WOW for hours at a time I wouldn't think it'd be a huge problem.

p.s. sorry for thread jacking

[Mars]

Online campaigns are tiresome and completly useless.

People here want the battles first, they dont want the strategical part.


So if u speak about MP campaigns, the problem comes with the point where 1 of the player involved think he lost...

What now? U need a backupsystem for the player who dont want to continue playing a game where he just play more battles and know that he lost.

In chess u draw u king and say gg.... game over.


What u do in TW, u would need an AI to take over player who leave the campagin. Not to mention the crazy amount of time such a campaing will take.

How long u play a SP campaign? 40 hours? 60? more?
Now add 3-5 more people and imagin the crazy time u need.... nah.


Online games are devided in:

1. short time games, like egoshooter or arcade/action games, what u always can notice is the production overload (point u reached the 100%) its also determind by the resourcces which ends at some point (games like WC3 or SC)

Ego shooter is based on the area and or to rach a certain goal, but for sure, each time the gametime is clearly limited to something below 30 min for a single game.

Note: Average gametime on WC is below 12 mins.

2. Longterm games, in most cases some MMOGs, where u build up a character

3. let me mention browser games, some are pretty longterm based as well, but still the mainidea is to have limited time where u visit these kind of games...



I remember some campagins we organised back in STW/MI times, with lots of work and many clans involved, the ammount of time u did need was just too much. The main ideas was great but with time u could see the problems ;)


Anyway, Campaing online will find a handfull player, but u wont see a huge community.

the real battles are too simple, it is too limited for a big market. And even its dumped like hell, the system is still too complex....
Look at normal arcade games, there are units with stats, some special abbis and than some can shoot, other melee and in the end u also have some AOE....still, 90% of the units target 1 single other unit and u "mass" up many times and try to outplay synergies....


TW like it is now, is still complex, but the battle itself has nothing to provide apart units who fight each other and at some point, u won or lost....


I could imagin stuff like, Fog of war, this would kinda introduce units who has to scout. There should me much more room for fatique differences...

I imagin a very big map with many areas, and u just introduce battlegrps where the goal is to reach a certain country on that map an u won one "war".

To not let newbs lose the front maps, u could introduce ranks for player and u need a certain rank to be allowed to attack on a front map....



Well, there has to be more stuff introduced to the current battle system to make it interesting for more player.

koc

[Gawain of Orkeny]

True, but MP is limited in it's own way, you can't develop your generals or armies, there is no lead up to or aftermath of, your battles.
The emphasis is more on tactics (where to position/when to move individual regiments, flanking, trying to get archers to the left and back of your enemy) than strategy (where to move whole armies, risking leaving a Front open while you attack).

Exactly it gets right to the action

I personally get more enjoyment out of successfully managing a blossoming empire than winning individual battles.

Thats why we have two communities. I always loved games like Civilization. I loved MTW sp. I beat it three times and then went online. Ive never played an sp TW game since that day. I get far more satisfaction being part of a clan and fighting for the championship of the world against real people than some AI on a computer for control of my own computerland.

PS we have tried online camps many times and as Mars says when peeps start to loose they drop out AND ITS GAME OVER.

additional PS :)

[QUOTE]Ah but you cant taunt computers or rub it in. Nor brag to them of beating them . Much more satisfaction in beating a fellow human being. Or is that just me?[QUOTE]

This was a joke. I dont taunt players in mp. I dont brag either.

[Puzz3D]

True, but MP is limited in it's own way, you can't develop your generals or armies, there is no lead up to or aftermath of, your battles.

You are the general and you develop your skills to a higher and higher level. The game needs tactical depth to allow that continual improving of your game. The game needs balance so that a wide variety of armies are used rather than one best army type dominating the gameplay. There is lead up and aftermath because you are in a social setting. The lead up is arranging matches, making alliances with other clans, recruiting clan members, training and talking to people. The aftermath is analyzing the battle, offering a rematch and gaining the respect of other players.

The emphasis is more on tactics (where to position/when to move individual regiments, flanking, trying to get archers to the left and back of your enemy) than strategy (where to move whole armies, risking leaving a Front open while you attack).

The emphasis is on tactics, and that's why there is so much disappointment when the tactics are dumbed down just because tactics aren't as important to the SP player. The SP game certainly isn't hurt by good tactical depth in the battles. Also, better graphics hurts MP when it causes lag, and zooming in to watch the men fight is a luxury MP players can't afford. Finishing moves add no value to MP.

There is strategy in the battles, just as there is in chess, in the making of a battle plan. You must have that strategic planning to create the tactical opportunities. In team games, the strategic element is even more important. You can also have different game styles such as capture the flag which involves both offensive and defensive strategy.

I personally get more enjoyment out of successfully managing a blossoming empire than winning individual battles.

I like tactical games, and at one time Total War was the best real time tactical game available. Total War MP used to be on the level of chess as a game (It even had a chess style ranking system), but that's not the case anymore.

I don't play MP at all really, but I imagine that bridge battles are much less frequent in MP than in SP.

Bridge battles are a waste of time in MP because they are one sided and offer almost no maneuvering. No one has ever figured out how much to handicap the defender in a bridge battle, and you would certainly have to do that to even the odds of winning.

What I want is some type of officially supported hotseat mod, I think a mp campaign would add a really cool dimention to the game, especially if more than 2 players could join (Byzantium, Danes, and Spain fighting for control of northen Italy, how could that not be fun). The best way to do it IMO would be to have all non-AI players to have thier turns one after the other. At the end of a turn you'd be prompted to input an e-mail addy that the CPU would use to send the game file to the next player. PvP battle could be Auto-calced or fought through the std MP mode, it's takle some commitment on the part of players, but if people can play WOW for hours at a time I wouldn't think it'd be a huge problem.

I don't want to commit to something like a campaign that's going to take a long time to play. At the same time, I remember playing a 13 hour session of one battle after another in STW. STW had very well paced battles that lasted about 20 minutes. MTW had those slow firing xbows that extended the average battle to 40 minutes. That would be ok if somthing was happening most of the time, but it wasn't. Rather than achieving the sustained excitement that consecutive 20 minute battles offered in STW, you had periods of bordom introduced to the MP experience in MTW. Even with that problem, I played over 5000 MP battles in MTW. Magyar Khan had well over 10,000 MP battles played in STW, and I don't know how many in MTW.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Magyar Khan had well over 10,000 MP battles played in STW, and I don't know how many in MTW.

Wow too bad i missed STW. I think Im around 25000 to 30000 mp games in MTW/VI Of course Im including a few hundred MTW2 games.

[Puzz3D]

I think Im around 25000 to 30000 mp games in MTW/VI

And you don't notice the imbalance?

[Ser Clegane]

Wow too bad i missed STW. I think Im around 25000 to 30000 mp games in MTW/VI Of course Im including a few hundred MTW2 games.

Sorry to drop in (as a non-MP-player), but even if a game takes only 30min - instead of the 40min that Puzz3D mentioned - that would translate into playing 4-5 years of playing 8 hours each and every day


You certainly got your money's worth out of MTW/VI, Gawain

[Hosakawa Tito]

Now, if you could only figure out how to get paid for doing it...that'd be da bomb! how to make TW work for me...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And you don't notice the imbalance?

Of course I do. Ive complained that spears are almost useless since Ive started playing. Ive learned to live with it

Sorry to drop in (as a non-MP-player), but even if a game takes only 30min - instead of the 40min that Puzz3D mentioned - that would translate into playing 4-5 years of playing 8 hours each and every day

That it does. Hows this, I once went 19 months without missing a single day of playing. I would average 8 to 10 hours a day. Many a time playing 16 or 17 hours a day on weekends . Once I was hiy by a car and taken to the hospital during that period. I was pretty badly hurt and spent about 12 hours there. They medicated me up and sent me home. As soon as i got there I went online I didnt do so good in the condition I was in.

Until MTW2 came out MTW/VI was the only game I ever played for over 4 years.

Yes Ive certainly gotten my monies worth from it and am continuing to do so.

[Puzz3D]

Of course I do. Ive complained that spears are almost useless since Ive started playing. Ive learned to live with it

That's what I thought, and I don't see anything funny about it. I'm not going to compromise my standards to suit the lowered standard that Creative Assembly has adopted since their first game. I wasted my time trying to help Creative Assembly improve their game except that the old engine was developed to the point where you can make good mods using that engine. I spent about nine months of my time on their beta teams putting in about 40 hours a week, and that was on top of working a full time job.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That's what I thought, and I don't see anything funny about it

Well it was still the best game I ever played. In fact to me it still is not counting NTW and the STW and recon mods. If I didnt keep my sense of humor I like you would be disgusted. Then again I never put in the time and effort you did trying to fix these things. You know I repect You the Mizu clan for all the great things youve done for this community and MTW/VI in particular. I still dont know why no one can fix spears. How hard can it be? Its seems to me that they work better now in MTW2 than in VI.

As always my Hats off to you

[TosaInu]

Hello Gawain of Orkeny,

That's quite something.

Spears were quite powerful in the original MTW 1.0. To the point that both SP and MP players were not happy with it.
MTW 1.0 was a spearsgame.

Of course many tweaks were proposed in the forums (ranging from cost to attack). In the patch, too many tweaks were suddenly implemented and the balance shifted from over- to underpowered. Weak spears -> cavalry and swords game.

Bulletproof balancing of TW games is a huge effort. And realisticaly, it takes months to really balance a stat for good online play, I doubt that any software developer can pull that off.

What I noticed from being involved with stats/mods, is that you sometimes know what to do, but fail to get that to work because of limitations in the engine (or worse: having to make consessions because of SP). That makes it an even longer project.

What the developers can do, and we can not, is provide a solid MP frame. Indirect rather than direct support. Seperating MP from SP (same product though like Soldier of Fortune) is a good start.

[pike master]

the error in peoples thinking on the updated spear performance is too assume that the schiltrom is the toughest anti-cav formation when in fact a thin line only two deep with guard mode on using armored seargeants will defeat most heavy cavalry. in other words assuming a formation close to what most are doing with pike units.

once the charge and are stopped by the line of spears switch to attack and wreak havoc with the horses. when they pull back reform which can be done quicker than any spearwall or schiltrom and reface the cav.

you can usually defeat cav despite repeated charges with this technique.

[TosaInu]

the error in peoples thinking on the updated spear performance is too assume that the schiltrom is the toughest anti-cav formation when in fact a thin line only two deep with guard mode on using armored seargeants will defeat most heavy cavalry. in other words assuming a formation close to what most are doing with pike units.

Isn't it authentically so that dense squares are the way to stop cavalry?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Spears were quite powerful in the original MTW 1.0. To the point that both SP and MP players were not happy with it.
MTW 1.0 was a spearsgame.

Yes before the patch. I remember i loved taking Chiv Sarges back when faction almost had alans. How is it they went to far and could never go back? That was long ago.

when in fact a thin line only two deep with guard mode on using armored seargeants will defeat most heavy cavalry. in other words assuming a formation close to what most are doing with pike units.

Only two deep? I guess there are no rank bonuses like in VI? Does this work vs swords? How deep vs swords? You could make an awfully long spear wall with 4-6 spear units like that.

[TosaInu]

Hello Gawain of Orkeny,

There was only one patch for MTW.

LongJohn asked for VI MP tweaks and something was done for spears. I think it was the general +2 morale that was expected to have quite some effect already. The swipebug made fixing cavalry urgent in the VI patch, which was also the only patch.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gah . OK I meant pre patch. Back when you were lucky to get two complete games in a night. That people complain about the lag and drops in MTW2 seems quite funny to me in comparison. I was just lazy in my post Sorry. I agree with all you said.

[Puzz3D]

MTW had severe network instability, and it was corrected within 2 months. RTW also had the same problem, and that got corrected in 5 months. M2TW has the same problem, and at 6 months it's still not corrected. There does appear to be a downward trend.

[TosaInu]

MTW had 1 patch, VI had 1 patch, RTW (pre X-pack release) had 1 patch. M2TW has two big patches now. An upward trend?

Edit: it even had a pseudo official public beta.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

MTW had severe network instability, and it was corrected within 2 months

Well looking back that was the longest two months of my life then. It seemed to last for ever .

MTW had 1 patch, VI had 1 patch, RTW (pre X-pack release) had 1 patch. M2TW has two big patches now. An upward trend?

Now the question is will there be another before the expansion? Would it be better to stick with this title and keep improving it than trying to come up with another new TW game?

[TosaInu]

Now the question is will there be another before the expansion? Would it be better to stick with this title and keep improving it than trying to come up with another new TW game?

Hello Gawain of Orkeny,

I do not know, sorry. The Sega site lists August 2007 as release date. I doubt we'll see a 3rd patch before that. I think there will be a 1.3 to make M2TW online compatible with Kingdoms. So, no 3rd patch before release. But, that's just me.

It would be -for MP, but maybe also for SP- a nice thing if this took a slightly different route. MP is a lot of fun, and there's still a lot to do with gamemodes. I understand that content is something that sells, but I'ld rather see some more polishing of the engine, expanding the options and ensuring that this not too big community had means to stick together, even though they do different things.

It's basically the same game from the same developer, roughly attracting the same fanbase (whether you like a given title or not). All titles are played, by the same kind of people, yet each has to use his own lobby. The small base is confined to individual islands.

It's a dutch daydream perhaps and I'm sure it can't be done with what has been released so far (unless you find a moneyforest). MP is a lobby for likeminded to chat, arrange battles and then a game starts which is some sort of chess using graphics and rules. Those graphics and rules change and you can add new options, but it's always that (anything computer is dynamically changing 1 to 0 and vice versa, so nothing bad about it).

The gamedeveloper updates his engine, adds features, modes, graphics, units. Most will have to be purchased, but there can be some free files too. If only patches to ensure the coremodules continue working. I have 'STW' with old features, perhaps it's updated a bit, you have 'M3TW', but we are in the same foyer and not 1,000 cybermiles apart from each other. You can decide to have a game with me, as you also happen to have the required modules to play 'STW'. No rebooting or swapping required.
We can also plug in a free fanmade mod and play that. No rebooting, no swapping, no pulling hairs to make it work. The mod is written for an older version, but that's no problem as the core handles all, after all it's a chess game with graphics and rules.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

after all it's a chess game with graphics and rules.

Thats all I ask for

[TosaInu]

:)

Don't really know how to put it in other words.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well to me the graphics in VI were and still are perfectly fine as long as the game play is good. So theres not that much work to be done

[TosaInu]

Hello Gawain of Orkeny,

I think there's an performance argument to go from 2D to 3D. Graphic cards can do more work on the units, 2D is more a CPU job. Not sure whether this is relative, absolute or even true. Of course, the units in RTW/M2TW are more detailed so the benefit is gone anyway?

An entry level system could run a 4v4 @ 200 unitsize in MTW without lag. If it were the same computer and game, but using 3D graphics of the same size and quality, it could be 4v4 @ 400, because the graphics card can be put to work, relieving the CPU. Again, that's one of the illusions in my head.

If above is true, you could perhaps also have a 6V6 @200 (I know it doesn't equal 4v4 @ 400, but another bottleneck may kick in when adding units rather than men). So, there's a gameplay benefit. One day we'll play 100v100 and control one unit each

True, people are still playing the older titles and having/try to have fun with it. Gamespy still offers a lobby for MTV and VI, but that is about all support you get for the older titles. I know that's how things are with software, but you're left on an island with a few likeminded. Bad luck if your shiny new hardware or OS doesn't support it anymore. Bad luck when others move on to another place to play an updated version of the same game from the same developer.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Bad luck if your shiny new hardware or OS doesn't support it anymore. Bad luck when others move on to another place to play an updated version of the same game from the same developer.

Tell me about it. My new 8800GTS wont run VI lol.