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Thread: Valuing Genocide

  1. #91
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Right. And what's the word for people who go around believing things like that ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  2. #92
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Gawain,what are you talking about? That has nothing to do with the houlacuast. Im almost sure God didnt come down to Hitler and say"hey if you wipe out the jews I'll give you the biggest cookie you've ever seen.the biggest!" Are you saying Hitler was like God to the German people and they would follow him to the end and thats why they did this? I find it abhorrent no one (or very few) tried to stop this. I understand the jews wernt exactly your best friend but come on. If the president came on the tele tommorow and said any group needed to be excluded based on race or religon he would be done away with. That is the biggest tragdey in this whole thing, very few tried to stop Hitler. They Germans put all there faith in a man who in the end was only responsible for German dead and lost German terrioritory.
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  3. #93
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Right. And what's the word for people who go around believing things like that ?
    In this case it would be Watchman

    Gawain,what are you talking about? That has nothing to do with the houlacuast. I
    I never said it did. I said the title of this thread reminded me of a hypothitical idea i had. I went on to ask about it. Its not really so hard to grasp.
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  4. #94
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Carthage aside, during the praetorship of Galba in Spain (150 BCE), the Lusitanians had revolted, and since he couldn't defeat them in the field (he did, but his pursuit scattered his army, and the Lusitanians smashed them) he sued for peace. He 'understood' their plight, sent them to 'richer' lands.
    The 'richer lands' were slaughter pens that his army set up, after they had been disarmed. They were slaughtered by the thousands.

    Sounds like a genocide to me. Galba profited from the bounty. The Romans had to constantly put out the guerilla forces of the remaining Lusitanians for years afterwards.

    Don't trust me? Look at 'Chronicles of the Roman Republic'.

    Anyway, genocide was used to gain quick profit, and long-term benefits if you were able to wipe the entire population out. However, with modern society, a genocide isn't called for, and thus society has looked down upon it.

    My 2 cents.
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  5. #95
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Lets say god comes down in person and tells everyone. Thats why i say If you knew. Were taking it for granted that you know. There is no doubt.
    Well, first I would ask him why he didn't fix it himself (getting world peace forever is much harder), second question would be what's the catch is. How would this world peace come? How is overpopulation stopped? Then I would check out his credentials, as 1 existing divine being indicates more, so how can I be certain that this is a good one?

    Then I would probably still say no, simply on the mere suspicion.

    The problem with you hypothetical scenario is that it's practical application will simply be that your utopia is always one group away, no matter how many you've killed before... Making the original question moot.

    That is unless your utopia is some kind of oppressive "Big Brother" state, then you can probably maintain it relativly easily during your lifetime after the first kills of the opposition, although making it maintain itself during your successor is way harder.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  6. #96
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    In this case it would be Watchman
    I don't recall ever identifying myself with the nameless hypothetical subject of your hypothesis, and would appreciate if you kept me out of your kinky fantasy scenarios in public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    Carthage aside, during the praetorship of Galba in Spain (150 BCE), the Lusitanians had revolted, and since he couldn't defeat them in the field (he did, but his pursuit scattered his army, and the Lusitanians smashed them) he sued for peace. He 'understood' their plight, sent them to 'richer' lands.
    The 'richer lands' were slaughter pens that his army set up, after they had been disarmed. They were slaughtered by the thousands.

    Sounds like a genocide to me. Galba profited from the bounty. The Romans had to constantly put out the guerilla forces of the remaining Lusitanians for years afterwards.

    Don't trust me? Look at 'Chronicles of the Roman Republic'.

    Anyway, genocide was used to gain quick profit, and long-term benefits if you were able to wipe the entire population out. However, with modern society, a genocide isn't called for, and thus society has looked down upon it.

    My 2 cents.
    You're confusing "ruthless massacre" with "genocide" here. The Romans never had any interest in eradicating the Lusitanians as a people (and indeed would probably have had considerable trouble even comprehending that kind of thinking); destroying them as a power and opponent was an entirely different thing - and given that Galba's little escapade (I understand his men just killed the men of military age and sold the others to slavery incidentally - sounds almost more like a fairly elaborate and large-scale slaving operation for quick profit than anything else) was before the Lusitanian War with Viriatus at the head, where the Romans lost several whole armies against them, I'd say the Lusitani losses in that were not exactly massive in proportion to their actual population. It's not like Galba seems to have exactly followed up that piece of nastiness with any further operations either, and one suspects he would not have been able to even if he wanted.
    Plus his head nearly rolled for the whole business back in Rome. The Romans weren't exactly the kindest of people, but one would imagine such reneging on treaties on your own account was not well thought of.

    Anyway, once the Romans finally subdued the Lusitanians they treated them pretty much like any other subjugated provincials and over time more or less Romanized the lot.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  7. #97
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    All in all I find it funny people get so attached to being "German" Every time wurstfest happens I get nuaseted when all these white trash country bumpkins stop being Americans and put on leederhoosen try to stuff nine inches down there thorat and run around speaking broken German. Your family came over in 1850 get a job. I swear between this and Fiesta Im surprised I havent burned the city down.
    Strrrrrike!

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Strrrrrike!

    SftS, some of your posts make me laugh so loud my colleagues start phoning the men in white with the shot and the straight-jacket.
    Well said.
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    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    I think the reason that the Holocaust was so big lays in its location. It happened in Central and Western Europe, a place that to most Americans at the time would probably have been viewed as "cultured" while everyone else were savages.

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  10. #100
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    Carthage aside, during the praetorship of Galba in Spain (150 BCE), the Lusitanians had revolted, and since he couldn't defeat them in the field (he did, but his pursuit scattered his army, and the Lusitanians smashed them) he sued for peace. He 'understood' their plight, sent them to 'richer' lands.
    The 'richer lands' were slaughter pens that his army set up, after they had been disarmed. They were slaughtered by the thousands.

    Sounds like a genocide to me. Galba profited from the bounty. The Romans had to constantly put out the guerilla forces of the remaining Lusitanians for years afterwards.

    Don't trust me? Look at 'Chronicles of the Roman Republic'.

    Anyway, genocide was used to gain quick profit, and long-term benefits if you were able to wipe the entire population out. However, with modern society, a genocide isn't called for, and thus society has looked down upon it.

    My 2 cents.
    Yes I've heard of Galba, however he wasn't seen as representing Rome but he was a local governor gone mad. Rome tried all they could to dispose of him after the event. I think he got away IIRC, but I don't recall exactly how the story ended.
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  11. #101
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    There is NO value to genocide.
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Well bugger me sideways with a yardbrush. Dave has got it .
    Gaqwain cn you see the fauklt yet ?

  13. #103
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
    That sounds like the Lusitanian massacres.
    Galba tried to kill an entire group (or a good portion), he caused mental harm, and he forcibly transferred the group to another (slavery).
    Where does mass murder stop and genocide begin, because I have the feeling that this is a genocide.
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  14. #104
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    If one wants to get nitpicky, perfectly normal warfare already falls within the defintions of the bit you quoted... since two warring nations' armies are by default "killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" and so on. By that same token the Lusitanians were engaging in "genocide" every time they bushwhacked a Roman army, and the Cisalpine Gauls every time they raided into Italy proper... heck the Celts and Germans and all the others with traditions of raiding their neighbours would have been engaging in "genocide" against themselves, Alexander the Great against the Greeks when he had Theba razed, and let's not even get started on everyone involved in the Thirty Years' War...

    I don't particularly like this way the concept of "genocide" tends to get banalized these days. It dilutes the weight and meaning of the term when it is applied to simple bloodbaths and massacres. IMO it only becomes valid for those when they are part of an actual campaign to genuinely exterminate a people - but hardly when the ultimate goal is defeating and subjugating the other.
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  15. #105
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Precisely.

    A genocide is when, if all goes according to your terrible plan, you no longer have anyone of that particular ethnicity to rule over.

    Anything else, including massacres to subdue and control, falls short.

    Edit:

    To compare "genocides" and decide which is the most terrible is frankly wrong. In this case it may well be an attempt at self-justification.
    Last edited by Slyspy; 05-19-2007 at 02:30.
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    Where does mass murder stop and genocide begin, because I have the feeling that this is a genocide.
    That's one of the biggest problems with our current definitions of genocide. It's a little vague when something becomes a genocide, especially since half of the definition is intention rather than action.

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  17. #107
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    I find it abhorrent no one (or very few) tried to stop this. I understand the jews wernt exactly your best friend but come on. If the president came on the tele tommorow and said any group needed to be excluded based on race or religon he would be done away with. That is the biggest tragdey in this whole thing, very few tried to stop Hitler. They Germans put all there faith in a man who in the end was only responsible for German dead and lost German terrioritory.

    Why ? It is quite simple. Cult of OBEDIENCE and uniform which is often linked to the first one.
    From the time of first kings in Prussia (official title) military discipline was getting more important in the whole state. Add to this lutheran obedience born from grim assumption your fate is sealed already and you have all you need to follow anyone.
    In additionlets not forget that Hitler was victorious and there was this historical 'luck' which often followed Prussia in worst situations ( 1763, 1807) where despite catastrophic situation it got away without a scratch or even larger than before.
    Even in 1945 this belief existed - Hitler persoanlly believed in another miracle just like the one during the 7-years war namely - a split between the Allies and the Soviets.

  18. #108
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    born from grim assumption your fate is sealed already and you have all you need to follow anyone.
    That sounds like Calvinism.


    So war is genocide, so war is bad.
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  19. #109
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    So war is genocide, so war is bad.
    Not necessarily.

    Slyspy (and others) sums it up pretty well: war is not necessarily genocide. A genocide requires an intention to exterminate for the sake of extermination. There is nothing less than that and that's why it's a pretty chilling thing. You die because you are Tutsi and Tutsis are to die; not because I want to subjugate you, rob you of money, rape your wife and enslave your children for power and profit. I just want you dead no matter what.

    The Romans are different. They want the slaves and the gold. They are just a little too willing to slaughter entire cities for it. Mind you, the slaughter on Carthage could be argued as a proper case of genocide, if there is enough evidence that the Romans pretty much carried out the task because they want no Carthaginians left in the world to oppose them.

    That the public imagination of genocide is focused on the Holocaust does not bother me except in cases where people ignore other genocides in favor of this one, which I tend to blame on the average audience's ignorance rather than the Jewish filmmaker's choice of subject anyway. People who blame Spielberg for filming Schinder's List and not Hotel Rwanda tends to be a little...ah...anti-semitic. A little.

  20. #110
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    hm, interesting thread. What about the genocide against the Phillippinos conducted by American soldiers during the rebellion?

    or worse, what can only be termed genocide by Columbus and his cronies in the New World?
    Last edited by Zaknafien; 05-21-2007 at 01:27.


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  21. #111
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    hm, interesting thread. What about the genocide against the Phillippinos conducted by American soldiers during the rebellion?
    I wasn't aware that there was a genocide...?

  22. #112
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    well yeah, they dont teach that stuff in high school unfortunately.. At least one million civilians perished from outright slaughter, disease, and famine between 1899 and 1913, and American forces burnt large areas of crops and placed many Filipinos in internment camps. Such a massacre happened in the town of Balangiga, where they killed males from ages 8 to 60. This was called the "Kill and Burn" method. General Arthur MacArthur, Jr. boasted that 15 Filipinos were killed for every one wounded.


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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    well yeah, they dont teach that stuff in high school unfortunately.. At least one million civilians perished from outright slaughter, disease, and famine between 1899 and 1913, and American forces burnt large areas of crops and placed many Filipinos in internment camps. Such a massacre happened in the town of Balangiga, where they killed males from ages 8 to 60. This was called the "Kill and Burn" method. General Arthur MacArthur, Jr. boasted that 15 Filipinos were killed for every one wounded.
    Ah yes, genocide seems to be the only answer one can think of during a guerilla war.

  24. #114
    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    ...which, whether I believe you or not is unnecessary, as it is not genocide still, as explained earlier by various people?

    The term is specific: it refers to a particular type of mass-murder with a definition that focused on the intention and not just the mere act. I'm not convinced the USA went to the Philippines for a specific desire to exterminate every Filipino in existence. Subjugation, conquest, evil misguided foolishness and damnable Imperialism, maybe, depends on your point of view, but not genocide.

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Its started because a Filipino soldier crossed into American territory (or side, whatever) and it was believed the American gave fair warnings before firing.

    The Filipinos could not beat the U.S., so they turned to guerrilla tactics, which angered the U.S. and so they started to shoot surrendering troops and set up camps for suspected guerrillas.

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    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Still, I don't understand the title. There is no value to Genocide.

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  27. #117
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    Based on the first post, I would guess that the meaning behind the title was evaluating genocide, and that it was just poorly expressed.

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  28. #118
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    I think the key concept to determining 'genocide' is the idea of eradication. You are seeking to extinguish not an uprising, not a revolt, not even an idea but a population. As such, genocide has more to do with motivation than it does with numbers or methods employed. Certainly, what the Soviets did and what the Chinese did and what the Khmer Rouge did, and what the Japanese did, and for that matter what the Americans have done at times are all atrocious acts.

    But the German holocaust stands in very sparse company indeed. We were not trying to annhiliate the Sioux, we were trying to end Sioux autonomy and Sioux culture. The Japanese were not trying to annhiliate the Chinese, they were trying to assert themselves over them. In fact, of all the examples I've seen cited, I believe the only one that matches the Shoah in terms of reaching the level of genocide was the Hutuu agression against the Tutsis. They really did want to annhiliate not just Tutsis in Rwanda, but the very idea of Tutsis, anywhere they lived.

    Anyway, what's the point of this thread? If I rob an orphan or a widow, am I any less a thief? If my goal is to line my own pockets or to enviously deny them what limited resources they have, am I any less wicked?


    As for the sub-thread Gawain started, @Gawain I'm aware you were raising a hypothetical in the 'I get to set all the rules and assumptions' hypothetical sense. Tribesman and Watchman weren't being obtuse, they were refusing to acquiese to the terms you laid. Even assuming what you posed was possible, I would have to say such an act would be self-defeating. How can you eradicate a population to create peace? That's the peace of the grave. Doc Bean gave you the best possible answer... the only way your scenario would work would be if the 'race' in question were the human race.

    What's more, let's just suppose human behavior in Gawain's universe doesn't mirror reality, and with the extermination of the last 'bad guy', no new 'bad guys' arose. It would still be wrong, for several reasons. 1) Desire to do evil is not doing evil. Killing all people that have that desire would be wrong, as they may never actually act on it. 2) You leave no room for redemption, or remorse. Yes, human history is filled with dark deeds of depravity. But it's also filled with inspiring stories of leopards that changed their spots.

    Eradicating them, or even entertaining the fantasy of eradicating them misses the mark. The cure for hate is not a bigger stick. You have to address it and cure it with philios. Yes, violence to make the hateful pause in their mayhem may be necessary. But it can never be viewed as the solution in and of itself.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-21-2007 at 21:18.
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  29. #119

    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    The thread title was meant to question the value or importance placed on some genocides over others.... ie. Why is the Holocaust given far more attention than the Armenian Genocide. I think that question has been answered quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    I think the key concept to determining 'genocide' is the idea of eradication. You are seeking to extinguish not an uprising, not a revolt, not even an idea but a population. As such, genocide has more to do with motivation than it does with numbers or methods employed. Certainly, what the Soviets did and what the Chinese did and what the Khmer Rouge did, and what the Japanese did, and for that matter what the Americans have done at times are all atrocious acts.

    Going by that, the Russian genocide(s) are far worse than the German one, as they completely eliminated many ethnic groups within the USSR and Eastern Europe.

  30. #120
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Valuing Genocide

    PJ you are trying to convince a bunch of people whose granpappys beat your granpappy that the nazis wernt that bad. It isnt going to happen.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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