HRE: Your core plan.

**Shahed** · 05-16-2007, 09:39

Greetings Everyone !

Looking forward to starting a game as the HRE soon.

I'd like you all to fill in the guilds, settlement type (castle, city), specialisation etc for the following. Just to have an idea of what everyone here does. If you don't feel like filling it all in just post whatever you do.

These will be the core HRE regions, I'm not going for 45 victory goal. I'll think of some goals along the way, of my own.
I've split them into broad areas, easier to que stuff in game.

Scandinavia
Stockholm
Oslo
Arhus

East
Stettin
Breslau
Prague
Breslau

Central
Frankfurt
Nuremburg
Staufen
Bern
Hamburg
Magdeburg
Innsbruck
Vienna

West
Metz
Antwerp
Bruges

Balkan
Zagreb
Ragusa
Durazzo

Italy
Milan
Genoa
Venice
Bologna
Florence
Rome
Naples
Palermo

GOALS

Create and maintain the Holy Roman Allaince: England, Poland, Hungary, France, HRE.
Take the above regions as core Holy Roman Empire.
Maintain military supremacy at ALL times (strongest faction).
Maintain most developed status.
Maintain greatest economic power status.
Destory the Papacy and exile them to Rhodes.
Destroy the Milanese, Venetians, Danes. Sicilians.
Crusade on the Mongols & Timurids, and destroy them.

These are my suggestions for HRE Armies.
Please feel free to challenge, question, advise, comment etc.

HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE

EARLY
Cavalry: Mailed Knights.
Missile: None.
Artillery: Ballistae.
Assault/Anti Cavalry: Halberd Militia_Chain Mail.
Swords: Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spears: Spear Militia_Padded.

HIGH
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile: Crossbow Militia_Chain Mail.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault: Zweihander.
Anti-Cavary/Assault Support: Mounted Imperial Knights, Halberd Militia_Heavy Mail.
Swords: Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spears: Sargeant Spearmen_Heavy Mail.

LATE
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile: Pavise Crossbowmen_Chain Mail.
Artillery: Ballistae, Trebuchet.
Assault: Dismounted Gothic Knights.
Anti-Cavalry/Assault Support: Mounted Gothic Knights, Zweihander.
Swords: None.
Spears: Armored Sargeants_Heavy Mail.

GUNPOWDER
Cavalry: Teutonic Knights.
Missile Cavalry: Reiters.
Missile: Arqbusiers.
Anti Personnel Artillery: Serpentine.
Heavy Artillery/Anti Personnel Artillery Support: Basilisk.
Assault: Dismounted Gothic Knights, Folorn Hope.
Anti Cavalry/Assault Support: Mounted Gothic Knights, Zweihander.
Swords: None.
Spears: None.
Pikemen: Pike Militia.

Looking forward to your suggestions.

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**sapi** · 05-16-2007, 10:03

Well, if I'm not in the mood to toy with the AI, the path to victory is pretty simple: (NB: Can't remember city names offhand and don't have a map nearby, so be nice)

Turn 1:
- Stip all garrisons and attack nearest rebel city (inc. Hamburg, which your northern army can beat the danes to easily)
- Build queue: city upgrades > ports > roads > grain exchanges > farming

Turn 2:
- Replenish garrisons.
- Train only mailed knights/mounted sgts in castles

Turns 3-5: (if you don't autoresolve, which is cheap)
- Wait out sieges. When done,
- Work in 6-cavalry groups with a general lead. Send one group into france, one into poland and, if you can afford it, one into hungury. Very important to neuter the missile cav of the latter two factions early.

Turn 5-10
- Continue smashing the armies of france/poland/hungury/denmark, using mercs to take and hold cities
- Use the Kaiser's army to either sack rome or milan/genoa to boost the treasury.

From then onwards, the world is your oyster

**Shahed** · 05-16-2007, 10:08

JAWOHL MEIN KAISER !

I've done that in probably 6 hours (probably 2 or 3) autoresolving all the way to Constantinople in the East and York in the West (Spain etc dead) Here I'm trying to make it something more. Added some goals in there. I think HRE is a great faction, can make for some great games. Hmm maybe add an AI money script....

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**Husar** · 05-16-2007, 10:48

I find it weird that you want to destroy and exile the pope.
IIRC Charlemagne and his holy roman empire were the "guard" of the pope and every Kaiser was only Kaiser after the pope made him one, later many gave the title to themselves, but originally you were only Kaiser after the pope made you that, without the pope you were just a king. So, why destroy and exile the one who is included in the process of making a heir a Kaiser?

(also reminds me that kings were elected by the lords of the HRE, maybe CA could include that in Medieval 3?)

**econ21** · 05-16-2007, 10:52

Husar: you should read up on the Investiture Crisis. M2TW starts with the HRE at something of a low point, because Pope Gregory broke away and asserted his independence from the Reich.

Sinan: can I interest you in joining our ongoing HRE PBM, King of the Romans?

History is here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82780

And battle reports are here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77457

I think you would enjoy it - we've divided the HRE into four Houses (Swabia - west; Bavaria - south; Austria - east; Franconia - north) and are now staking out a Kingdom of Outremer. Each player is represented by a general - we have a spare one for you now (a Franconian) if you want to join:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...75&postcount=8

Generals fight their own battles, vote on policy and elect a leader (Chancellor) every 10 turns.

Originally Posted by Sinan

Crusade on the Mongols & Timurids, and destroy them.

Interesting idea.

It's 1200 AD in our PBM. If you join now, you could participate in this.

Post here if you are interested:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84612

**Shahed** · 05-16-2007, 16:06

Originally Posted by Husar

I find it weird that you want to destroy and exile the pope.
So, why destroy and exile the one who is included in the process of making a heir a Kaiser?

Well firstly I quote myself:

I'm not going for 45 victory goal. I'll think of some goals along the way, of my own.

Hi Husar, I should have mentioned here: "I'm not trying to reenact history." Now to answer your questions, I don't find it weird to destory the Pope. Rome is a victory condition for the HRE and I (note the keyword is I) intend to achieve this victory condition through war with all the Italians. For this game I (<-keyword) want Italy as HRE. Now I'm not playing a historical game. I want to destroy the Pope because it's one of those annoying factions walking all over your territiory. I want to destroy the Pope because that is usually the most powerful faction. They will compete with my goals e.g Strongest faction at all times. So that's it, nothing personal against the Pope. I want to play an aggressive HRE campaign, but not the IMO ridiculous 45 region GC= global conquest, game.

Der Weg ist das Ziel.
English lit: The way is the goal / The goal is not important, but the path.

BTW in another thread (Reiters I believe) you mentioned that playing HRE can feel nationalistic. I am not nationalistic at all, I believe in people not borders, not corporations. I believe in values and principles. However here I am playing a game. It's like when you were a kid and played cowboys and Indians, you never go around howling like an Apache, it's just during the game. Besides, German achievements give the Germans plenty to be nationalistic about. Of course, I do not support nationalism of any nation, to any degree. It sets one people as higher than another, and ethically, this is just plain evil.

However, one should note.
When you grow up, part of being male is to have a healthy dose of controlled aggression. The lion, leader of the pride (the cubs and the lionesses), is most handsome when looking for food. He is most aggressive but also most alert and intelligent. Of course this animal distinction about being male is eroded in contemporary society, but thankfully in games we can still exercise the primal (hopefully in bed too!).

Alle Wege führen nach Rom.
Engish lit: All roads lead to Rome.
Husar please correct my grammar and spelling if I make mistakes in German. BTW any recommendations for my EMPIRE ?
Auf wiederhoren mein Freund.

Econ thanks very much for the offer.
I like the General, he's green and he can be the Scourge of the Mongols.
I would absolutely LOVE to play that guy and go out hunting for the Mongols.
Does he get his own custom army or what army is he deployed to command ?

Beware !!! the REICH shall show it's OBVIOUS superiority through BATTLE !.

LOL ! I hope... Nein ! I'm certain ! Only I don't want to join because my rig is not really that great, and I'd like to post nice screenshots. I'm thinking about a new rig but it's abit of a waste right now. That is an excellent campaign though.

May I please have the savegame when the Mongols arrive? I'd like to see it at that stage.
Also your sig, is that campaign still on after all these years ?

IHRE BEFEHL MEIN KAISER!!!
English lit: Your mission/command my Emperor !
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**Flavius Merobaudes** · 05-16-2007, 22:15

Congrats Sinan! It fills me with nationalistic pride that you have chosen to become a member of our glorious nation. May the superiority of the Reich evolve in front of your eyes during your campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
who speaks Urdu might also understand German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilige...6misches_Reich

I'm currently 40 turns in my campaign. I didn't have any goals when starting but developped them while playing. The HRE starts with many possible enemies and it seemed wise to get rid of one of them right in the beginning. I picked Denmark. I moved my northernmost army to lay siege on Hamburg. I waited two turns until the Danish armies had passed by for Antwerpen and Stettin, then lifted the siege of Hamburg only to besiege Arhus. So those Vikings could benefit from being part of the Reich, too. Call it cheating or not, but dumbness has to be punished, even if it's the AI.

Meanwhile I rushed the surrounding settlements: Herzog Dietrich von Sachsen occupied Magdeburg and Stettin, Hofmarschall Maximillian Mahndorf conquered Breslau and Landgraf Otto von Kassel and Prinz Leopold took over control in Prag, thereby crushing the Slavonic uprisings. Prinz Henry defeated the rebellious Burgundians and occupied Metz, while the Kaiser himself conquered Florenz to strengthen the Reichs position as defender of the Pope.

All over the Reich churches were built to raise the populations piety and spread the true faith. Next were roads, so that the Kaiser's ministerials could defend his interests in every corner of the Reich and boost the economy. Alliances were formed with all states except Denmark and Poland. The alliance with France was sealed by the marriage of their princess Constance to our future Kaiser. Trade rights were offered to all known nations. After building churches and allying with the Pope, I was his best friend and Prinz Leopold led a crusade to Riga.

Scandinavia and Antwerpen were integrated into the Reich.

Following 3 or 4 years of consolidation, we attacked the Poles in Thorn and Krakau simultaneously. Only one province left, they agreed to a ceasefire gladly and were given traderights and an alliance for their good sense.

After that, those merchants from Milan betrayed us. Of course they were no match for the armies of the Reich. The betrayers were executed and their lands integrated into the Reich.

Today, the Reich has reached a reasonable extension. We are superior to any other nation in the world regarding our military and economy, while we are in a competition with the Greeks' empire for cultural leadership. The Reich will focus on building from now on, taking war only to those irrational enough to attack us first. As the prime defenders of christianity, we can expect privileges from the pope. If he is not willing to fullfill our wishes -

Here's the plan:

Scandinavia
Stockholm - city, merchants guild
Oslo - city, explorers guild
Arhus - city, merchants guild

East
Stettin - city, merchants guild
Breslau - castle, Teutonic Knights
Prague - city, merchants guild
Thorn - castle, Teutonic Knights HQ
Krakau - city, Teutonic Knights
Riga - city, Teutonic Knights

Central
Frankfurt - city, merchants guild
Nuremberg - CAPITAL, theologians guild
Staufen - city, assasins guild HQ
Bern - castle, swordsmiths guild
Hamburg - city, merchants guild HQ
Magdeburg - city, merchants guild
Innsbruck - city, merchants guild
Vienna - city, merchants guild

West
Metz - castle, swordsmiths guild
Antwerp - city, merchants guild

Italy
Milan - city, merchants guild
Genoa - city, merchants guild
Venice - city, thieves guild HQ
Bologna - city, merchants guild
Florence - castle, swordsmiths guild HQ
Ajaccio - city, merchants guild

Some of the merchants guilds will be substituted by alchemists guilds later on. It's impossible to get horsebreeders guilds as HRE.

Btw there's no need to feel nationalistic when playing HRE. It was the most liberal state in europe throughout most of medieval times. There were courts were citizens could sue even nobles and actually win. There were reasons why the persecuted jews from Spain settled in the HRE, particularly the Netherlands. Later on, the Reich became more and more corrupt, and the power of the emperor faded away while the smaller landlords gained in might. This made it easier for neighbouring countries to get their piece of the cake. Just watch how the French-German border moves east over time. In addition to that, there was the Thirty Years' War, in which Germany suffered the most. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

A German national feeling and national identity developed for the first time after the French Revolution and while being occupied by Napoleon. German nationalism in its negative ways is a rather young phenomenon.
Although the 12 years of nazi reign were horrible enough and will follow us like a shadow, everyone should be aware of the other 1200 years of German history as well. Yes, we Germans have achieved some things to be proud on, but others have as well. Stop now, don't want to get too sentimental.

Für Gott, Kaiser und Vaterland! Ran an den Feind! - Close in on the enemy!

**Shahed** · 05-17-2007, 18:58

Excellent post ! Thanks for the write up, links and the guild plan. GREAT stuff !

Why is it not possible to get horse breeder's guilds as HRE ?

Ran an den Feind!
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**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 05-17-2007, 19:36

Interesting. I'm playing through a Long HRE (Vh/h) with the new 1.2 patch and was having a ball until the Danes betrayed me. I'm only at war with them and the Milanese, who I'm slowly annexing.

The Hungarians are looking for trouble though.

**Flavius Merobaudes** · 05-17-2007, 20:33

HRE has no cavalry which is recruited in cities. Therefore no horsebreeders guild unless you're lucky to conquer one. But it seems the AI is too fast accepting thieves guilds. But Teutonic Knights + Tournament + Swordsmiths are enough to give your heavy infantry a nice boost. You noticed the AOR I've established for TKs near my eastern border? They will smash those Mongols should they have the boldness to mess with the Reich.

**Shahed** · 05-17-2007, 20:55

Alexander, did you not swoop aside the Danes right at the beginning ?

Flavius, I noticed. Heavy concentration of Teutons there for sure ! It's a Teuton state ! Well IMO they are the best cavalry per se for the Reich. Gothic Knights are great but I find their speed makes them ... slow. I use them as well (see "Best of class"thread) in an assault (Zweihander) support role. EDIT: I've added an army composition section to the first post. It is possible to get the HorseBreeder's Guild as HRE. You will need to produce greater than 50 cavalry from the same castle, and then convert it to a city.

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