Are the Romans too Powerful?

[OliverWKim]

I am running vanilla RTW at 1.5. To compare the troop qualities of the Greeks and the Romans I created a custom battle with one army of only Spartan hoplites, all upgraded veterans, and another army of Roman troops, all of which were Legionary 1st Cohorts, upgraded to the max. The Spartans were defending an unwalled minor city, sort of like Sparta in the 'Siege of Sparta' historical battle. According to their unit card description, they are 'perfect soldiers'. However, in reality, they were massacred to the last man by my endless waves of Roman legionnaires, even when I set the difficulty to the highest possible level. Even though this was not really a formal, scientific, closed-system no-variable experiment, the fact that these Roman legionnaires could basically chew up and spit out the very, very, very, very best the Greek cities can offer chills me. Does anyone else recognize this problem?

[King of Finland]

Yes other factions have no chance against romans. They have the best infantry, reasonable cavalry and archers. Egypt might be the second best faction. Rest are barbarians or only phalanx nations. In that perspective RTW is unbalanced . In M2TW theres no supreme faction.

[guineawolf]

I am running vanilla RTW at 1.5. To compare the troop qualities of the Greeks and the Romans I created a custom battle with one army of only Spartan hoplites, all upgraded veterans, and another army of Roman troops, all of which were Legionary 1st Cohorts, upgraded to the max. The Spartans were defending an unwalled minor city, sort of like Sparta in the 'Siege of Sparta' historical battle. According to their unit card description, they are 'perfect soldiers'. However, in reality, they were massacred to the last man by my endless waves of Roman legionnaires, even when I set the difficulty to the highest possible level. Even though this was not really a formal, scientific, closed-system no-variable experiment, the fact that these Roman legionnaires could basically chew up and spit out the very, very, very, very best the Greek cities can offer chills me. Does anyone else recognize this problem?

do you ever upgrade those armor of spartan hoplites?
i think the real problem is the comparisom of their armor,do you realize that roman legion have the hardest armor in the RTW(except cataphract of coz)

[Stuperman]

Historically Roman Legions did conquer most of europe, north africa, asia minor, the 'holy lands', and as far east as the persian gulf and armenia under Trajan, so it's not like it's totally inaccurate.

were the flanks secure in your test battle?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Sadly, I do agree. Post-Marian reforms, the Roman units are almost unstoppable. R:TW certainly is quite imbalanced in this regard, much worse than all other TW games, and in many others.

It seems as if the Romans are engineered to rule the world, as they almost did historically, but they did not conquer lands as quickly as R:TW portrays - R:TW shows them having their empire at it's largest extent by about 100BC when really it was at this point by two hundered years later.

[Noir]

Now add the fact that post Marian Roman units are supported from 3 separate factions and how fast the Marian Reforms themselves can happen...

RTW vanilla - any version - is unbalanced beyond redemption and in fact many battle oriented mods came out originally in order to deal with this and the gross historical innacuracies.

Many Thanks

Noir

[Stuperman]

I will admit that I hate how early the reforms come, I've had them as early as 230 BC, personally I'd like them at the historical time of 107. But the intense discipline and training that the soldiers faced would make them incredibly tough. Especially at that time in history when most opposing army was made up of relitively inexpierenced people forced into military service.

[guineawolf]

I am running vanilla RTW at 1.5. To compare the troop qualities of the Greeks and the Romans I created a custom battle with one army of only Spartan hoplites, all upgraded veterans, and another army of Roman troops, all of which were Legionary 1st Cohorts, upgraded to the max. The Spartans were defending an unwalled minor city, sort of like Sparta in the 'Siege of Sparta' historical battle. According to their unit card description, they are 'perfect soldiers'. However, in reality, they were massacred to the last man by my endless waves of Roman legionnaires, even when I set the difficulty to the highest possible level. Even though this was not really a formal, scientific, closed-system no-variable experiment, the fact that these Roman legionnaires could basically chew up and spit out the very, very, very, very best the Greek cities can offer chills me. Does anyone else recognize this problem?

do you ever noticed your spartan's stamina?
when both side stamina reduce to lowest level,that it will lower their attack and defense "skill"=combat effecientcy,but not their armor value.....
roman legion=12 armor
spartan hoplite=3 armor

i only figure out a way that read in roman history,when using phalanxe for defense,try using some rotation method,that will conserve their stamina,like first line unit fall back behind second line unit after receive first wave of attack for resting,then when the second line unit fall back behind first line unit,those first line units oredi become fresh again,and so on ......

[Afkazar]

i only figure out a way that read in roman history,when using phalanxe for defense,try using some rotation method,that will conserve their stamina,like first line unit fall back behind second line unit after receive first wave of attack for resting,then when the second line unit fall back behind first line unit,those first line units oredi become fresh again,and so on ......

There are a few problems with this theory.
1. Romans enjoy having cav break you side flanks.Any attempt to run away would end in more casualties than normal.
2.Having troops that could be in combat sit and rest seems kinda crazy to me.

However, in reality, they were massacred to the last man by my endless waves of Roman legionnaires

Ahh so thats the problem. Your commanding the romans not the spartans. The AI has proven a bit...Stupid at times. The best way to defend any city is to take your phalanxs,find the main entrances that lead to your town square and place the phalanxs there. You should have about 4 points that need covering. This will allow you to clog the romans at these choke points without the worry of romans hitting you in the back. No one enjoys taking 9 ft spears head on. Not even elephants.

[caravel]

2.Having troops that could be in combat sit and rest seems kinda crazy to me.

It is, because with RTW's game engine there is no tactical advantage to reserving units due to the lack of the squeeze penalty. You may as well through your men into the melee blob and have them fight to wear down the enemy faster. Historically the Romans would have fought similarly, in the pre marian era anyway, to how guineawolf described and it was effective. The formation usually advanced with the Velites up front, the Hastatii behind, Principes behind them and Triarii at the back. These tactics are worthless in RTW due to unrealistic fatigue and exaggerated kill rates, except perhaps for having your velites up front, as you are better of simply bumrushing and encircling.

[guineawolf]

There are a few problems with this theory.
1. Romans enjoy having cav break you side flanks.Any attempt to run away would end in more casualties than normal.
2.Having troops that could be in combat sit and rest seems kinda crazy to me.

yes,it is posible when you are defending a street,mostly i put 3 line of phalanxe waiting for enemy come for slaughter so when they pass through the first line there will be second line of spearwall waiting for them.You dun need to cover all streets,coz enemy won't move a lot to go to your back,mostly they attack from front and your side.

i idn't tell you to run away,but you can wait for the gap that enemy fall back and regroup,in that time,you are free to fall back,let the full strength squad to replace your duty.

[OliverWKim]

I retried the battle experiment, this time with the Spartans upgraded to the max in terms of armor, weapons and veterancy, and suffered the same results. The Spartans' flanks were definitely secure, as they clogged up the streets with unit after unit. However, even then my Romans were able to cut down the Spartans in the flanks until a little vacuum appeared in the flank, and then I ordered them to pour in and cut down the Spartans from the sides.

[guineawolf]

I retried the battle experiment, this time with the Spartans upgraded to the max in terms of armor, weapons and veterancy, and suffered the same results. The Spartans' flanks were definitely secure, as they clogged up the streets with unit after unit. However, even then my Romans were able to cut down the Spartans in the flanks until a little vacuum appeared in the flank, and then I ordered them to pour in and cut down the Spartans from the sides.

perhaps you should try using spartan hoplites to siege roman legions defenses,try set phalanxe off,guard off and use your sword......
coz phalanxe get bonus fighting cavalry,but get penalty fighting infantry...... i think still the 12 armor problem..........

[Noir]

Originally posted by Afkazar
In campaign mode id say it depends how you build your army to counter them.I play as selecuids. half sythed chariots and half cataphract combo has yet to lose me a single battle.I think I've taken on armies 3 times my size and crushed them. Romans should be rightly afraid of 3 things. Elephants,Berserkers and chariots. Romans have to semi prepare on how they plan to combat these threats.Phalanx armies have no trouble with these problems.

Agreed and in fact i implied this earlier when saying that "...Romans can beat the Seleukids and Egyptians with a little patience to shoot the troublesome elephants and chariots". This is made all the more easy in SP as the AI decides to skirmish many times with the chariots if they have bowmen or even worst send them directly front charge to spears.

Sometimes (usually when he has superior power) he goes for a full head on attack combining all units together that its his strong point (as he can control them simultaneously much better than the player) giving some hard times with the chariots.

Originally posted by Afkazar
In multiplayer me and an ally defeated some romans with all phalanx armies. He took spartans and i took sacred band inf.

Is this in a single battle or a series of battles? Is it against a particular set of players or against random unconnected players? How often those opponents have fought an all phalanx army? How experienced are they and how experienced are you? Just a few curiosity questions.

As far as i knew (never was interested in RTW (*edit*in RTW MP, i mean) and as things stand never will be) Roman armies were very much prefered generally in MP with the Seleukids being also a strong choice.

Many Thanks

Noir

[Afkazar]

Is this in a single battle or a series of battles? Is it against a particular set of players or against random unconnected players? How often those opponents have fought an all phalanx army? How experienced are they and how experienced are you? Just a few curiosity questions.
Noir

1. This was a second battle in a series. Though in the first battle my ally took heavy elephants and cav while I took the sacred bands.

2.They seems to know each other somewhat.

3.I dont know It doesnt really say how often your opponents fought all phalanx.

4.Again i dont really know how experienced they are or my ally. Im somewhat of a veteran and Ive been playing for about 9 months. Most of my victories against rome has come by using the Half cataphract-Half chariot army. I have had alot of victories against greeks. The biggest weakness with the greeks is no cav. I picked apart spartan armies using bowmen without using any regular infantry. Backshots work well...

One thing i learned about warfare is even an archer with a shank can drastically change the outcome of close combat. I Recognize the morale penalty of rear charges.

That's too strong - eventually you will trap AI horse archers, and the AI will trap yours, thanks to the inability of the skirmish function to cope with map edges.

If you can't realize when your horse archers are getting to close to the Map edge then horse archers arent for you.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Afkazar
One thing i learned about warfare is even an archer with a shank can drastically change the outcome of close combat. I Recognize the morale penalty of rear charges.

Agreed and Thanks for clarifying - 9 months is quite some time - definitely not new player (depending how often you were playing). I find that elephants add very little for multiplayer but that's another issue.



Noir

[guineawolf]

I am running vanilla RTW at 1.5. To compare the troop qualities of the Greeks and the Romans I created a custom battle with one army of only Spartan hoplites, all upgraded veterans, and another army of Roman troops, all of which were Legionary 1st Cohorts, upgraded to the max. The Spartans were defending an unwalled minor city, sort of like Sparta in the 'Siege of Sparta' historical battle. According to their unit card description, they are 'perfect soldiers'. However, in reality, they were massacred to the last man by my endless waves of Roman legionnaires, even when I set the difficulty to the highest possible level. Even though this was not really a formal, scientific, closed-system no-variable experiment, the fact that these Roman legionnaires could basically chew up and spit out the very, very, very, very best the Greek cities can offer chills me. Does anyone else recognize this problem?

with what i have figured out recently,i got such conclusion:
your Spartans:
28 attack(since against legion=infantry,decrease 4 attack)=24 attack

6 armor
18 defense skill
5 shields
=29 defense


Legion 1st cohorts:
21 attack
25 missiles

15 armor
14 defense skill
5 shields
=34 defense


but it seems Spartans just lost becoz of their low level equipments,let see if they have same level equipments:
Spartans:
still 24 attack

but with 15 armor
18 defense skill
5 shields
=38 defense

exellent morale=14 morale
very good stamina


legion 1st cohorts:
21 attack
25 missiles

15 armor
14 defense skill
5 shields
=34 defense

good morale=10 morale
good stamina

and Spartans got exellent morale and very good stamina that let Spartans fight longer compare to others,yes Spartans are perfect soldiers if they get same protection from their armor as legion does..
Urban cohorts only got 12 morale....

Yes other factions have no chance against romans. They have the best infantry, reasonable cavalry and archers. Egypt might be the second best faction. Rest are barbarians or only phalanx nations. In that perspective RTW is unbalanced . In M2TW theres no supreme faction.

They have the best equip and best train infantry......