Are the Romans too Powerful?

[Ludens]

Sorry, but i lost the flow of thought there - if it gives away (the position advantage) then how can he be showingconsideration for not tiring his units, since he does so (tiring hi units) in the process?

The point is that the A.I. lets you take the height advantage without responding (other than changing it's facing). If, like you suggest, the A.I. does this because it believes it gives it the highest combat modifiers, maintaining or regaining height advantage must mean a trade-off with another combat modifier. The only modifier I can think of is fatigue, but the A.I. shows very little concern for fatigue in other conditions. Ergo, I do not think the A.I. calculates optimal combat modifiers, but instead works with routines.

Not necessarily - when i play MTW & mods the AI seems fully conscious of his overall melee power of his and the opponents army, and if he has more melee infantry than the player he rushes, in a full scale attack and i noticed the same behaviour in RTW. If not, he plays more safe, skirmishing, deploying piece meal and trying out flank moves or just stays there until he is attacked.

He also seems to be doing the same at various times during a battle, ie re-assess and act accordingly.

True. However, as you said it still employs it's spear as cavalry-killers even though they are not suited for that after the 1.1 patch. Again, this suggests to me the A.I. works on routines rather than always calculating combat modifiers.

On the other hand, according to Puzz3D the A.I. of M:TW would never attack an enemy unit with a weaker one, so apparently there is some calculation of modifiers going on. This is not the case in R:TW, though.

In all probability the "men" in the older engine were consisting of a single "dot" concept wise. The combat caclulation it-self could have been very straight forward. In the newer engine, the men being 3-D and all, they should be consisting of a "hit-box" for calculation purposes. The calculation now should be way more complicated in that it has to include where the weapons are falling in order to make a "hit" before the actual calculation can take place (at least i would guess so).

Units in the older engine were very obedient in taking orders and also could do quite amazing courses of action that gave tactical options for the skilled player. One example is the way they spreaded in chasing down routers - you can clearly see that they were operating well in an individual basis.

Another example is that i have seen for example cavalry that charges a close opponent split in two, ending up attacking a second opponent too if you give the order to them to do so in the last moment. In a recent battle i was able to hold up two enemy "blobs" this way until help arrived with 1 single heavy cavalry unit. It shows that the AI was "instilled" in each sprite individually probably, as well as in the unit as a whole.

In RTW units move as one whole/blob and such tricks as well as effective router chasing do not happen (at least i didn't notice them). They also seem to be slightly deficient in the way they gang up on enemy soldiers.

Good points. However, I recall one of the developers stating that they did not implement overhand spears because they had trouble with the hit-boxes. Also, animation speeds also have an influence on combat outcome. Thirdly, I've seen the "general killed" animation start, and suddenly stop without the general dying, apparently because an enemy soldier in the general's vincinity was cut down. This does suggests that combat is calculated on an individual basis.

All in all - the extra complexity seems to have taken out forcibly some of the options engine abilities for tactical depth as there has to be a compromise between what can be achieved (system requirements), what looks believable (appearance - feeling of a battle) and tactical depth. That is tactical depth has to share consideration with two other parameters that "do not care" for it, in fact they contradict it in many cases.

In the end, the results look goofy to me even to this day. The animations of 3-D men, however advanced - still defy belief and are ridiculous, and if i may add of hollywood-like aesthetics that are cheap and populistic IMO. They would need uber computers to make them act really proper, and once one starts going down that route there is no end to the amount of detail you can include.

At the same time, the game suffers on the gameplay side because of this, in the battle-map (and in the campaign map IMO, but that's another story).

Very true, sadly.

[guineawolf]

i am thinking that romans aint that powerful if they do not have that 12 armor,armor piercing pila and swordarm......and every romans unit have better morale than other factions.....romans unit can fight without general.

coz i have try to playing Brutii in different way,since the Brutii are so rich,then i decide to using numbers to overwhelm every faction of the campaign.............(just like the zerg overwhelming those terrans with zerglings)(it is fun to see my enemy killing a lot of my troops but still get exterminated=overwhelming!unstoppable!!!i am going to use eastern infantry next time)

i have use town watch as my regular infantry,but seem the town watch are too weak for combat and it's morale are too low to prolonged their combat,then i decide to build temple of Mars=3 exp(1exp give 1 morale bonus) and 1 morale bonus=give 4 morale bonus(since Mars also got increase tradeable goods by 2 compare to Mercury).And i am using generals with morale boost retinue and traits to boost town watch low morale...

my town watch have fight greek armour hoplites,hoplites,militia hoplites and spartans..
Fighting militia hoplite is easy,same armor,easy kill...hoplites?slower a bit than militia since only 6 armor,spartans same with hoplite just take out a lot of my troops...then armoured hoplites,that is pain in the ass,i can't even take down 1 unit of armoured hoplites with 20 units town watch surrounding it WITHIN 30 MINUTES!!!(those hoplites are using phalanxe formation)
I flank them on their side and their back do me no good,those armoured hoplites keep falling and keep stand up and fight!( there is a 10 command star general leading my town watch)time end!always got 10 to 20 leftovers,then i decide to use auxilia,finally it finish the job,just a little bit faster......
then facing Julii's legions,still same,town watch can't kill them in time,auxilia finish the job,of coz with high casualties too!

i do custom battle,1 general,4 militia,against 1 legion.results=1 militia rout with 20men left,another militia rout the legion(legion left 10 men) with only 30-40 men lost,the miliita hoplite can kill legion very fast too without flanking move(face to face) with just swordarm not phalanxe,but town watch just a little bit faster than campaign battle...

my conclusion here is it seem when they reach more than 10 armor,it is impossible to using spears to against them.....
it explain a lot why my parthians hillmen can't hurt those legions while militia hoplites can....and it explain a lot why barbarian light warband(short spear warband)can take many hastati and principles with them but not legion with lorica segmenta armor(12 armor)
Even those phalanxe pikemen that using swordarm in my old Seleucid campaign can beat legion,if they(phalanxe pikemen) can have higher morale then they can fight longer even without general....(legion got 10 morale while phalanxe pikemen have 4 only)

1 of my custom battle,gladiators vs gladiators,free at will,i use Scipii mirmillo(weapon=spear),i wait and let Julii samnite(weapon=sword) fight with Brutii velites(weapon=spear),samnites take out velites easily fight with my mirmillo,my mirmillo wins,but with high casualties

note:all my units oredi have silver equipments(level 2 weapons and level 2 armor)

[guineawolf]

this time i am using light auxilia(romans javelinmen) to against greeks cities,coz it have 6 javelins to against phalanxe formation,and sword that can effectively against infantry and fast moving that can do fast flanking move..and it just 290 denarii to train compare to auxilia 430 denarii,same upkeep 170 denarii....
i got 7 unit from city own temple city of Horus and city own large temple of Mars,it's attributes:
-unit from Horus- ***-unit from Mars-
melee attack -7 9
missile attack-9 11
charge bonus-2 2

armor *****-5 4
defence skill -3 5
shield *****-2 2

total defence-10 11

my army face 3 unit of armoured hoplites=484 soldiers,i take out all of them with 7 unit light auxilia=1127 soldiers,just 450 to 470 casualties......

it seems swordarms works...sweet!!!..


a movie=Battle for rome, Romans vs the Jews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xum38KinXQ4&NR=1



after a few battle,it prove that light auxilia are very useful with it's fast moving and swordsarm after shower of javelins to it's enemy....just make sure always get a general to take care of them......(even enemy archers can't resist them.....)

[guineawolf]

after watching first EPISODE of Ancient Rome from youtube,those infantry uniform look like principles,it seems that they are still using principles after Marius Reforms,it just better trained.
And i read from history that classic legion(legion with lorica segmenta armor) is introduced by Augustus,i think i will put principles into militia barrack,1 level lower than original principles producing barracks(city barracks) for early swordmen for romans.(since the principles having the same armor with auxilia)


link to that movies,it got 6 part:
Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4g5DnhjBjo

Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufv75Wn9ZHk

Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIb1G12AItQ

Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsXwEqqdhbM

Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDKlU8cmBy0

Ancient Rome The Rise And Fall Of An Empire part 6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGfyFnSv-GM

after reconsidering for the game balance here,i think i will use light auxilia to replace the principles........