What is "Europe" in EB's timeframe?

[Conqueror]

The Glory of Persepolis thread, before it turned from a farce into a total farce, got me thinking about how the concept of Europe should be viewed in different eras. It's a tough enough a question to ask what is and isn't a part of Europe in modern times. Not to mention tied to contemporary politics, so let's avoid that question here. Instead, I'm asking about Europe in EB's timeframe.

How do you define Europe? Based on geography? Culture? Language? Something else? Is it even possible to come up with a definition that is not arbitrary? I personally can't think of any good way to draw a line on map and say "this is where Europe ends in EB's timeframe".

I'd like to read of other people's views on the matter. And let's keep the discussion on topic and polite, please.

[Tiberius Nero]

The ancient borders of Europe are the same you know: to the east up to the Dnieper in the north and up to the Hellespont (Byzantium) in the south.

[I of the Storm]

Good question.

Well, geographically it's the same as before and after. The interesting point would be the cultural borders/zones of influence. Which inevitably - as you already pointed out - leads to the need of a definition of "Europe".
I can't give one, honestly. Whatever comes to my mind also applies to asiatic and north african regions and nationalities of that timeframe.
I mean, they all had some sort of writing, some sort of pantheon, rituals, cultic acts, beliefs, traditions, trade etc., that didn't differ much in principle, only in content.



After meditating this, I'd be cautious and stick with the geographical definition and borders.
E.g. there was too much hellenism going around in the world in the EB timeframe to make a distinction possible between Europe and Asia Minor.

[Tiberius Nero]

Europe is just a geographical boundary, it doesn't say anything about its inhabitants, ethnically or culturally, until very modern times with emerging ideas of "europeanism" vs whatever else.

[Watchman]

The geography draws obvious enough borders with seas for the most part, but it does get a little tricky north of the Black Sea. That steppe/forest zone between the Urals and the western terminus of the Great Steppe Belt was always a little fuzzy question in this regard. I'd regard it as a sort of transition zone.

[Conqueror]

The thing with geographical definitions is that they tend to be arbitrary. Why should the Dnieper mark the boundary rather than some other geographical feature(s)? If there is no reason to setting the border at a particular place, is there any point in trying to define "Europe" to begin with?

Another interesting thing is that if "european" simply refers to any inhabitant of an arbitrarily defined geographical area, then it must follow that for exmple greeks who settle on the Anatolian coast will cease to be europeans, while the huns will become europeans after they've migrated far enough west.

[I of the Storm]

It might in the end result in the ontological impossibility to acknowledge the existence of a thing called "Europe" beyond arbitrarily defined spaces...



Now I'm depressed. Philosophy always depresses me...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The thing with geographical definitions is that they tend to be arbitrary. Why should the Dnieper mark the boundary rather than some other geographical feature(s)? If there is no reason to setting the border at a particular place, is there any point in trying to define "Europe" to begin with?

Another interesting thing is that if "european" simply refers to any inhabitant of an arbitrarily defined geographical area, then it must follow that for exmple greeks who settle on the Anatolian coast will cease to be europeans, while the huns will become europeans after they've migrated far enough west.

Well to take your example, Hellanism was about 50% self definition and 50% being let into the club. The Ancient Greeks invented Europe and they simple defined it as everything on the other side of the Hellespont. Europe was an area while Hellenism was a state of being. Later Outremer was never considered part of Europe but it was still part of Chrisendom.