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Thread: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

  1. #1

    Default Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    check here .... https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...83#post1544083

    and you can see why I want to start outlining the units for this faction!
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Congratualtions, now it's possible to make units of any height. Do the other characters aim lower to attack the dwarves?
    4 Seasons (6 Empires battle for supremecy); 3.0 version
    Total War Eras (start at 970, 1080, 1200, 1300, 1400, or 1500); 2.4 version
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Last night was a momentous evening for modding ( well...as far as I am concerned! )

    I received in the mail a set of alpha tools from Knight Errant which when run, resulted in the application of a brand new set of bone start points straight into the standard animations. There swas a slight hitch, in that the location of ht eroot bone was not translated in proportion to the new position... but KnighErrant has found th emissing code, and I have a revised version to check. This, folks, means we now have the tools to take a CUSTOM SKELETON OF ANY PROPORTIONS and apply it to a STANDARD ANIMATION and move all the changes into it. NO NEED TO RE-WRITE ALL THE ANIMATIONS and it's just a matter of minutes work to make the whole thing work. The tools are not all that polished, but for an alpha release, they work well and efficiently.

    This will give us Dwarves that work AND look like Dwarves, rather than hobbits. Also....the system will allow us to do Orcs with longer arms, broad shoulders and slightly shorter legs.

    Downside...there is a limit to how many we can use, since it all adds up to systems overheads and an enlarged mod.

    So..Dwarves will only get a limited number of skeletons to use. They will need 2h axemen, crossbowmen, mace ( will work for axes, hammers etc where a shield is used ) and I will also need to check how crew animations are done. Might need a Dwarf crew set too.

    Orcs will get archers and swords or mace variants. Plus crew if needed.

    Everything else will have to be done by scaling
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Heh. Not sure if I understand what's been found, but either way, if it helps the mod, great!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    In short ( excuse the pun ) we can make correctly proportioned Dwarves.

    RTW modding was always limited by the skeletons. We could scale them up or down, but that was all we could do. Dwarves were done ... but they were scaled down people, which meant ALL the poportions were reduced. They looked like children... while fantasy Dwarves should be as broad sholdered as a human, and just shorter of leg. We couldn't do what we needed to make them correct.

    Also....orces need slightly longer arms than a human, broad shoulders, and slightly shorter legs. Again....just using a normal human skeleton did not look good....I know...I tried!

    But now, thanks to the work Grumpy Old Man and KnightErrant have put in to fully understand the MESH format and the animations that power them, and thanks to Caliban arranging to get a full set of stock animations released in an uncompressed and accessable form, we have the power to change the skeleton ANY WAY WE WANT. Better still....we can then force the stock animation routines to work on the new skeletons without having to re-write every single one of them! A stock skeleton uses about 50 or 60 animations. Each one would have to have been edited by hand. That would take weeks. With the alpha toolset KE sent me, I did the job in 5 minutes.

    So...in summary .... I know have the tools and knowledge to stretch, tweak, scale and then animate any shape we want as long as it's broadly human, and not have to re-do ANY animations. Having done a lot of animation work for RTW mods...I know just how much work this has saved me, and how major a step this is towards making a really high quality fantasy mod. Dwarves have nver ben done properly in a TW game.... they were just tiny children made by scaling down .... no longer.

    I'm happy about this...really happy!
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    This is only useful for re-positioned skeletons, not ones with different bones right?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Ah! That's more understadable! That sounds awesome! You did mention that you need to limit skeletons though, what exactly do you mean by that?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Casuir ...at the moment, we are just limited to moving bones about. This is fine for what we want to do for now. GOM is trying to build a scratch skeleton and implement animations for it. If that works..then the sky is the limit !
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwian
    In short ( excuse the pun ) we can make correctly proportioned Dwarves.

    RTW modding was always limited by the skeletons. We could scale them up or down, but that was all we could do. Dwarves were done ... but they were scaled down people, which meant ALL the poportions were reduced. They looked like children... while fantasy Dwarves should be as broad sholdered as a human, and just shorter of leg. We couldn't do what we needed to make them correct.

    Also....orces need slightly longer arms than a human, broad shoulders, and slightly shorter legs. Again....just using a normal human skeleton did not look good....I know...I tried!
    Well I think the ones you showed here in the RTW modding forums did look good, but this new ability is simply fantastic! More so, it assures me that there will be orcs, that they won´t get scrapped because of the difficult of making them. Great news indeed

  10. #10

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    On the crew animations bwian they were one of the few that showed changes made to the skeletons with a hex editor when we tried it. I'm pretty sure the changes were visible right through the siege engines animations and only reverted when idle. Piccy:


    Might be worth testing further, could cut down a bit more on anim overheads.
    Look to be wardog anims in there as well, could be used for a few things

  11. #11

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Right ... hte outline Unit List bit!

    Warriors - goes without saying!

    Miners

    Troll Slayers

    Hammerers

    Crossbowmen

    Thunderers

    Long Beards


    Dwarf crew will also be required. They will be made as simplified variations on the warriors with no shields and simple axes.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  12. #12
    Bringer of the End Times Member alexader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Bwian you rock once more,i think you will be writen in history.good work again and don't forget keep walking............
    "VAE VICTUS"

  13. #13

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    You're a few:
    Ironbreakers
    Rangers
    Cannon
    Organ Gun
    Flame cannon
    Bolt thrower
    Grudge thrower
    Couple of other units in the Storm of Chaos book:
    Brotherhood of Grimnir
    Goblin Hewer
    Should be restricted to Kazak Kadrin if included

  14. #14
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Casuir
    You're a few:
    Ironbreakers
    Rangers
    Cannon
    Organ Gun
    Flame cannon
    Bolt thrower
    Grudge thrower
    Couple of other units in the Storm of Chaos book:
    Brotherhood of Grimnir
    Goblin Hewer
    Should be restricted to Kazak Kadrin if included
    I'm doing the army texts now. Are these to be included in the army list or are only Bwians?
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  15. #15

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Thats the point of these threads .... to discuss what units we need, what units are of benefit, and what units will best flesh out a faction.

    Obviousely, we can't have every single possible unit for every faction...that would just be taking serious liberties with the number of units we can have in game. If we have 20 Dwraf units, then we couldn't make do with 5 chaos units ... we would need a similar number and complexity of variations if the factions were to be equally playable and fun.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    If I was assaulting a Dwarf Army, what I would like to be up against:

    Warriors – A necessary basic Unit

    Slayers-Unique unit that many dwarf players will look forward to using

    Thunderers- Dwarfs with guns are a must

    Ironbreakers- Hard core defensive unit, the spine of any Dwarf army.

    Others by priority:

    Crossbowmen- Dwarfs will be stunted speed wise, and will need as much long range firepower as possible.

    Hammerers- Good offensive Unit

    Longbeards: I’m not sure what purpose they serve, are they highly experienced?

    Rangers/miners are nice extras, but I don’t see them as being pivotal to a Dwarf army.

    Dwarfs also deserve at least three to four war machines minimum:

    Cannon
    Organ Gun
    Bolt thrower

    Maybe the Grudge Thrower, if the flame cannon is too much effort to implement.

  17. #17
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwian
    Thats the point of these threads .... to discuss what units we need, what units are of benefit, and what units will best flesh out a faction.

    Obviousely, we can't have every single possible unit for every faction...that would just be taking serious liberties with the number of units we can have in game. If we have 20 Dwraf units, then we couldn't make do with 5 chaos units ... we would need a similar number and complexity of variations if the factions were to be equally playable and fun.
    Ok, the magic, (completly arbitrary) number in the past hs been 10 so it's a good number to aim for. We can always add units later if we need them.

    A hillarious feature I think we should include is the "old grumbling" Long beard rule. Dwarfs are so incredibly afraid of losing face in front of their elders that they get a moral boost whenever these old coots are around. Because if they'd show any fear these old men will after the battle make them eat it a million times over.

    infantry

    First the ones we can't live without
    Dwarf Warriors
    Dwarf Miners
    Slayers, (troll/dragon/daemon)
    Long Beards, (veteran warriors)

    These three can IMHO be dropped. Ironbreakers make the most sense to keep. Hammerers would be impressive to have as a unit though.

    Hammerers, (these are the kings bodyguard unit, we can lose them)
    Ironbreakers, (this is just elite warriors)
    Rangers, (these are special over-ground dwarves. I think we could and should lose them.)

    ranged

    Quarrellers, (Crossbowmen)
    Thunderers, (hand gunners)

    artillery

    Cannon, (cannon)
    Organ Gun, (ribault)
    Flame cannon, (can we do these?)
    Bolt thrower, (ballista)
    Grudge thrower, (catapult)
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  18. #18
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    I just thought I'd point out that I mean that we should have one unit for all different Slayers. They all look the same, it's their favorite victim that differs.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  19. #19

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    I would put Ironbreakers ahead of Miners, mainly out of personal preference for their cool armour. They would look MEAN on the battlefield with glittering metal armour and faceplates. Miners still make a lot of sense for a dwarf side, especialy as there will be probably be actual mine facilities they can be recruited from. The problem is that their special mining ability can't be translated into the game, while the Ironbreakers toughness fits perfectly, and they are an elite unit players can build towards.

    Longbeards sound like they would offer high morale, and at the least would only need a facial texture change. Hammerers and Rangers do seem like the obvious ones to cut.

  20. #20
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Longbeards sound like they would offer high morale, and at the least would only need a facial texture change.
    You're forgetting the beard. They need to have their whole body covered by the beard. That's not just the face
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  21. #21
    Warhammer: Total War Team Member Krazysigmarite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Out of curiosity, what is the total allowed ## of units in the game? I've read somewhere that it's 500, and that means that even if we used up all 31 faction slots, it'd still allow for 16 unique units per faction.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    The game starts with 703 units and more can be added, so we don't need to worry about unit numbers yet.
    4 Seasons (6 Empires battle for supremecy); 3.0 version
    Total War Eras (start at 970, 1080, 1200, 1300, 1400, or 1500); 2.4 version
    Eras Total Conquest (start at 1230, 1346, 1547); 1.2 version

  23. #23

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Thats models, it includes mounts, upgrades and generals. The 500 limit reffers to the edu, but theres no way we can realisticly expect to make that many units. Better to do as bwian says and concentrate on a core selection for each faction, which can be expanded on later.

  24. #24
    Member Member Jubee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    hmm... i just wonder what would you do to dwarves because they don't have ANY cavarly? Do you drop stables from tech tree or do you make an special infantry building where would be slayers or something?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    There will be no cavalry units buildable by Dwarves, so there is little point in building one. The actual buildings can be limited by faction, so it is also fairly simple to comment out the stable tree for Dwarves.

    If, however, they took over a settlement with a stable built in it, they would simply have a building that was of no benefit to them. Should be fairly straightforward.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  26. #26
    Member Member Jubee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    And because of the lack of cavarly dwarfs should have more infantry than the other races. Just for balance. In my opinion dwarf military tech tree could go like this.

    Tier 1:
    Miners

    Tier 2:
    Miners
    Warriors

    Tier 3:
    Miners
    Warriors with +1exp
    longbeards (Like warriors but good morale and +1-2 to defence skill, maybe a little better attack)

    Tier 4:
    Miners
    Warrior with +1exp
    Longbeards with +1exp
    Ironbreakers

    etc.

    Hammerers could be the generals bodyguard because they actually is it.
    Slayers? I don't get a place for them. Could they be in tech tree after or before warriors or should they have their own tech tree? That would replace the cavarly tech tree.

    So what do you think?

  27. #27
    Member Member Jubee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    And for Hammerers and Ironbreackers dwarf unit you could give "armour piercing" skill. Good Stamina and Good Morale would fit well too.

    By the way could you make pistoliers for empire? Because they are so cool and tactical unit so would like to see it in the mod.

    For slayers you could lock morale so they won't rout and they could charge without orders?

    War machines could go almost same way as in real M2TW. I mean order would be Bolt thrower, Grudge thrower, Cannon and organ gun. I don't know about flame cannon...

  28. #28
    Warhammer: Total War Team Member Krazysigmarite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    I'm currently working on a Pistolier unit :)

    They will use the HRE's Reiters animations. But that's a bit off topic. We need an Empire thread

    Just remember that as far as the units go, nothing has to be based off of any medieval tech tree. We are building things from the ground up, and with the flexibility of the engine, many things are possible. If the 'Charge Without Orders' trait is still in the game, that's perfect. It's easy to make a unit never break.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Unit can be made to be impetuous, which means they may charge without orders.
    4 Seasons (6 Empires battle for supremecy); 3.0 version
    Total War Eras (start at 970, 1080, 1200, 1300, 1400, or 1500); 2.4 version
    Eras Total Conquest (start at 1230, 1346, 1547); 1.2 version

  30. #30

    Default Re: Faction thread 4: Dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Jubee
    hmm... i just wonder what would you do to dwarves because they don't have ANY cavarly? Do you drop stables from tech tree or do you make an special infantry building where would be slayers or something?
    For the slayers' building that would have to be a shrine of Grimnir eh (potentialy giving more experience to slayers units while improving: Shrine > Temple > Large Temple > Awesome Temple > Pantheon like in RTW)? Slayers created in Karak Kadrin could get additionnal xp or some other bonus (regional based special unit/bonus like in MTW).

    How about special traits, ancillaries, titles for dwarf chars triggered by losses (city, battle...) to turn them into slayers, by the meaning of specific retinue, being unbreakable.... I know it's still far away, just throwing ideas...

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