Dismounted Knights

[vapd]

You may here a lot from me on MTW as this area of Eurpoean history has been a small hobby of mine for years. Used to do a lot of reading on it. I just say this because I'm posting a lot and none of you know me...

During our MTW period the European armys would often use dismounted kinghts, mostly on the defensive of course!!! The examples I give are a string of battles between the French and English (of course) (actually, any French people out there I do love you all really, great country) with Agincourt as the most famous. The point is, if you put a dismounted knight behind a row of stakes and pits hes a lot better off against a cavalry charge than on his horse. Its also worth considering that (I dont know of any historical examples of this bit) that I believe the great sword was developed to cut thru pike formations, which is the best troop to use to get thru archers protected by stakes. Anyway it would be nice to see MTW allow your knights to dismount, now to do this on the battle field is not practicle, whos gonna look after the horses??, but to make a decision b4 the battle begins about who dismounts and who dosnt... catch my drift?

[LordTed]

Thats a good idea as cav would be quite useless against spears and chucking the horses for heavy dismounted knights would be good.

[Mojo Jojo]

I think this ws a topic also somewhere else, cant find it though, just letting you know, btw vapd, do you have icq?

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

it was discussed here:
www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML

but it went into a "Joke" direction and fizzled out, it's not active anymore. This is why i am keeping this thread open.



[This message has been edited by Sir Kuma of The Org (edited 12-28-2001).]

[Mojo Jojo]

oh yeah, and now i'm just repeating other people's words, but it's a good idea. One guy said that it would be neat that during the battle you could have the option for knights to dismount, but only once, and they couldn't remount for the rest of the battle, on account of it would be hard to get on a horse in full armour while carrying a weapon by yourself.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

In fact, it would be hard to get off the horse in the first place...

The idea is, again, interesting. Somehow I get the feeling these may be represented by two separate units. But then, I'm a pessimist.

[Mojo Jojo]

wait, do you mean that there may be a unit called dismounted knights, and they are always dismounted, and then normal knights, or something else? Please forgive my incompetent brain (I am a monkey though )

[Nelson]

Splendid idea. I suggested this myself in an earlier thread "A useful...option". The point would be to have unit(s) that could be mounted OR dismounted with the decision made during pre-battle deployment. I believe it would be easy to do.

[Hirosito]

the thing with 100 different units is that u are likely to get a unit which is very similar to a knight but just doesn't have a horse

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Exactly what I meant, Hirosito-san. Thank you, although it isn't a happy thing...

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-31-2001).]

[NARF]

well Mounted knights are heavier, and Id think they could only be dismounted in dire need. When the unit is almost depleted perhaps. Or maybe only because the battlefield is small and they dont need to waste their horses energy, keep in mind I am only a child.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I think the problem with dismounting/remounting in battle would be if dismounted here do the horses go? do they follow along like dogs andperhaps get slaughtered or do they just disappear and then reappear when needed. So i think that idea is not possible.

The possibility of dismounting then not being able to remount is good. So it makes u thnk whether it is a good choice to dismount or not. cavalry dont make good defenders, but attackers they are the best (against certain defenders). I like this idea.

The possibility of having to choose whether the knights fight dismounted/mounted before thebattle is also good. So in MP you will have to decide going on what you think the other player(s) will choose.

Yet all plausble otions. Hope this helps.

[evilc]

dont know about that long ago, but in some wars when cavalry dismounted, they left behind a man for every 10 horses to hold them.

[Mojo Jojo]

yeah, the mongols often took around 10 ponies for each man, that's why they could cover greatter distances then any other army, they had a constant supply of fresh horses.

[dagdriver]

Actually from what I've read about battles in this period, knights fought dismounted just about as often as they fought mounted - especially early in the period.
One of the reasons being, that horses where expensive.

Of course this didn't happen late in the period, when knights were dressed in full plate - that would have been impossible to walk around in....

In many battles about 1/3 of the total mounted forces where held back as a reserve to be inserted either where the there was danger of breaking, or for chasing the routed enemies.

[This message has been edited by dagdriver (edited 01-01-2002).]

[evilc]

well then have an option to train knights, then buy horses for them if you want, and have an option to enter battle with or without them.

[Nelson]

Full plate was not impossible to walk or fight in while dismounted. It was done A LOT!

I realize that there will be men at arms units that are not mounted that are very much like the knights who are mounted. What I'm looking for is the tactical flexibility of deciding that a given mounted unit could be deployed on foot. One unit, two uses (heavy cav or heavy infantry). In one battle they could dismount and in another remain mounted. This was common practice in the 14th and 15th centuries. Not every cav unit should be able to do this but the typical French or English knight could and did fight both ways.

The horse holding would be done by the grooms and squires with no depletion of combat strength so this wouldn't need to be modelled at all.

[DantepX]

How 'bout if the horse is killed in a battle, your rider can still fight on the ground, that would be neat. Probably lots of work to implement though.

[vapd]

Good to see some ideas going around. I think that a pre battle decision on your Knights being dismounted or mounted is the best option. Or your gonna end up with some sort of 'baggage section' you have to defend. Which would be great but the battle field would have to be at least 4 times longer and wider... So it aint gonna happen.

[Erado San]

I believe that the full plate armoured knight should probably not appear until the later stages of the MTW campaign.

Furthermore, I can only see the pre-battle decision to be of interest in campaign games of course. Online I would simply buy a mounted or foot unit. In campaign games you could decide pre-battle to dismount when you know that your opponent has a lot of spears.

Dismounting during a battle... Should be risky. The unit should be disorganised during the dismounting. Yet, when moving along the flanks you are suddenly facing a unit of spears it would make sense. I think they should lose the horses then though, I can't see a bunch of retainers running along after them and holding the reigns for them.

[Kraellin]

because of the way that CA has done the game, with both strategic and tactical modes, i dont see a problem with dismounting during battle. first off, a 'knight' type unit is going to prolly be s small unit. if it's a single unit, like the kensai, then it's really simple, just change the sprites and the horse is picked up after the battle. surely knights got knocked off their horses in battle and lived to continue fighting. and if we're talking about those full plate types, then just as surely he isnt going to get back on his horse during battle, so you only need to make this a one way street in tactical mode. you really dont even have to have it as a pre-deployment option. you could do it during the battle, either because he was knocked off his horse or because he chose to dismount.

if you're saying that a knight unit is more than one man, the same thing could still apply. if you choose to dismount then ALL of the knights of that unit dismount together. it might be a little more tricky for being knocked off your horse in a 12 man knight unit if only one guy gets knocked off, but i think it could still be done.

after tactical battle mode is done and you return to the strat mode, why, all your knights simply come up as mounted again. you dont see the retainers and squires helping the knight back on his horse and so forth. that's just a given. during battle the horse can just stand there like the dumb animal it is or run off or simply disappear as being superfluous in battle mode once the knight is no longer mounted. doesnt matter a twit as far as game play.

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Cheetah]

it is a good idea it gives flexibility to the unit.

it should be a pre-battle decesion. in Agincourt knights went into the battle without horses, even the king himself!!

in the heat of the battle its not realistic.
armour is too heavy (talkin about plate armour)

and that is the problem with the fallen knights, they could not stand up. and who would help them? the other mounted knights surely not. probably the serves, but then you have to fall down behind your lines!

a fallen knight is as good as dead. in Agincourt archers armed with long knives butchered the fallen frnech knights.

this need not hold for the norman type knights in lighter chain armour. I guess they were able to mount at will. but I think it is difficult to implement. what about the dead horses? can you get a mixed inf/cav unit?

[Red Peasant]

The stakes, dismounted knights, archers, etc., of the English for example, were indeed good tactics against the French. BUT, they are 'static' tactics, relying on an over-confident or reckless or tactically obtuse enemy in order to work. The French were too confident, too arrogant and their code of honour too strong to refrain from a disorganised frontal assault against what they considered inferior opposition. Much as the English were at Bannockburn.

I wonder if these psychological factors will be reflected in the game.....knights losing honour for not attacking 'inferior' forces by a frontal mounted assault?

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"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)

[Nelson]

We should see a fair amount of knightly impetuousity.

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Originally posted by Nelson:
We should see a fair amount of knightly impetuousity.

____________________________________________

Yes it has been announced that knights will have some difficulty restraining themselves once the enemy in sight.



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Yes the camel sprites do look good

[The_battlefield_geisha]

well, you could decide in battle setup if you wanted your knights to dismount or stay mounted.

Of course a really nice feature would be mid-battle DISmounting for some specific tactical reason. The horses could then auto-route off the map. It might even look pretty cool.

[vapd]

some interesting replys. Yes Agincourt was won because of French stupidity/arragance but so was Crecy, a fair few years earlier mind.

Anyway I dont think there are any examples of Knights dismounting DURING battle as war hourses werer sooooo expensive and just couldnt be risked to run off. And then you couldnt have retainers with your mounted knights as 1: theyd get slaughtered & 2: if you were moving at a charge they couldnt keep up.

Also I will sugest that the fact that the medieval plate armoured knight couldnt get up if he fell off his hourse is a myth. Oh yes a myth. What would be the point in it I ask you?? Falling off a horse is quite likely really and if you couldnt get up again your dead. No. Plate wasnt that heavy. It was very cleverly designed, think of corrogated iron..... and carefully angled tank armour combined and you get the picture.

With this in mind I think that dismounting b4 battle is the only option and it should be included.

[Leet Eriksson]

i heard somewhere in a preview of the game in a british mag that the game will probably have dismounted knights just a rumor as the writer said"lets see now if the knights can be seperated from their horses"dunno thats what i read in a british PC mag called strategy player or something.

[Whitey]

there may just be two different units - mounted knights and dis-mounted knights, but that would grate too much for me - I think an option in the battle setup would be acceptable...for me at least.

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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"

[KensaiAkechi]

Heres an idea to make cavalry a little more effectve:

lets say you charge a group of cav into an enemy unit, after the initial charge and the cav and standing there on horses battling the remaining soldiers, the could get knocked off their horse and get up and keep fighting instead of dieing along with their horse. But of course they would suffer attack, morale, and defense bonuses. But only have a certain percentage get knocked off their horse depending on armor, defense, and hounor.

sorry if thats a little unclear i suck at explaining things.