The lemur is strongly anti-divorce, in case you're wondering, which you probably weren't. Ran across a good article today, which I leave to the Backroomers to debunk.
Divorce is the real threat to stable families, as opposed to gay marriage, landsharks, liberal values, or water fluoridation. I know there are abusive relationships, and some marriages do need to be dissolved, but I find it hard to believe that 1/2 of all American marriages are in such dire straits. Rather, I suspect that many marriages are ended out of ignorance, laziness, weakness and/or selfishness.
All of the politicians talk about "families" and "family values." Many of those same politicos are on their second, third or fourth marriage. None of them want to talk seriously about lowering the divorce rate; they'd much rather wave various red herrings.
The Top Ten Myths of Divorce Discussion of the most common misinformation about divorce
David Popenoe
1. Because people learn from their bad experiences, second marriages tend to be more successful than first marriages.
Although many people who divorce have successful subsequent marriages, the divorce rate of remarriages is in fact higher than that of first marriages.
2. Living together before marriage is a good way to reduce the chances of eventually divorcing.
Many studies have found that those who live together before marriage have a considerably higher chance of eventually divorcing. The reasons for this are not well understood. In part, the type of people who are willing to cohabit may also be those who are more willing to divorce. There is some evidence that the act of cohabitation itself generates attitudes in people that are more conducive to divorce, for example the attitude that relationships are temporary and easily can be ended.
3. Divorce may cause problems for many of the children who are affected by it, but by and large these problems are not long lasting and the children recover relatively quickly.
Divorce increases the risk of interpersonal problems in children. There is evidence, both from small qualitative studies and from large-scale, long-term empirical studies, that many of these problems are long lasting. In fact, they may even become worse in adulthood.
4. Having a child together will help a couple to improve their marital satisfaction and prevent a divorce.
Many studies have shown that the most stressful time in a marriage is after the first child is born. Couples who have a child together have a slightly decreased risk of divorce compared to couples without children, but the decreased risk is far less than it used to be when parents with marital problems were more likely to stay together “for the sake of the children.”
5. Following divorce, the woman’s standard of living plummets by seventy three percent while that of the man’s improves by forty two percent.
This dramatic inequity, one of the most widely publicized statistics from the social sciences, was later found to be based on a faulty calculation. A reanalysis of the data determined that the woman’s loss was twenty seven percent while the man’s gain was ten percent. Irrespective of the magnitude of the differences, the gender gap is real and seems not to have narrowed much in recent decades.
6. When parents don’t get along, children are better off if their parents divorce than if they stay together.
A recent large-scale, long-term study suggests otherwise. While it found that parents’ marital unhappiness and discord have a broad negative impact on virtually every dimension of their children’s well-being, so does the fact of going through a divorce. In examining the negative impacts on children more closely, the study discovered that it was only the children in very high conflict homes who benefited from the conflict removal that divorce may bring. In lower-conflict marriages that end in divorce—and the study found that perhaps as many as two thirds of the divorces were of this type—the situation of the children was made much worse following a divorce. Based on the findings of this study, therefore, except in the minority of high-conflict marriages it is better for the children if their parents stay together and work out their problems than if they divorce.
7. Because they are more cautious in entering marital relationships and also have a strong determination to avoid the possibility of divorce, children who grow up in a home broken by divorce tend to have as much success in their own marriages as those from intact homes.
Marriages of the children of divorce actually have a much higher rate of divorce than the marriages of children from intact families. A major reason for this, according to a recent study, is that children learn about marital commitment or permanence by observing their parents. In the children of divorce, the sense of commitment to a lifelong marriage has been undermined.
8. Following divorce, the children involved are better off in stepfamilies than in single-parent families.
The evidence suggests that stepfamilies are no improvement over single-parent families, even though typically income levels are higher and there is a father figure in the home. Stepfamilies tend to have their own set of problems, including interpersonal conflicts with new parent figures and a very high risk of family breakup.
9. Being very unhappy at certain points in a marriage is a good sign that the marriage will eventually end in divorce.
All marriages have their ups and downs. Recent research using a large national sample found that eighty six percent of people who were unhappily married in the late 1980s, and stayed with the marriage, indicated when interviewed five years later that they were happier. Indeed, three fifths of the formerly unhappily married couples rated their marriages as either “very happy” or “quite happy.”
10. It is usually men who initiate divorce proceedings
Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women. One recent study found that many of the reasons for this have to do with the nature of our divorce laws. For example, in most states women have a good chance of receiving custody of their children. Because women more strongly want to keep their children with them, in states where there is a presumption of shared custody with the husband the percentage of women who initiate divorces is much lower.10 Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.
I don't think divorce can be avoided in a sex-oriented society. Modern culture emphasizes sex over a "household alliance", and it's then not surprising with divorce. Monkeys also tend to switch partners every now and then, so perhaps we're hard-wired to act that way unless we're given an upbringing that makes us change opinion. The problem with divorce is however the children, who often get alienated, become bullied or bullies, and may get problems with their education. If we wish to have sex and relations like cavemen, we probably need to have herds collectively raising children like cavemen, so the partner switches of parents don't drastically change the living situation of the children (this however requires switching only between the partners within some designated small enough herd, which may not be enough for some). I don't see any solution to the problems except either sticking to traditional culture family values completely, or reintroducing herds completely. The compromise between the two doesn't work very well IMO.
Under construction...
"In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore
I blame Hollywood, in all seriousness I do. TV and movies give us this picture of love and marriage. Two unhappy people, they meet, stare into each others eyes, fall in love, complete each other, and live happily ever after. When people's relationships don't play like Sleepless in Seattle people give up on them. How to change it I don't know.
Sometimes I slumber on a bed of roses
Sometimes I crash in the weeds
One day a bowl full of cherries
One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
-Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers, Lemons
I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.
What's the point?
Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.
IMO marriage has been marginalized by today's shack up culture and people don't see it as a valued commitment that requires attention and integrity to the principle by both people. Its become more of a value as a means to an end, in its end, by many. Surprisingly the divorce rate has gone down recently. I remember hearing the study, but not what was or what was not factored into it, but at first glance I would say that many of those people who don't value marriage are simply not getting married, deciding to go with the co-existence theory subject only to palimony. I could of course be incredibly wrong, but its my shot in the dark at an explanation for divorces decline.
"There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."
"The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."
Meh. If two people can no longer tolerate each others' faces in the morning, better that they go their separate ways than keep poisoning each others' lives. Marriage or no.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
My opinion is, if you're going to get married, at least think things through before doing it. Don't rush into it and make sure you know what you're doing.
Last edited by DemonArchangel; 05-16-2007 at 23:23.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.
My opinion is, if you're going to get married, at least think things through before doing it. Don't rush into it and make sure you know what you're doing.
Time seems to slip quickly. People like to rush things. They get trapped in momentum. Hard to escape once one of you gets caught.
Requesting suggestions for new sig.
-><- GOGOGO GOGOGO WINLAND WINLAND ALL HAIL TECHNOVIKING!SCHUMACHER!
Plus being in love is rightly infamous for reducing your common sense and judgement to the level of a concussed kitten.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
Plus being in love is rightly infamous for reducing your common sense and judgement to the level of a concussed kitten.
Too much credit...
"There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."
"The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."
Concussed kittens might take offense at that slur, true.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
Lucky for you that this isn't radio and your last name isn't Imus.....or is it...
"There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."
"The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."
Most certainly not. Mind you, foreigners tend to have major issues pronouncing it although it's quite simple.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
The lemur is strongly anti-divorce, in case you're wondering, which you probably weren't. Ran across a good article today, which I leave to the Backroomers to debunk.
Divorce is the real threat to stable families, as opposed to gay marriage, landsharks, liberal values, or water fluoridation.
This is rubbish. The danger caused by landsharks cannot be so easily dismissed.
After giving landsharks their proper due: how does the Lemur rank divorce vs out of wedlock births (where there was no marriage from the get go) and the social impact?
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides
I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.
What's the point?
some people may not want to have sex until marriage, you pass down your bloodline (if you have a son), etc. i like the idea of waking up every day to the hottest woman ever.
i'm fanatically against divorce. when you marry a woman you are both one, to divorce is to seperate the two which is what God never intended. divorcing with kids, and then marry another woman creates huge problems.. etc. my religion kicks in.
After twenty-one years of marriage to my first (and only) wife, and believe me that we have had our share of woes, I still can't think of living without her. Ever watch a good team of horses pulling a load? Sometimes one pulls more than the other, sometimes both pull together. Marriage is always best when both are pulling thier end of the load. (Men especially take note) I have seen many a good mariage go south because the husband gives up. It is hard work and takes guts and staying power. The best answer to the question of wether or not to divorce is "Love her more." Love is an action verb men. Let your actions speak as loudly as your words.
I believe that our over-reliance on materializm is a great factor in today's divorce rate. Keepin' up with the Jonses and trying to get instant gratification make poor bedfellows with marriage. If people would concentrate more on living each day as it comes, and giving to each other instead of taking so much, than divorce would be only for what it was meant for- a means of getting out of a marriage to an adulterous partner or an abusive one.
Rotorgun
...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
Onasander
Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.
After giving landsharks their proper due: how does the Lemur rank divorce vs out of wedlock births (where there was no marriage from the get go) and the social impact?
I don't mean to be overly dismissive of landsharks—they are dangerous and ornery beasts—but I believe they pose more of a threat to life and limb than to marriage in particular.
Out of wedlock births, much like divorce, depend heavily on context, but on the whole I don't think they're net positive.
Examples:
A woman leaves a physically abusive man and files for divorce. This is justified.
A man leaves his wife 'cause the spark is gone, and he misses the newness of love. This is morally bankrupt and indefensible.
A woman has a baby who will never know its father. To boot, she has trouble making ends meet, and has no real support system with her family. This is very bad news for the kid.
A woman has a baby with the man she loves and lives with, but they choose not to marry. They have enough money and fortitude to raise the kid, and they have a good relationship with their extended family. This is very good news for the kid, and I have no real argument if someone wants to go this route. (Although I think a formal marriage bond is a good idea.)
It's all terribly context-dependent. Anything sane that promotes stable, healthy family units is net positive. Anything that encourages men and women to abandon their responsibilities/mates/families is a net negative. Single parenting is not an activity I would wish on my worst enemy.
Does this even begin to answer your question, or am I off rambling down a country lane talking gibberish?
Originally Posted by rotorgun
The best answer to the question of wether or not to divorce is "Love her more." Love is an action verb men. Let your actions speak as loudly as your words.
Few, for a moment I thought lemur was going to announce he was getting a divorce, glad you're not.
Originally Posted by Lemur's study
Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.[/ex]
I'm sorry, if you're going to make claims like that in a study that appears to want to look at least a bit scientifc you'd better have data to back it up.
Originally Posted by rotorgun
I believe that our over-reliance on materializm is a great factor in today's divorce rate. Keepin' up with the Jonses and trying to get instant gratification make poor bedfellows with marriage.
This is probably the main reason for divorce. Society teaches us to never be content, to always strive for something better. Which tends to be a decent attitude when for a career. But if you keep looking for a better (wo)man, even subconsciously, that's not going to benefit your marriage.
Originally Posted by God's Grace
i like the idea of waking up every day to the hottest woman ever.
What makes you think you're worthy of the hottest woman ever ?
Most people have to settle, I don't mean that in a negative way, that's just the way it is, finding a partner that is 100% perfect is impossible. But you learn to live with the good sides and the bad, which is imo where love really grows. You love the little things, the little imperfections, I don't think it's possible to love someone who is perfect.
So when you finally deside to 'settle', make sure you don't keep looking for 'the hottest woman ever'.
@Lemur : What do you propose to do about the divorce rate ? Make it harder to divorce ? Outlaw it ? Because I can't see any freedom loving measures that can work...
Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II
Men, Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.
If your spouse decides she's bored with you or thinks you've done something stupid your whole life goes in flames.She gets the kids and 1/2 of your propriety and your lawyers leach on you as much as they can so you end up bankrupt and lonely no matter if you're guilty or not. Because women no matter what, always manage to look good in front of a judge and "persuade" him or her you're a bum or abuser.
So, the moral is never choose a partner that is not your equal, in love or buisness.Cause she would take you down.
" If you don't want me, I want you! Alexandru Lapusneanul"
"They are a stupid mob, but neverless they are a mob! Alexandru Lapusneanul"
Men, Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.
Really? I recall the King of England declaring himself the highest authority of the local (then-catholic) church because he wanted a divorce. The new Church of England promptly granted the King his wish so he could marry a hotter woman.
If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.
I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.
What's the point?
Says the guy who's going to pull in 100K+ a year when he graduates and doesn't want to have to share it with da broads except one expensive dinner and hotel suite at a time. (God, how I envy you.)
You can fiddle about with the legal aspects (I have some sympathy with ending no fault divorce provided divorce does not then become even more of a legal gravy train than it it) but this is primarily a cultural issue. Married or no, any long term relationship is going to be work. I hope its good, enjoyable work, like, don't know, building your own house or something, but just like building a house sometimes you are going to be choosing the curtains and sometimes you are going to be shovelling cement.
We don't exactly have a knuckle down and take it culture any more, do we? We have a culture were "I" am always right, where "I" have the right to be fulfilled, happy, loved, valued, and if I am not, by god, that is the world's fault and not mine, and its the world that had better change because I am just A OK.
The trouble is to paraphrase a bad sales team peptalk, there is no "I" in marriage. (Well, OK, there is, right there between the "r" and the "a", but you know what I mean). I seem to see a lot of people who are barely socialised these days. What they need/think/want comes first. The only reason for the validity of their desires that they need is that they are indeed their desires. (I imagine it must be rather like being an animal, not a human at all.)
I'm not sure these people can even understand the concept of what a marriage is, let alone make it work.
@ BKS, you probably have a point, unless you want kids. BTW there are basically no tax breaks for being married, labour abolished them.
"The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag
Well, King Henry's divorce was just a pretext for the emerging Anglican Church. He was forced to divorce by the more radical priesthood.And heads did fall later on, including the hotter spouse you're talking about.
" If you don't want me, I want you! Alexandru Lapusneanul"
"They are a stupid mob, but neverless they are a mob! Alexandru Lapusneanul"
(I have some sympathy with ending no fault divorce provided divorce does not then become even more of a legal gravy train than it it)
Wouldn't getting rid of no-fault divorce just result in people perjuring themselves in order to show fault? If people want to get divorced, it seems to me they're going to, so you might as well try to preserve the integrity of the legal system.
Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.
Wouldn't getting rid of no-fault divorce just result in people perjuring themselves in order to show fault?
I think that was actually a main reason to introduce no-fault divorce here in Germany - to avoid all the mud-slinging (that was really great for the children) around determining who's fault the failure was.
Apart from that blaming the failure on just one of the two partners often does not really make that much sense.
Fair comments, but "because I want to" just doesn't seem a good enough reason for a divorce to me.
Possibly the same objective could be served by a mandatory two year period between filing for divorce and having it granted (waivable in the case of domestic violence)
Or, maybe we should abolish civil marriage altogether. Why is the civil law interested in that, optional, relationship? Two adults announce they are having sex with each other and will try not to have it with anyone else- well, great, but what has this got to do with the legal system?
Maybe we should instead have a mandatory parenthood relationship, that happens to you once you have a child with someone whether you sign up for it or not, and from which there is no get out (obviously this would not be exclusive, you could have more than one).
Marriage would still exist, of course, but it would be a matter for the churches, the humanists, and anyone who wanted to have a party and announce "we are married".
Let no one tell you the Assassin is incapable of thinking laterally.
"The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag
To be fair, divorce did give us Haitian Divorce, an excellent song.
Nice to see a steely dan reference from the album "the royal scam" (appropriate for a thread on divorce).
Marriage is a major life committment and shouldnt be done soely on an emotional basis. I've been married going on 9 years, and its the best and worst thing I have ever done. This topic is very subjective based on circumstance, good marriages can go bad, and bad ones get better.
Its really a matter of values, and divorce while not ideal has a valid place in the equation as often, its the best scenario for all those involved.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Divorce
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Re: Divorce
Originally Posted by JimBob
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