Divorce

[Ser Clegane]

Fair comments, but "because I want to" just doesn't seem a good enough reason for a divorce to me.

Fully agree

Possibly the same objective could be served by a mandatory two year period between filing for divorce and having it granted (waivable in the case of domestic violence)

Seems reasonable - currently the general rule is that a couple has to live separated for one years before the divorce is granted (of course there are exceptions - a judge has to decide in the end about "hardship cases".

Or, maybe we should abolish civil marriage altogether. Why is the civil law interested in that, optional, relationship? Two adults announce they are having sex with each other and will try not to have it with anyone else- well, great, but what has this got to do with the legal system?.

Not so sure about that - as you are often creating a certain degree of dependency (e.g., financially) in such a relationship some legally defined "groundrules" to protect both partners do make sense IMO

[Devastatin Dave]

Nice to see a steely dan reference from the album "the royal scam" (appropriate for a thread on divorce).

Marriage is a major life committment and shouldnt be done soely on an emotional basis. I've been married going on 9 years, and its the best and worst thing I have ever done. This topic is very subjective based on circumstance, good marriages can go bad, and bad ones get better.

Its really a matter of values, and divorce while not ideal has a valid place in the equation as often, its the best scenario for all those involved.

I've been married nine years yourself and it looks like we have the same opinion, maybe its our condition!!! Anyway, everyone's different and you can't kill the old lady like the good ol' days or sell her into slavery. Divorce is a good thing, no matter what many on my side say. Sure, it can screw up kids but I've seen kids flourish after a divorce. Again, not every kid is the same either. Statistics, psycology, enviroment, the quality of you weed, there are just too many factors to say whats good/bad about divorce.
I told my wife that when she hit 36, I'm trading her in for 2 18 year olds!!!

[Lemur]

What do you propose to do about the divorce rate ? Make it harder to divorce ? Outlaw it ? Because I can't see any freedom loving measures that can work...

I think the change needs to be personal, social and moral. Peer pressure can accomplish things that are awkward and/or impossible for the law. Remember, the law is a blunt instrument, often wielded by the stupidest and greediest members of our society, so I tend to be very cautious about referring anything to that system.

I'm sorry, if you're going to make claims like that in a study that appears to want to look at least a bit scientifc you'd better have data to back it up.

Follow teh link to see teh sources. I didn't include endnotes in the text I copied, 'cause I figured anybody that curious would at least look at the source.

Note for the section you contest:

10 Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas A. Allen, “’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women” American Law and Economics Review 2-1 (2000): 126-169

[Odin]

I've been married nine years yourself and it looks like we have the same opinion, maybe its our condition!!! Anyway, everyone's different and you can't kill the old lady like the good ol' days or sell her into slavery. Divorce is a good thing, no matter what many on my side say. Sure, it can screw up kids but I've seen kids flourish after a divorce. Again, not every kid is the same either. Statistics, psycology, enviroment, the quality of you weed, there are just too many factors to say whats good/bad about divorce.
I told my wife that when she hit 36, I'm trading her in for 2 18 year olds!!!

Wait until she hits 40 and wants more kids....

My personal opinion is that the romantasism of marriage is something derived first from lust then from enhancement of status. Romance is a big part of it I concede, but once kids come a long and a house and committments it becomes its own little business in itself.

I think a lot of people become soiled by this process, that once the romance is gone the dishes need to be done, the laundry put away. Does that make divorce the best option for when things get tough? No, but without it as an option the likely hood of reconcilliation seems to me to be far less.

While there are many imperfections living in a society of free will the concept of marriage and divorce is one that hasnt moved beyond its historical notions yet, and in that spirit you get those who do not look at it in its present day practical application.

[Whacker]

So many posts. I agree largely with what Lemur, Davemeister, and Odin have said so far. I'm hitting my 4th anniv. in a week exactly, and it's been one of the best and worst things I've ever done. Along the lines of why divorce rates are so high, personally I really chalk that one up to laziness. People don't realize that it's not in any way shape or form a fairy tale (except maybe in like .00001% of cases), and it takes a LOT of effort and compromise. No shame here in admitting that we went to counselling for about a year because we were falling apart. If ya's need to do that, at least give it a shot. Just make sure you get a GOOD counselor that you can both relate to, and do NOT go to family members or friends to fulfill that role.

[doc_bean]

Follow teh link to see teh sources. I didn't include endnotes in the text I copied, 'cause I figured anybody that curious would at least look at the source.

Note for the section you contest:

10 Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas A. Allen, “’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women” American Law and Economics Review 2-1 (2000): 126-169

Oops, i don't normally follow links if the entire article is pasted.

Regardless, the place of the citation makes it unclear whether or not the last part of their statement is due to the article. The abstract of the articles talks about custody of the children and economics (a rational decision), and doesn't mention domestic violence, which is completely contrary to the reasons specified in your article. Too bad I can't acces the full article.

EDIT: the reason I found this last line questionable was because it feels like throw away line in an otherwise seriously founded article AND because I've seen studies 'proving' that women cheat as often as men do.

[Pindar]

Does this even begin to answer your question, or am I off rambling down a country lane talking gibberish?

My question was meant to contrast the societal impact of divorce vs. single parent families.

[Devastatin Dave]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

[English assassin]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

Its Hunter S Thompson channelled through Readers Digest,

DD, mate, seriously, you should have your own show.

[Kagemusha]

I would like to point out,that while i support family values. In the end people should do what makes them happy. We should also remember that while divorce rarely is good thing for the children,many times unhappy marriage has the exactly same effect. What is important in my wiew is that people should take responsibilty of their deeds,married or not.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If people want to get divorced they should get divorced. It's no concern of mine if someone get's married and divorced every weekend.

“’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women”

Referencing a crappy song and using the reference incorrectly? Golden.

Maybe we should instead have a mandatory parenthood relationship, that happens to you once you have a child with someone whether you sign up for it or not, and from which there is no get out (obviously this would not be exclusive, you could have more than one).

I do think this makes more sense. If there are no kids there should be no reason for the marriage break up not to occur with ease. I do think you should have to sign up for the kid though, pro-choice and all that.

[Spino]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

Err, you do know those expiration dates they put on food are there for a reason?

[Whacker]

DD, mate, seriously, you should have your own show.

He already does, it's called The Backroom.

[Husar]

Pretty sad thread, the only one I agree with would be Lemur I think and maybe whoever I forgot who has the same opinion.
If marriage and kids are that useless why don't we just have our fun alone or in loose pairs and exterminate mankind that way? Why should we care what happens after we're gone if we're gone anyway? After I'm dead with no kids, the world can explode, be eaten by a big alien or whatever, it's all about having your fun before you're gone, no?
This way there'd be no worrying about kids either, apparently they just cause problems when adults want to have fun and sex.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

If marriage and kids are that useless why don't we just have our fun alone or in loose pairs and exterminate mankind that way? Why should we care what happens after we're gone if we're gone anyway? After I'm dead with no kids, the world can explode, be eaten by a big alien or whatever, it's all about having your fun before you're gone, no?

I suppose I'm just biased because my parents have never been married, and they raised me and my sister perfectly well. So if you don't need to be married to raise kids, what's the point of tying the knot and opening up all kinds of complicated legal issues?

[Watchman]

I don't see where how you deal with kids or don't (or whether you have them or not in the first place) has anything to do with marriage. It's not exactly, you know, a biological prequisite for procreation...

You can have marriages without children and children without marriages (I come form the latter, incidentally). Either may work or not, depending on the people involved; their specific maritial status has rather little bearing on the matter far as I know.

The reason divorces are common these days is IMO simply because they've become practically possible (which they for the most part weren't not all that long ago) and are no longer horribly stigmatized by stiff-necked peers (which was the norm until fairly recently). Sorta like how infanticide and suicide rates have kind of benefited from the fact giving birth to a kid outside marriage is no longer a devastating shame on the mother...

Anyway, I do agree that if one goes and makes children he or she should take proper care of them. Since it tends to take more than one person to achieve the feat that naturally goes for all of the participants; it's a question of basic ethics really, and has nothing to do with the tradition of marriage.

Although that assumes the person(s) in question are actually qualified to raise kids; I've some bad personal experience around the topic. Some people are, or would be, indeed most beneficial for their offspring if their role in their existence were limited pretty much exactly to the biological part...

[Tribesman]

i'm fanatically against divorce. when you marry a woman you are both one, to divorce is to seperate the two which is what God never intended.

Its in the laws of Moses , maybe he misheard God .

Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.

Divorce legislation is ancient .

If people want to get divorced they should get divorced. It's no concern of mine if someone get's married and divorced every weekend.

spot on

[Watchman]

Although one would imagine all the ceremonials and legal wranglings involved were rather heavy on the bankbook.

[Tribesman]

Although one would imagine all the ceremonials and legal wranglings involved were rather heavy on the bankbook.

Yeah , but think of it , a big party every weekend .

[PanzerJaeger]

The problem is not divorce. The problem is people choosing to get married without being mature enough to evaluate their partner and the chances of success of a long term relationship. Too many are getting married for the wrong reasons, including "Romantic Love", without considering whether that type of love will last 2,5, or 10 years in the future.

Its always the kids who suffer because of their parents immature decisions.

[Watchman]

Yeah , but think of it , a big party every weekend .

First time ever I heard you need to get hitched to hold one. Who knew all the drunks wobbling around the city at Saturday night were actually marriage revelers ?

[Watchman]

Its always the kids who suffer because of their parents immature decisions.

As already mentioned, being in love is notorious for turning you into a blithering idiot in many respects.

Personally, I figure the condition is serious enough it ought to count as a mitigating circumstance at court if need be - that the person afflicted is not in full possession of his mental faculties is often readily enough obvious.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night,

Yes its not what it used to be is it? It does sort of get old after 30 or 40 years

I used to tell mine that it had turned into work and I didnt have 3 or 4 hours to devote to it.

If you get married for the right reasons you probably wont get divorced.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

What makes you think you're worthy of the hottest woman ever ?

Most people have to settle, I don't mean that in a negative way, that's just the way it is, finding a partner that is 100% perfect is impossible. But you learn to live with the good sides and the bad, which is imo where love really grows. You love the little things, the little imperfections, I don't think it's possible to love someone who is perfect.

So when you finally deside to 'settle', make sure you don't keep looking for 'the hottest woman ever'.

waking up to a woman is good enough for me. im sure most husbands would find their wives very attractive; the hottest woman ever. you should imo. i agree with you totally right there, and of course no one is perfect.

[Husar]

I suppose I'm just biased because my parents have never been married, and they raised me and my sister perfectly well. So if you don't need to be married to raise kids, what's the point of tying the knot and opening up all kinds of complicated legal issues?

It's an ancient form of showing your partner how much you love him/her and some people still connect certain feelings with marriage etc.
Ideally, if you find the right partner before you marry, there will never be any legal issues, but when marriage was introduced, I don't think the legal systems were as complicated as they are today and divorce was probably not a real option anyway. Our modern societies make many things quite complicated, yet we don't abandon them all.

What's also interesting is that marriage seems to exist almost everywhere, there are marriage rituals in african tribes, hawaiian marriage rituals etc. I'm not an expert and may be wrong, but doesn't that indicate that marriage is not a cultural thing but rather something ingrained in human nature?

[Tristrem]

I really don't have much experience with marriage, i'm still ah youngin as they say (18), but think marrige is really important. I think it is a serious commitment, and one people take too lightly nowadays. Marriage is meant to be for life, not only when it is comvenient and fun.

I know when i have to make that decision, is she the one, there will be a lot of thought put into it, because i'm one of those hopeless romantics, and i think i would not be able to deal with her splitting us up.

just my 2 cents

[rotorgun]

Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it?

My Father-in-law, a man I have come to admire as much as my own father, passed this on to me: "After awhile, you'll come around to the thinkin' that Sex is the most highly over-rated thing in the world, while the most under-rated is a good healthy dump"-J. Massey. I had to admit that he has a point
....chucke.

[Lemur]

I know when i have to make that decision, is she the one, there will be a lot of thought put into it, because i'm one of those hopeless romantics, and i think i would not be able to deal with her splitting us up.

Actually, it's vanishingly unlikely that you'll marry someone and not have problems. Nobody is smart or wise enough to select a partner with whom they will experience no friction, pain or conflict.

The trick is how you deal with conflict. That's where marriage becomes hard but rewarding work. Seems to the lemur that too many people just give up the minute things get rough.

Also, I want to give a shout-out to DevDave. Your posts just keep getting better and better, man. If you're not writing for money, you should think about it.

[Samurai Waki]

I completely agree with Lemur on this one. People are so biased to their side, that they can't see over the fence onto their partners side. I know when Ms. Waki and I first started living in together, there were certainly things about both of us that needed to changed. We fought, but never screaming and yelling, and its the willingness of both sides to come to terms with each other, and making small adjustments. I think a lot of guys...and women walk into a relationship, and say to themselves in a little whisper "Nope. I'm not changing." But its necessary and unavoidable, now if you change too much, then somethings amiss...

Right after my parents got a divorce and my family split across the country, me and my second older brother going with my dad, and my Oldest and Youngest Brothers going with my mom. I remember my dad told me he didn't understand what happened. He said that he always firmly believed in

Love
Respect
Honor
Loyalty

So I didn't understand why my mom left my dad, because these are integral things in a relationship that keep people together. So I asked my mom why she left him, and she told me "We grew apart. He was never home. He never treated me poorly, or did anything wrong to my knowledge, the man I married and who left home on weeks on end, wasn't the same man who came home twenty years later..." I think she was really, really, really depressed and sad about it for a long time.

So learning the lesson from my parents divorce, I've tried my hardest to integrate the four major virtues my dad held dear to him, coupling that with being at my misses's side as much as humanly possible...

[IrishArmenian]

Divorce is fine in some situations. Now, I don't like the 1/2 statistic, but sometimes people realise what a terrible person their spouse is. Now, I don't advocate divorce, I don't like it and it screws up kids but it is a necessary evil.