Plate for spears

[Xehh II]

Are there any spearmen that can get armour better than Heavy Chain?
It would be so cool to have plate amoured spearmen but all the spearmen I've seen can only wear Heavy Chain, please tell me that there are plate spearmen.

[Shahed]

Nope there are not.

2Hs like Obudshaer can get plate though.

[Agent Smith]

Are there any spearmen that can get armour better than Heavy Chain?
It would be so cool to have plate amoured spearmen but all the spearmen I've seen can only wear Heavy Chain, please tell me that there are plate spearmen.

Don't forget that Scottish Noble Pike Men and Heavy Pike Militia also wear plate. And they have the biggest spears in the game

[Shahed]

LOL ... so true !

[Mad Mac]

Italian Spear Militia can be upgraded to partial plate. Yes, this means they're even better than armoured sarges in the long run. Italian Militia units are crazy good.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Italian Spear Militia can be upgraded to partial plate. Yes, this means they're even better than armoured sarges in the long run. Italian Militia units are crazy good.

i guess, if you like having units that route alot easier then armored sarges

[Xehh II]

Italian Spear Militia can be upgraded to partial plate.

This is not true, I tested in a Custom battle they, like all Spearmen can only upgrade to heavy chain.

[Mad Mac]

They have the same morale, actually...

Armoured Sarges:
Cost 540/155
Attack 7/3
Defense 14 Can upgrade to Heavy Mail
Morale 5

Italian Spear Militia:
Cost 460/125
Attack 7/3
Defense 13 Can upgrade to Partial Plate
Morale 5

Although, I notice that in custom battle they only have 2 armor upgrades. this is odd, because they only start with padded, and 2 upgrades should put them at heavy mail. But they are obviously equipped with plate with both upgrades...I don't know any unit that can skip armor upgrades...strange.

[Xehh II]

Although, I notice that in custom battle they only have 2 armor upgrades. this is odd, because they only start with padded, and 2 upgrades should put them at heavy mail. But they are obviously equipped with plate with both upgrades...I don't know any unit that can skip armor upgrades...strange.

They don't have Partial Plate they start with Padded and atfer 2 upgrades they have Heavy Mail, I tested it, their Heavy Mail just looks different.

[Mad Mac]

Well...if by "different" you mean "like plate armor" I suppose you're right. It's still weird though.

[Agent Smith]

Well...if by "different" you mean "like plate armor" I suppose you're right. It's still weird though.

I'm pretty sure the standard heavy mail has a breast plate and helmet for msot factions. My Russian Spearmen have very similar armor at the heavy mail stage as Highland Nobles, for instance.

I did notice, though, that the Papal Guards heavy mail is very unique. They get some cool helmets with their armor upgrade.

[WhiskeyGhost]

They have the same morale, actually...

Armoured Sarges:
Cost 540/155
Attack 7/3
Defense 14 Can upgrade to Heavy Mail
Morale 5

Italian Spear Militia:
Cost 460/125
Attack 7/3
Defense 13 Can upgrade to Partial Plate
Morale 5

Although, I notice that in custom battle they only have 2 armor upgrades. this is odd, because they only start with padded, and 2 upgrades should put them at heavy mail. But they are obviously equipped with plate with both upgrades...I don't know any unit that can skip armor upgrades...strange.

ah my bad, i thought they were close to the same, but i assumed they had like 1 less morale or something due to the fact they seem to perform worse then the sarges

[pike master]

try papal guard.they have some decent armor when they are upgraded.

and in the campaign game italian spearmen will upgrade to partial plate, just not the kind pikemen and halberdiers use.

[Xehh II]

try papal guard.they have some decent armor when they are upgraded.

and in the campaign game italian spearmen will upgrade to partial plate, just not the kind pikemen and halberdiers use.

Papal Guard have heavy chain when upgraded and their armour is exactly the same as ISM which means ISM have heavy chain.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Actually, there are lots of units that skip upgrades, especially late ones. For example tercios:
no armour -> light chain mail -> partial plate

It's all in the Faust here:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84650

[Furious Mental]

In the screenshots one can see that the Teutonic Knights will get some kind of plate armoured spearmen.

I don't know if the Scots ever used to fight in plate armour with pikes. It seems unlikely to me- Scotland doesn't seem like the kind of place for it. English knights did use their lances on foot and were described in one battle account as being in a formation resembling a "hedgehog".

[Ciaran]

Actually, there are lots of units that skip upgrades, especially late ones. For example tercios:
no armour -> light chain mail -> partial plate

It's all in the Faust here:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84650

But do they require the smith building for partial plate to enable that last armour upgrade or will the one before suffice?

What´s important is the stats, not the look.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

The level before will suffice. Fully upgraded, they have an open helmet and plate at their trunk, but no armour at their arms and legs. Stats are the same as heavy mail as far as I know, maybe +1. There's a difference between early armour like in sergants and knights, and the later renaissance armour of tercios or arqbusiers (new model army).

If the armour stats were shown correctly, we wouldn't need to guess anymore. This whole thing is getting on my nerves and they better fix it sooner than later. It's so obvious and didn't even attempt to fix it. Classical laziness.

[Slaists]

They have the same morale, actually...

Armoured Sarges:
Cost 540/155
Attack 7/3
Defense 14 Can upgrade to Heavy Mail
Morale 5

Italian Spear Militia:
Cost 460/125
Attack 7/3
Defense 13 Can upgrade to Partial Plate
Morale 5

Although, I notice that in custom battle they only have 2 armor upgrades. this is odd, because they only start with padded, and 2 upgrades should put them at heavy mail. But they are obviously equipped with plate with both upgrades...I don't know any unit that can skip armor upgrades...strange.

Well partial plate or heavy mail: it really does not matter. What matters, is 2 or 3 armor upgrades. Each upgrade gives +1 to armor rating. The rest is just animation eye candy.

So, if armored sarges can go up to heavy mail with 2 upgrades, while italian spear militia to partial plate with 3 upgrades, that puts them both on par with each other (not accounting for cost differences): they both would have 16 defense. Just one would have heavy mail animation, the other - partial plate.

[Husar]

I got the impression that italian heavy mail includes a few plates here and there, but is still heavy mail.
And in my current venetian campaign, italian spear militia got only two upgrades.

But I also noticed that venetian archers get plate first and then upgrade to heavy mail, at least graphically, switching the upgrade model names easily fixes that though.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

The value of armour upgrades differs somewhat. An upgrade from the leather tanner will give +4 armour, light mail gives +5 in total and heavy mail gives +6.
The armour upgrades are not linear.
The upgrade values shown in game are wrong. For details have a look here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...rmour+upgrades

[dopp]

I thought the conclusion that armor upgrades are working was still in doubt. Lusted at least continues to balance LTC assuming borked upgrades.

I must point out that a simple breastplate with maybe some leg armor and a helmet is not partial plate, it's heavy mail. The armor value is equivalent to heavy mail (armor 7) and the armorer level required to upgrade to it is heavy mail.

Italian Spear Militia can only upgrade to heavy mail, which is armor levels 1, 2 and 3.

[Lusted]

I thought the conclusion that armor upgrades are working was still in doubt. Lusted at least continues to balance LTC assuming borked upgrades.

My conclusion is now that armour upgrades are giving more than +1 they show, but not the value they should. They appear to gvie +2/2.5 for each level. So armour upgades are not just eye candy guys, they're very useful at improving your troops.

[dopp]

Still no word from CA about whether the armor upgrades work properly, or are they not sure themselves? It's difficult to balance the units unless one knows exactly what the upgrades do.

[Lusted]

They're not working properly, that we can be sure of.

[Jambo]

Well, the weapon upgrade gives a lot more than +1 attack that's for sure. What is clear is that what the upgrades do to the stats in-game is not at all representative of what they really do! So I'd be inclined to agree with Lusted that armour upgrades do not just improve by +1 in a linear fashion. As to what armour upgrades really do.. who knows..

[Flavius Merobaudes]

To conclude: heavy mail (old) = helmet and trunk armour (new) - concerning the values.

I still believe that lower quality armour gives larger bonuses per intervall.
For example, leather/gambeson to chainmail is a larger step forward than let's say partial plate to full plate.

What I don't understand is some differences in top level armour. Gothic Knights have the best armour available (advanced plate, lvl.6) but French Lanciers (also advanced plate, lvl.6) have better armour stats. How come?

[Miracle]

Dismounted Sipahi Lancers can be upgraded to Splint Mail which is better than Heavy Mail.

Just to recap here are the armor levels and their corresponding values:

Unarmored: +0
Padded/Leather: +4
Light Mail: +5
Heavy Mail: +6 or +7
Partial Plate/Splint Mail: +8
Full Plate/Heavy Splint: +9
Advanced Plate: +10
Early Renaissance Plate: +11

Note that certain units get +6 instead of +7 armor for heavy mail. They either use light brigandine or Mamluk-style armor.

The Mongols and Timurids use lamellar armor but I'm not sure how they fit in.

[dopp]

What I don't understand is some differences in top level armour. Gothic Knights have the best armour available (advanced plate, lvl.6) but French Lanciers (also advanced plate, lvl.6) have better armour stats. How come?

Slight difference in quality between Gothic plate and very late Italian plate. It's intentional, apparently.

They both get pwned anyway for being stupid enough not to carry a shield (just like pikemen, halberdiers and 2handers, which all tend to be late units). All that advanced armor, tactics and weaponry cannot equal a simple wooden board for sheer fighting effectiveness. The days have truly gone down in the West...

[doorknobdeity]

According to the FUSIL, shields don't help against gunpowder. I would guess that's why they don't have shields.