New hints ???????????????

[Jxrc]

Just two hints to help you deal with the Early Byz

Spies: since the first patch, spies have ceased to be the most-potent units on the map. Since they have a hard time triggering a revolt (except in unruly places such as Portugal and Livonia) and since framing your own general is rather to be done for role playing purposes only, their only remaining specific skill (assassins can catch enemy assassins and spies as well) is to discover enemy general's hidden vices. It does not work that often but it is a very easy way to trigger a civil war because (i) on the first failed attempt, your target will get the "informant" V&V (+2 vs. spies); (ii) on the second failed attempt he'll get "informant network" (+4 vs. Spies, -1 Loyalty); (iii) on the third failed attempt, he will get "Spy network" (+4 vs. Spies, -3 Loyalty); on the fourth, he will get "Assassinator" (+2 vs. Spies, -4 Loyalty, -40 happiness) (you might encounter cases when after "informant" or "spy network" you target no longer has any spy related vice, but that has probably something to do with the "Secret assassinator v&v - +6 vs. Spies, -4 Loyalty, -20 happiness). If you do the same with an enemy king the result can be spectacular (-4 loyalty will become -4 influence) and if you are not afraid of some micromanaging, you are pretty sure to get most solid empire reduced to tiny bits. It is totally cheesy but an easy way to avoid the eastern part of the map going purple after 40 years.
Mounted Crossbowmen : if control the sea and can thus move your unites around freely, you can make some use of the byz weird habit to garrison a coastal province with one single unit of katatank or infantry lead by one jedi-general of some sort. If you attack with a regular army, the jedi prince will retreat and you have a good chance to see your army slaughtered once they counter-attack. On the other hand, if you just produce two units of mounted X-bows (if you do not play the correct faction, just hire some mercenaries) and land those in jedi prince province, the latter will stay and fight. Unless you are a complete idiot, you cannot lose such a battle since all you have to do is keep one units of X-bows running around while the other peppers the katatank (I have lost such a battle once but … I was really tired ….). If you fail or if your army gets stuck in the province after it has won, your maximum loss is two units of Mounted X-bows. 80 mounted X-bows for the death of one jedi general is not a bad deal IMHO. I have experienced a bit and the best I have manage so far is to kill a complete unites of Katatank accompanied with 2 archers units and one of byz infantry (the jedi prince was silly enough to chase my horses and the archers never really caught up). More can probably be achieved but I fear that it requires too much concentration and skill than I have.

Hope it helps,

P.S. do not flame me if those are very old tricks to some of you. I have not checked the entire forum to make sure. All I can say is that I have never read anything on that subject.

[I of the Storm]

I didn't know that -loyalty will become -influence with an enemy king. Most intriguing, many thanks for sharing!

[caravel]

If you do the same with an enemy king the result can be spectacular (-4 loyalty will become -4 influence) and if you are not afraid of some micromanaging, you are pretty sure to get most solid empire reduced to tiny bits.

You cannot conduct a treason trial on an rival faction leader. The equivalent spy operation when applied to rival faction leaders/heirs/generals is to reveal secret vices.

[Jxrc]

You cannot conduct a treason trial on an rival faction leader. The equivalent spy operation when applied to rival faction leaders/heirs/generals is to reveal secret vices.

Just what I said indeed. If you read carefully, you will see that my post is about "discovering vices" and not about framing. I guess the same applies if your spies constantly fail to frame one of your general but in that case inquisitors, assassins and disbanding are much better option.

[caravel]

Sorry Jxrc, after posting that I had an idea that I may have totally missed point.

[Jxrc]

Sorry Jxrc, after posting that I had an idea that I may have totally missed point.

No problem. I did the same at work yesterday ... an embarassing moment indeed ...

My excuse was that I was probably thinking about the faction that I would play as on the next Saturday or considering for the 1,000th time whether arbs +1 are better than pavise arbs valour 0

have a nice week-end

[Weebeast]

That coast-raid, mounted x-bow thing is an exploit. It's like spamming Chivalric MAA and deliberately auto-calculating when facing a combined army or horde of horse archers which you probably won't beat in the field with no forest. Roman Byzantine princes deserve better... I don't know, javelins through rib cage and total destruction of their army?

[Jxrc]

That coast-raid, mounted x-bow thing is an exploit.

Both hints are exploits, no question about that.

Even more so the one with the spies since the AI never uses spies and cannot really defend itself (it takes ages before it add a border fort).

For the one with X-Bows, it's an exploit that uses the AI's reliance on likely auto-calc results to decide whether or not to withdraw (just the opposite system as the one to which you refer with Chivalric Seargents). When the two mounted xbows attack, the AI is silly enough to imagine that the fight will be decided hand-to-hand and assume that a high valour katatank will prevail without problem.

On the other hand, you have to acknowledge that the Byz are massiverly advantaged when they fight the Turks lead by the AI. Given that all battles between AI factions are auto-calc, missile units are not properly taken into account and it's a common occurrence to see one jedi general with a few peasents and slav warriors beat one full stack of HA, spearmen and Turcoman horses.

I am not saying that those tricks should be used but I find they are a nice way to readjust a war between two AI factions without needing loads of ressources ... If you use those tricks against a faction that is already fully at war with you, the games becomes way too easy. I would say that the best part of those tricks is that they enable you to turtle while making sure that one of the AI factions does not own the map before you start making a move.

After that, it's up to anyone to use (or not use).

[caravel]

Even more so the one with the spies since the AI never uses spies and cannot really defend itself (it takes ages before it add a border fort).

The AI trains spies but does not use them on "drag and drop" missions. This is odd because it can use emissaries and assassins in this way, so one would assume that it can use spies to reveal vices also. One possible explanation for this is that it is a bug. The Spy is essentially the STW Shinobi rebranded, though it's drag and drop abilities are extra (the Shinobi had none). It may be that the missions were added but the code was not added to cause the Spy to perform them.

As to Spy behaviour, it's basically broken. AI controlled Spies in MTW do not do much except for massing in one home province. They occasionally do go on the move for no apparent reason but they have very little effect. I have a theory as to why this is. What keeps Assassins, Inquisitors, Princesses and Emissaries moving around are their missions. In particular, Princesses often sit in a particular province if they can find nothing else to do. If these other agents did not have their drag and drop functions they would probably sit around like Spies as well. Priests are far more interesting though, as they appear to work. Priests head for a province en masse and try to convert it. When they arrive in a province it's often the case that an invasion will be the next move. Spies should have been set up to do the same. Spies should also have headed out to reveal vices as this would keep them moving around.

On the other hand, you have to acknowledge that the Byz are massiverly advantaged when they fight the Turks lead by the AI. Given that all battles between AI factions are auto-calc, missile units are not properly taken into account and it's a common occurrence to see one jedi general with a few peasents and slav warriors beat one full stack of HA, spearmen and Turcoman horses.

Very true, this is because MTW does not have balanced armies as with STW. The AI Turks are pretty much a hopeless faction due to missile units. To compensate for this, the Turk unit roster needs modding and units such as Horse Archers removed. The Turks have Turcoman Horse which are stronger, so they don't need HA's. Also the Turks do not need Archers and Desert Archers. Turcoman Foot are better as a base archer unit and have stronger stats. It is also essential that peasants are removed from the game. Once the Turks are fielding these sorts of units, with Ghazis and AHC they have a better chance in auto-calced AI vs AI battles.

[Jxrc]

As to Spy behaviour, it's basically broken. AI controlled Spies in MTW do not do much except for massing in one home province. They occasionally do go on the move for no apparent reason but they have very little effect.

Perhaps the AI is very keen to get those very useful information bulletins "faction A is massing for a new offensive. It appears that faction B is their target" :-)))

Very true, this is because MTW does not have balanced armies as with STW. The AI Turks are pretty much a hopeless faction due to missile units. To compensate for this, the Turk unit roster needs modding and units such as Horse Archers removed. The Turks have Turcoman Horse which are stronger, so they don't need HA's. Also the Turks do not need Archers and Desert Archers. Turcoman Foot are better as a base archer unit and have stronger stats. It is also essential that peasants are removed from the game. Once the Turks are fielding these sorts of units, with Ghazis and AHC they have a better chance in auto-calced AI vs AI battles.

Is there a mod that would do that only ? Or an easy way even for an idiot to achieve that result ? The idea seems great but I am not at all proficient for that kind of thing and do not really want a completely new game, getting rid of peasants for all faction seems a nice project and that would help the Egyptian a lot in early.

[Weebeast]

Both hints...

Well you didn't say you're turtling. I know people have ways to play game their and I'm not trying to change those way. I presumed you're one of those people who play for challenge, whose goal is to conquer whole map so I kinda didn't expect the hint to be as direct as editing the game, giving Byzantine one province and give it an infantry plus the king unit while you invade with two mounted x-bows. I play using -ian on top of mod myself because I play SP mostly for immersion although I like challenge as I'm almost always outnumbered.

Is there a mod that would do that only ? Or an easy way even for an idiot to achieve that result ? The idea seems great but I am not at all proficient for that kind of thing and do not really want a completely new game, getting rid of peasants for all faction seems a nice project and that would help the Egyptian a lot in early.

I can't remember about BKB's Supermod but I know XL Mod gets rid of peasants and Turks are strong. It used to not have siege units too I think but I'm not sure why they're back. I'd presume all vanilla-based mods get rid of peasants or balanced AI's army in general. As for -ian, what it basically does is lets you control first 20 faction in game. You also have the option to play all battles that are initiated in the campaign but I can't recall which button as I don't play all battles. It's pretty fun. It's like playing series of custom battles with a map. It deals with most of problems you mention such as Turks army composition without the trouble of modding the game through trial and error since you're training the army yourself.
https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/ind..._Line_Switches

[Jxrc]

Well you didn't say you're turtling. I know people have ways to play game their and I'm not trying to change those way. I presumed you're one of those people who play for challenge, whose goal is to conquer whole map so I kinda didn't expect the hint to be as direct as editing the game, giving Byzantine one province and give it an infantry plus the king unit while you invade with two mounted x-bows.

You misunderstood me. No modding involved. You may indeed gather from my previous post that I could not mod the game even if I wanted to. I have been playing the game as developped after VI for ages and never changed a thing. All happens on the strategic map. Just need to get rid of the byz navy (i mean sink it and not erase it from the map) and there is nothing more to it.just as simple trick to keep some balance among Ai faction no deleting of units involved

I can't remember about BKB's Supermod but I know XL Mod gets rid of peasants and Turks are strong. It used to not have siege units too I think but I'm not sure why they're back. I'd presume all vanilla-based mods get rid of peasants or balanced AI's army in general. As for -ian, what it basically does is lets you control first 20 faction in game. You also have the option to play all battles that are initiated in the campaign but I can't recall which button as I don't play all battles. It's pretty fun. It's like playing series of custom battles with a map. It deals with most of problems you mention such as Turks army composition without the trouble of modding the game through trial and error since you're training the army yourself.
https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/ind..._Line_Switches

Many thanks for the info. I'll give it a go when I get the chance.

[Weebeast]

You misunderstood me. No modding involved...

I was just giving you a bad comparison with that province thing. My apologies. I understood you hence I told you about "-ian" which lets you take control of Byzantine and disband the navy. Anyway, happy gaming and here's the thread from early days that talks about switches in case you're unsure if your extension is correct, etc... https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=26511

[caravel]

Jxrc,

See attached. Go to your MTW installation directory and rename "CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT" to "CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.BAK". Unzip the file into your MTW directory. Fire up the game and start a new campaign. Let me know if there are any problems.

Changes:

1) Desert Archers only trainable by Egyptian and Almohad in all provinces.
2) Turcoman Foot now only require 1st level bowyer.
3) Vanilla Horse Archers no longer trainable by Turks.
4) Peasants and Muslim Peasants now rebel faction only.

Starting units are unchanged. Factions still start with peasants and Turks still have some Horse Archers.

[Jxrc]

Jxrc,

See attached. Go to your MTW installation directory and rename "CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT" to "CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.BAK". Unzip the file into your MTW directory. Fire up the game and start a new campaign. Let me know if there are any problems.

Changes:

1) Desert Archers only trainable by Egyptian and Almohad in all provinces.
2) Turcoman Foot now only require 1st level bowyer.
3) Vanilla Horse Archers no longer trainable by Turks.
4) Peasants and Muslim Peasants now rebel faction only.

Starting units are unchanged. Factions still start with peasants and Turks still have some Horse Archers.

Sounds great to me. Many thanks.
I understand from your post that it will not kick in for new campaigns.
Small question can still finish old campaigns (with the old settings) once it is installed or does it create some kind of conflict (IIRC there was something that prevented me from palying before_VI campaigns once VI was installed so I have become careful).
Tanks again.
Best regards

[caravel]

I would first finish the campaign you're on and then install the files and start a new campaign - just to be sure.

[Jxrc]

I would first finish the campaign you're on and then install the files and start a new campaign - just to be sure.

OK will do. Might take a few week-ends before I give it a go.

I am in the middle of an Italian campaign in which I have been quite lucky so far. Had my homeland, taken Crete, Rhode and Cyprus from the byz with crusades. Sicilians managed to get a revolt in Malta that I then took from the rebels. They had no better idea than to attack Rome while I still had a crusade marker in Venice ... They got excommed. Crusades launched, sucked papal troops on the way. Arrived in Rome where I took an awful beating against three units of RK, two FS and two MS (a but overconfident I did everything wrong - got my spears stuck against the FS and MS - flanked with my FMA and MS who themselves got flanked by RK coming out of some woods - mass rout and all ... well done ). Next turn I came back with more units and a better general and the Sicilians retreated. Then I took Naples (retreat again). Finally launched a crusade to Sicily (even though the Sicilian king had died they remained excommunicated for some reason ). I won with huge losses (almost all the knights hospitaller accumulated in five crusades were lost in the process ). Sicilian king died without heir and the castle was occupied by the remnants of his army turned rebel ... The next turn, they tried to break the siege (very weird move they had almost nothing - battled won with just archers without loosing a single men ...) Unfortunately, two peasants managed to escape. Thought I was up for a long siege but I received the message according to which the rebels had agreed to hand over the province peacefully ... Weird again ...Then the Hungarian attacked Venice but cancelled their attack immediately. I attacked with all I had in Naples and Sicily and took Croatia from them without a fight. Next turn they tried to take Venice again and reclaim Croatia but took two beating instead (something has to be done to stop them producing jobbagys, it's just to easy if you have a few horses and bows) so that both their best general are weak attacker and good runners. That's when I had to leave Want to finish this ASAP and can't wait for the week-end (only worry is those 8-star byz general in Serbia but their army is just made of crap units so it should be all right). Pope stuck in the papal states with basic troops (just hope that some idiot will not launch a sea invasion ...), HRE has huge stacks of UM and peasants north but nothing serious. The only think that could annoy me at this stage are the crusades that will be launched by other faction and will want cross my land and suck my troops ....

After that short digression ... Well many thanks again

[caravel]

It sounds like an interesting campaign. The Italians are always a good challenge due to their positioning on the map. The Sicilians and Hungarians will always be breathing down your kneck, but in many campaigns where I've been hard at it fending them off, the French and HRE have stabbed me in the back as well. Then if you're really unlucky you either get excommunicated or the Papacy invade... personally I like those kinds of campaigns - plenty of battles and surviving against the odds.

[Jxrc]

The Sicilians and Hungarians will always be breathing down your kneck, but in many campaigns where I've been hard at it fending them off, the French and HRE have stabbed me in the back as well.

In the case at hand, I have only two allies in the nearby provinces, the Pope and the HRE that is already at war with the Hungarian (all my other allies abandoned me when the Hungarian attacked). They only have three provinces left (Tyrol, Burgundy and Switzerland) and are trying to regain control of Austria for the Hungarian. The former other HRE holding are now owned by the French and Polish (don't know the exact repartition). The French send me emissaries every two turns so I might be tempted to switch side and take Burgundy and Tyrol (I already have Provence) before the French do (the AI apparently loves to build a chapter house in Burgundy). Then I will only have to take Austria from the Hungarian when the papal warning expires to get Venice and Milan out of harm's way. If other catholic factions leave me alone, it will be time to send crusade from Malta to get the bonus for knights hospitaller (I bet that the first two crusades I launch will be made of Order foot soldiers just to mess with me but whatever ...). I nevertheless have to restrain myself otherwise the campaign might be basically over before the GH appears.

[caravel]

The French send me emissaries every two turns so I might be tempted to switch side and take Burgundy and Tyrol (I already have Provence) before the French do (the AI apparently loves to build a chapter house in Burgundy).

Could be worthwhile. Don't accept their offers yet, but check if you have heirs that need marrying and if the French have available princesses.

I nevertheless have to restrain myself otherwise the campaign might be basically over before the GH appears

Spoken like a true master.

[Jxrc]

Spoken like a true master.

You're way too kind :))

Could be worthwhile. Don't accept their offers yet, but check if you have heirs that need marrying and if the French have available princesses.

Never got the chance. Not that the French smashed the HRE as expected but the English did backstab the French and erased them from the map ... (the French did help out by sending crusades that never made it since the English took the chapter house each time ....)
Did pretty much nothing myself for about 60 years except taking Austria, Tyrol and Hungary from the Hungarian (routing armies of jobbagys is not really that hard ...), Ireland and Livonia. My influence suffered as a result and since the English were smashing the Spaniards quite easily (why the Spaniards almost never think of building a few barques to have only two provinces to guard is beyond me ...), I started to take the Elmo holdings (from Cordoba to Tunisia - having arbs make it so much easier to deal with AUM). The GH did show up but it was a mini-GH (between 8,000 and 9,000) so that they reach Lithuania and are slowly reduced to piece by the Byz and Polish (they had their and so full that the never made a single attempt to take livonia from me). Brits have done well in the meantime and have destroyed the Spaniards and taken Norway, Sweden, a big chunk of what was Germany and three-four provinces in the middle East (IIRC Palestine, Antioch and Tripoli not sure about non-coastal provinces).

They have large stack and generals with loads of stars (I no longer use inquisitors except when I play as the HRE) but due to the kind of tactic used in inter-AI wars (attack, counter, attack, re-counter, etc ...) all they best general have the "retreats very often v&v" so it should be a not too easy task to get the British empire to collapse after a few defeats . But that is my assignment for next week-end ... Yes, life is indeed hard ....

[caravel]

Did pretty much nothing myself for about 60 years except taking Austria, Tyrol and Hungary from the Hungarian (routing armies of jobbagys is not really that hard ...), Ireland and Livonia.

That's the problem with the Hungarians - they tend to train too many of the Slav Warriors, Javelinmen and Jobbagy units. The slavs are too weak and the javelins are overpowered for the player but underpowered for the AI as they do badly in autocalc battles and the AI cannot deploy them properly in human vs AI battles. The same goes for Spanish Jinetes - great for the player but the AI rarely puts them to good use. Slav warriors can be improved with some modding. The best option is to turn them into light spearmen. Javelin types are harder to balance, if not impossible. One option is to cut their ammo down to a minimum and up their charge and morale a few points, with the "uncontrolled" discipline type as another possibility. This turns them into "throw and charge" flanking types.

My influence suffered as a result and since the English were smashing the Spaniards quite easily (why the Spaniards almost never think of building a few barques to have only two provinces to guard is beyond me ...)

The AI cannot manage navies effectively. It moves fleets around the map with no real purpose in mind (totally random). The only real remedy for this is to remove fleets and shipping from the game altogether.

[Jxrc]

That's the problem with the Hungarians - they tend to train too many of the Slav Warriors, Javelinmen and Jobbagy units. The slavs are too weak and the javelins are overpowered for the player but underpowered for the AI as they do badly in autocalc battles and the AI cannot deploy them properly in human vs AI battles. The same goes for Spanish Jinetes - great for the player but the AI rarely puts them to good use. Slav warriors can be improved with some modding. The best option is to turn them into light spearmen. Javelin types are harder to balance, if not impossible. One option is to cut their ammo down to a minimum and up their charge and morale a few points, with the "uncontrolled" discipline type as another possibility. This turns them into "throw and charge" flanking types..

I long thought that slav warriors were spear unit but found out recently that they were sword units (https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/ind..._Slav_Warriors) ... I have not checked but it seems weird if you look at the combat animation (I almost never use them, too prone to rout). It's true that they cannot fight against horses but they only beat archers and peasants AFIK so it's not really a surprise ...

The AI cannot manage navies effectively. It moves fleets around the map with no real purpose in mind (totally random). The only real remedy for this is to remove fleets and shipping from the game altogether.

Fair enough but if you do that:

- how do you invade islands ? Do you create a imaginary land route to just like they did between Wessex and Flanders ? How does the AI cope with that addition ? Does it still leave a single unit to guard the province or does it react accordingly ?

- what about trade income ? Does it imply that you give a trade bonus once a port is build without taking into account the number of trade routes ? If building the port has the same effect as covering the entire sea with ships, the bonus for naval trade needs to be adapted if faction with access to sea provinces are not to be overpowered.

Finally how do you do that ?

[caravel]

I long thought that slav warriors were spear unit but found out recently that they were sword units (https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/ind..._Slav_Warriors) ... I have not checked but it seems weird if you look at the combat animation (I almost never use them, too prone to rout). It's true that they cannot fight against horses but they only beat archers and peasants AFIK so it's not really a surprise ...

Slav Warriors were probably intended to be spearmen, but definitely do not function as spearmen. Plans must have changed... It's easy enough to change their stats and reassign them as an eastern version of vanilla spears, though it's debatable if this is needed as the Round Shield Spearmen fit this role anyway.

Fair enough but if you do that:

- how do you invade islands ? Do you create a imaginary land route to just like they did between Wessex and Flanders ? How does the AI cope with that addition ? Does it still leave a single unit to guard the province or does it react accordingly ?

Yes, you can create landbridges to all the islands, namely:

Genoa/Corsica (or Tuscany)
Ireland/Scotland (and/or Wales)
Malta/Sicily
Rhodes/Nicaea
Crete/Greece
Cyprus/Antioch (or other neighbouring provinces)

This actually works best and does not cripple the AI. The AI sees no difference between a landbridged province and an adjacent province. i.e. to the AI there is no difference between the existing wessex/flanders connection and the wessex/mercia connection. The AI benefits from this arrangement. How many times have you seen the Sicilian or Byzantine factions reappearing in force... in Malta/Crete/Rhodes/Cyprus without a port? (I've also seen the French or English reappear in Ireland, totally cut off)

- what about trade income ? Does it imply that you give a trade bonus once a port is build without taking into account the number of trade routes ? If building the port has the same effect as covering the entire sea with ships, the bonus for naval trade needs to be adapted if faction with access to sea provinces are not to be overpowered.

Finally how do you do that ?

Trade ceases to function as it once did. There are numerous alternatives however. The first and most obvious is to improve farming income. Trade can also be replaced by giving ports a fixed income, then adding fixed incomes to the trader buildings and their upgrades. This gives a stable and unfluctuating income to the AI.

Another method is to exploit the "local trade" income that already exists but has little effect. This is a single income generated for a single trade goods type within a single province. This can be boosted by editing the values for the goods. This means that the traders will produce differing incomes depending on the goods found in the province, but the incomes will be static. In this way landlocked provinces with trade goods could also benefit from trade - whereas in the vanilla game building traders in such provinces is a waste of time and florins.

It can be achieved with a little time, effort and editing of text files. The next time I get MTW up and running I will be making these changes as a standard, so I can send you the files.

The gains IMHO are great, the losses are small in comparison. The loss of shipping doesn't bother me, nor does the loss of the huge bloated trade income that the player can exploit so easily, but the AI is hopeless inept at managing. Transportation isn't a factor either. As it is, it doesn't work: Too many Almohads in Scotland or Byzantine in Flanders scenarios for my liking. This is the problem with shipping - the AI views a link of shipping from Egypt to Sweden in exactly the same way it views travelling from Egypt to Sinai. The AI does not give any thought to the possibility that the route may be cut off next year... By removing shipping, AI factions get better territorial integrity and stability which is compromised by the shipping in the vanilla game.

[Jxrc]

This actually works best and does not cripple the AI. The AI sees no difference between a landbridged province and an adjacent province. i.e. to the AI there is no difference between the existing wessex/flanders connection and the wessex/mercia connection. The AI benefits from this arrangement. How many times have you seen the Sicilian or Byzantine factions reappearing in force... in Malta/Crete/Rhodes/Cyprus without a port? (I've also seen the French or English reappear in Ireland, totally cut off) :

Seems more than reasonable to me. Will avoid the silly invasion by sea with an army lead by the king ... I have seen quite a few time the Egyptian king attack Rhodes and get stuck there until his death ... Same thing for the French king in Ireland ... Good recipe for civil wars ... On top of that the AI is usually not smart enough to build a harbour and get out of there ...

Trade ceases to function as it once did. There are numerous alternatives however. The first and most obvious is to improve farming income. Trade can also be replaced by giving ports a fixed income, then adding fixed incomes to the trader buildings and their upgrades. This gives a stable and unfluctuating income to the AI.

Another method is to exploit the "local trade" income that already exists but has little effect. This is a single income generated for a single trade goods type within a single province. This can be boosted by editing the values for the goods. This means that the traders will produce differing incomes depending on the goods found in the province, but the incomes will be static. In this way landlocked provinces with trade goods could also benefit from trade - whereas in the vanilla game building traders in such provinces is a waste of time and florins.:

If that can be done, that would be great but a little balancing exercise would probably be need to keep the game "accurate" so that a difference remains between historicaly rich provinces and others. If that is doable, adding a port could trigger the application of a multiplier of the trade income. At first glance I would say 1.5 but it would need testing. Increasing the basic trade and agriculture might also be required if one wants to tech up but on the other hand it might be more accurate if not enough cash is available to buid anything at anytime (feels weird to have fortresses all over the place after a while)

It can be achieved with a little time, effort and editing of text files.

I will have to trust you on that one

The next time I get MTW up and running I will be making these changes as a standard, so I can send you the files..

Please do. You will then be my new hero

The gains IMHO are great, the losses are small in comparison. The loss of shipping doesn't bother me, nor does the loss of the huge bloated trade income that the player can exploit so easily, but the AI is hopeless inept at managing. Transportation isn't a factor either. As it is, it doesn't work: Too many Almohads in Scotland or Byzantine in Flanders scenarios for my liking. This is the problem with shipping - the AI views a link of shipping from Egypt to Sweden in exactly the same way it views travelling from Egypt to Sinai. The AI does not give any thought to the possibility that the route may be cut off next year... By removing shipping, AI factions get better territorial integrity and stability which is compromised by the shipping in the vanilla game.

Yep, Italians invading Sweden and stuffs like that are pretty weird and putting a stop to that would make the game for "historical". On top of that, if the AI sees its own possibilty to invade a province by see, it does seem pretty useless at protecting its own shores from invasion.

Crusades will be much tougher for the human player without navy but that is not a bad thing at all. Would'nt it be a good idea to compensate that a bit and allow the successfull crusader to produce its own crusader units in Palestine, Edessa, Antioch and Tripoli to make an attempt worthwile ? This would make the gamble tempting enough .... Doing the same for the German in Prussia and Pomerania could also be an option but perhaps it's too big of an advantage. Perhaps Livonia is a bit more reasonable.

If on your way you could modify or delete the useless bonus for some provinces (the one about the dismounted knights ...)

The additional benefit of your plan is that solves one of my major beef with the game, the last uncatchable (and in any event invincible) dromon (even if things got a bit better after the first patch IIRC).

Two suggestions if I may:

- might be a good thing to add a few connection from Sicily otherwise a Sicilian campaign will be quite hard ... Attacking the Pope after a few truns is tough ... Connection from Naples to Greece would help the Byz too much in Early. I would at first glance suggest a connection between Sicily and Sardigna. Another solution is to add a connection from Sicily to Tunisia (Sicilian GA Goal) but the risk would be that the Elmo reach Rome after a few turns (unlikely in the Early period during which they usually take a beating but possible in High). Spaniards can do the same, but having Naples as Spanish possession is not inaccurate ...

- some GA campaign will become more than difficult, for instance the French in Early and the Aragonese in Late (even though the connection Sicily/Sardinia would help). French in High will be tough since they cannot get any reinforcement except if new crusades are launched but that is basically the reason why the kingdom of Jerusalem did not survive.
- the connection from the three byz Islands should be made in such a way the they work in for the High Period. I would suggest to connect (i) Crete to Naples, Greece and Rhodes (ii) Rhodes to Nicea and the other two Islands and (iii) Cyprus to Rhodes and Tripoli.

Just food for thought. Perhaps these suggestion would trigger issues I have not contemplated so do not hesitate to dismiss them if you have better ideas.

Ok I will now let you work.

[caravel]

If that can be done, that would be great but a little balancing exercise would probably be need to keep the game "accurate" so that a difference remains between historicaly rich provinces and others. If that is doable, adding a port could trigger the application of a multiplier of the trade income. At first glance I would say 1.5 but it would need testing. Increasing the basic trade and agriculture might also be required if one wants to tech up but on the other hand it might be more accurate if not enough cash is available to buid anything at anytime (feels weird to have fortresses all over the place after a while)

Well the farming issue can be improved by adding an adittional 100% upgrade and by making the upgrades cheaper. The trade issue only needs the trade goods items values to be increased in proportion so the wealthy provinces remain so.

Crusades will be much tougher for the human player without navy but that is not a bad thing at all. Would'nt it be a good idea to compensate that a bit and allow the successfull crusader to produce its own crusader units in Palestine, Edessa, Antioch and Tripoli to make an attempt worthwile ? This would make the gamble tempting enough .... Doing the same for the German in Prussia and Pomerania could also be an option but perhaps it's too big of an advantage. Perhaps Livonia is a bit more reasonable.

This is one of the great benefits. Crusades are harder to pull off. In vanilla the player can create a link of fleets to the province, add lots of units to the crusade and then drop it into the target province in a single turn. The AI simply cannot do this.

If on your way you could modify or delete the useless bonus for some provinces (the one about the dismounted knights ...)

That's easy enough. In the past I've removed all bonuses from the map, because they cause the AI to go berserk trying to tech up to train a particular unit at the expense of everything else.

- might be a good thing to add a few connection from Sicily otherwise a Sicilian campaign will be quite hard ... Attacking the Pope after a few truns is tough ... Connection from Naples to Greece would help the Byz too much in Early. I would at first glance suggest a connection between Sicily and Sardigna. Another solution is to add a connection from Sicily to Tunisia (Sicilian GA Goal) but the risk would be that the Elmo reach Rome after a few turns (unlikely in the Early period during which they usually take a beating but possible in High). Spaniards can do the same, but having Naples as Spanish possession is not inaccurate ...

The best way to improve the Sicilian position is to a) give them Naples in the early Era, which they should have anyway and b) reduce the tech level of Sicily to prevent them expanding too soon. The Siciliy to Tunisia connection is risky. You could do a Siciliy -> Malta -> Tunisia connection but it holds the same risks. The Sicilians ten to explode all over North Africa and wipe out the Almohad in a few years.

- some GA campaign will become more than difficult, for instance the French in Early and the Aragonese in Late (even though the connection Sicily/Sardinia would help). French in High will be tough since they cannot get any reinforcement except if new crusades are launched but that is basically the reason why the kingdom of Jerusalem did not survive.
- the connection from the three byz Islands should be made in such a way the they work in for the High Period. I would suggest to connect (i) Crete to Naples, Greece and Rhodes (ii) Rhodes to Nicea and the other two Islands and (iii) Cyprus to Rhodes and Tripoli.

Firstly any changes will only affect Early anyway. To change High and Late you have to edit the files again - though that's possible. The Greece -> Naples connection is one I had forgotten. That one is quite important.

It's true also that these regions were isolated. They did not have this kind of reliable shipping connecting them, nor supplies and troops ready to ship in at a year's notice.

I've just realised that with the mod I play, I use a different map... Though I don't mind working on a version for the Vanilla map at some point. The map I use has an improved Iberia, Greece, Asia Minor, Near East and North Africa. It also has most of those suggested land bridges already in place. The province layout in those regions is different and Cyrenacia, Sinai, Finland, Switzerland, Rhodes and Malta have been removed altogether. Many new provinces have been added in the above regions however.

Now all I need to do is get a new graphics card and get the game running...

[Jxrc]

Well the farming issue can be improved by adding an adittional 100% upgrade and by making the upgrades cheaper.:

Might be easier just to change the base farming income of a province though. Adding a "100% upgrade" would require more time to build but that might be just want you want to achieve. On the other hand, I kind of get upset when the "60% upgrade" is destroyed when I have almost completed the 80% upgrade (takes you about between 7 and 13 years backward) so I can imagine than going back to 60% when I have almost finished 100% will not please me Not a big problem since it happens only once every ten campaigns ... moreover the time spent for that upgrade is compensated by the fact that there is no longer any point teching up stuff for boats.

The best way to improve the Sicilian position is to a) give them Naples in the early Era, which they should have anyway and b) reduce the tech level of Sicily to prevent them expanding too soon. The Siciliy to Tunisia connection is risky. You could do a Siciliy -> Malta -> Tunisia connection but it holds the same risks. The Sicilians ten to explode all over North Africa and wipe out the Almohad in a few years.

Fair enough but then you need a Naples/greece link otherwise they can only attack the Pope. Not that it would be undoable for an human player but that would ruin most campaigns if a papal resurgence takes place early in the game. To avoid that one could imagine to also make a link Naples/Serbia but that would be too big an advantage

Firstly any changes will only affect Early anyway. To change High and Late you have to edit the files again - though that's possible.

I understand that but it would be nice to have a consistent map if one can spare the time.

I've just realised that with the mod I play, I use a different map... Though I don't mind working on a version for the Vanilla map at some point. The map I use has an improved Iberia, Greece, Asia Minor, Near East and North Africa. It also has most of those suggested land bridges already in place. The province layout in those regions is different and Cyrenacia, Sinai, Finland, Switzerland, Rhodes and Malta have been removed altogether. Many new provinces have been added in the above regions however.:

Fine with me if the whole package can be obtained somewhere. What does happen to Swiss halbardiers with that map ?

Now all I need to do is get a new graphics card and get the game running...

Well do not buy anything "too new" or you'll end up in the Apothecary for a while

[caravel]

Might be easier just to change the base farming income of a province though. Adding a "100% upgrade" would require more time to build but that might be just want you want to achieve. On the other hand, I kind of get upset when the "60% upgrade" is destroyed when I have almost completed the 80% upgrade (takes you about between 7 and 13 years backward) so I can imagine than going back to 60% when I have almost finished 100% will not please me Not a big problem since it happens only once every ten campaigns ... moreover the time spent for that upgrade is compensated by the fact that there is no longer any point teching up stuff for boats.

Good point. Base farming cannot be adjusted globally however. I find that lowering (halving in fact) the cost of the farming upgrades usually has the desired effect, rather than simply increasing farm income on a per province basis.

Fair enough but then you need a Naples/greece link otherwise they can only attack the Pope. Not that it would be undoable for an human player but that would ruin most campaigns if a papal resurgence takes place early in the game. To avoid that one could imagine to also make a link Naples/Serbia but that would be too big an advantage

Yes he Naples/Greece link is vital.

I understand that but it would be nice to have a consistent map if one can spare the time.

I've only ever worked on the Early era so that's pretty much all I can deliver at present. Making all the changes for the high and late eras as well is a huge amount of work: One day.

Fine with me if the whole package can be obtained somewhere. What does happen to Swiss halbardiers with that map ?

The Swiss are based and emerge in Tyrolia. Switzerland did not really exist during that time anyway.

Well do not buy anything "too new" or you'll end up in the Apothecary for a while

Tell me about it... I'm on the hunt for something like a Radeon X800 for a reasonable price. So far no luck.



-Edit: This thread reminds me of another I was involved in some years ago. That one turned into a mod...

[Jxrc]

Good point. Base farming cannot be adjusted globally however. I find that lowering (halving in fact) the cost of the farming upgrades usually has the desired effect, rather than simply increasing farm income on a per province basis.

Yep. There must be something like 20 ways to make it work. Just a matter of finding the right balance. Don't know if somebody has already made his homework in that field but I would not be surprised if someone already had.

I've only ever worked on the Early era so that's pretty much all I can deliver at present. Making all the changes for the high and late eras as well is a huge amount of work: One day.

Fair enough. I was just hoping that some "cut&paste" of the changes could be made in the High period map. Fascinating how easy things look when you do not have a clue

The Swiss are based and emerge in Tyrolia. Switzerland did not really exist during that time anyway.

Well, there must have been some guys with sticks and cows up there even then.

Tell me about it... I'm on the hunt for something like a Radeon X800 for a reasonable price. So far no luck.

A problem that I have avoided by just enver upgrading a PC but just buying a new one each time. The difference is price is not that huge if you get a good dealer (price for the tower and cooling system basically) and it avoids loads of problems. Space becomes an issue after a while though (I now have an Mac Classiq from 1990, a 160mhz pentium from 1995 for very old games in DOS , a 1GHZ Atlon that still use for MTW and a Pentium IV that I was using for work and RTW but that is now broken - hard drive failure ). Problem is when a graphic card does give up on you. I had to buy the cheapest invidia card that I could find and downgrade the default pilots to be able to play MTW. Should buy a fourth one if I want play MTW2 and/or ETW but the comments I read so far have failed to convince me to splash the cash. Perhaps when the extension for ETW comes out, that usually the moment when the CA games become ok (except for some glitches like all kings dying at 56 when VI came out)

This thread reminds me of another I was involved in some years ago. That one turned into a mod...

At least being technically inept protects me from such risk

[caravel]

Yep. There must be something like 20 ways to make it work. Just a matter of finding the right balance. Don't know if somebody has already made his homework in that field but I would not be surprised if someone already had.

I personally believe that adding an STW style trading/income system will work best and the AI will be able to hande it without much issue. The vanilla game falls down because adding the principle source of income to only a single building means that when the province is invaded that source of income invariably get's razed automatically or in the case of trade gets cut off by the random nature of shipping lanes... If there are more than one income generating buildings in a province then this is less likely to happen. I would have income coming from the following:

Farmland upgrades
Mines
Ports
Traders
Churches
Cathedral
Mosques
Grand Mosque

It does not have to be a huge amount of income, but a reasonable amount per structure.

A problem that I have avoided by just enver upgrading a PC but just buying a new one each time.

Well I don't buy PC's, I've always built my own - but I do usually have a second PC hanging around. At present I do have one, but it also needs a graphics card - and anyway I do not want to have to run two PCs.