Computer field

**Caius** · 05-20-2007, 16:28

As seeing Ichigo interest for medicine, I will start this thread to not going offtopic in the other thread.
I love pc's.A part of my life is that.Computers.
I need one and a half to finish High School.Then, I must go to the university.
I know someone here(Sigurd Fafnesbane)who works in the computer field, so I was wondering how many Orgahs are working on the field, and what can you say about it?

Thanks

Caius

**Gregoshi** · 05-20-2007, 18:01

Caius, I worked in the medical sofware field as a programmer for 18 years until I retired in late 2000 after saving my company (and the world) from the dreaded Y2K bug (and collecting my bonus check)

What I really liked about the field was the creative and problem solving aspect of software creation. It was very enjoyable analyzing, designing and coding a solution to the problem at hand. Tracking down bugs also had its moments. This was the "high" made the work fun.

The downside for me was testing and documentation. I also didn't like the often unrealistic deadlines set by some uninformed or optimistic managers..."but I promised them it would be done by this date!" Also, the mentality that by working harder, longer hours will yield the software faster. Unfortunately, software development is more of a creative process than assembling a car, and longer hours don't necessarily mean the work will get done sooner. The last negative for me was being on call. I hated having a pager on my belt over the weekend not knowing when it will go off.

I've been out of the field for nearly seven years now but I stay in touch with a few of my collegues and it doesn't sound like much has changed - at least where I worked.

I'm sure some of the others here can give you a different perspective on the computer field. It is a good field to get into if you like computers and the pay is pretty good too. Good luck in whatever you eventually decide to do Caius.

**Caius** · 05-20-2007, 19:58

Originally Posted by Gregoshi

I'm sure some of the others here can give you a different perspective on the computer field. It is a good field to get into if you like computers and the pay is pretty good too

I guess Im going into the right field then.I started using a pc since I was 5, and I understood very easy on how to use pcs.

Caius, I worked in the medical sofware field as a programmer for 18 years until I retired in late 2000 after saving my company (and the world) from the dreaded Y2K bug (and collecting my bonus check)

Orgah saves the world!

(joking)

Good luck in whatever you eventually decide to do Caius

Thank you, and thank you for spending minutes on writing this, Gregoshi

**Marius Dynamite** · 05-20-2007, 21:13

Im probably heading into this field when I go to University aswell (If I make it, that is).

**SwordsMaster** · 05-20-2007, 21:26

Computer Science grad here. Just finished writing my long and painfully boring thesis, so I'm open to job offers, if anyone has a company that would be willing to pay money for good looks, mild leadership, moments of genius, and a complete lack of interest in programming.

Anyway, my area of interest are mostly mobile communications, wave propagation, GPSs and such, and i find them interesting both in concept and application. Programming i dislike as much as a man can dislike programming, altough, obviously i had no choice but to learn what the course required.

I join Gregoshi's voice in that if you have a very strong interest, it's a great field to get into, but beware, just because in high school you built your own computer, doesn't mean you know anything about the field. That is NOT what this is about. If you wrote your own Haskell compiler though, you'll be in your element.

Sometimes it takes time, and trial and error to find exactly what you want to do. Think that you'll spend 20-30 years of your life doing it. So good luck, and enjoy the freedom.

**Gregoshi** · 05-20-2007, 21:44

Computers covers a pretty broad field from hardware to software to communications to tech support to installations to database/datamining to integration of technologies and so on. There are many ways to go in the technology field.

I was an astronomy major at college/uni and had to take a computer programming course as a degree requirement. I loved it and was bitten by the bug. My degree was in astronomy but my career was in software development. It is funny how life throws you unexpected curves when you least expect it.

**SwordsMaster** · 05-20-2007, 22:01

Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Computers covers a pretty broad field from hardware to software to communications to tech support to installations to database/datamining to integration of technologies and so on. There are many ways to go in the technology field.

I was an astronomy major at college/uni and had to take a computer programming course as a degree requirement. I loved it and was bitten by the bug. My degree was in astronomy but my career was in software development. It is funny how life throws you unexpected curves when you least expect it.

Curves eh?

I see *wink wink nudge nudge*

Well, the education system over here is more rigid as far as picking subjects and minors, so I'm actually considering a transatlantic extrapolation of my educations.

**Togakure** · 05-21-2007, 06:32

I work currently as a systems integrator for a major food retailer (Whole Foods). I used to work for a US state government, starting as a programmer and progressing over twelve years to systems analyst, lead developer, technical project leader, enterprise architect, and finally, enterprise IT consultant over twelve years.

After high school I followed my heart and played in various rock and roll bands for about five years. When I decided to go back to school, I was in a hurry. My goal was to gain employment in a field that started and progressed with good pay, had a wide variety of options as to what I could do, and that looked like it would have plenty of opportunities over many years. Information Technology was it.

While in junior college, I got a job with the state as a Student Assistant in IT. This was key. Once in, I learned that all I needed to test for Programmer I was 18 units of IT-related coursework completed. 18 units--six classes! After spending a year as Programmer I, I was eligible to test for Programmer II, which required a 4-year degree to qualify for otherwise. It was also laterally equivalent to an Assistant Information Systems Analyst position, which also required a 4-year degree.

My point is, you don't necessarily have to go the full university route to get into an IT job and make good money. Mind you, having a degree is a very good thing. The best case scenario is to get into a job with a decent employer as soon as possible. A shrewd opportunist who excels at his/her trade can manuever up into interesting, high-paying positions without necessarily spending 4-6 years just studying. And what you learn on the job will quickly outpace the value of what you learn in school .... Using this strategy, I went from $8/hour as a Student Assistant in 1988 to $55K per year as an Associate within three years. And at Associate we got three weeks of paid vacation, two weeks of sick leave, and 14 paid holidays per year. And a $1 for $1 match to our retirement. Well, the benefit perks are characteristic of government work, but still ... my point is, you can do a hell of a lot without waiting until you finish your degree. That's what most of the others will do. Act "out of the box" and you can do even better.

**Togakure** · 05-21-2007, 06:51

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Computer Science grad here. ... so I'm open to job offers, if anyone has a company that would be willing to pay money for good looks, mild leadership, moments of genius, and a complete lack of interest in programming.

... Programming i dislike as much as a man can dislike programming, altough, obviously i had no choice but to learn what the course required.

... but beware, just because in high school you built your own computer, doesn't mean you know anything about the field. That is NOT what this is about. If you wrote your own Haskell compiler though, you'll be in your element.

Sometimes it takes time, and trial and error to find exactly what you want to do. Think that you'll spend 20-30 years of your life doing it. So good luck, and enjoy the freedom.

The beauty of IT is that there are many functions that do not involve programming: network support, telecommunications, business and systems analysis, IT project management, enterprise architecture, consulting, yada, yada, yada. You might need to write a few scripts, but just about anyone can learn how to do this, particularly with good mentors.

The fact that you built your own computer might qualify you for entry-level help desk work or PC support. While doing that, you'll learn about the most important aspect of IT--Customer Service (yep, you heard me right),--and you might learn about both client-side and server side network support. While doing that you might learn about software applications support and integration, basic database administration, more advanced networking protocols, and IT project management. After spending time doing these things, you would be a good candidate for the management of the infrastructure domain of an enterprise architecture.

Take what you've got and do something with it. Learn more, do more. Take advantage of available resources. Don't stop. You are your own limit.

**Marius Dynamite** · 05-21-2007, 11:03

Plus if you need some extra money, you can work in a shifty computer store installing removeable HDD and HD DVD players into peoples PC's

**mightilyoats** · 05-21-2007, 11:57

I am an electronic engineer. I am SUPPOSED to design circuits... But, as it turned out, I was never that good at electronics... weird, don't you think?

I started specializing in software development, ranging from low level micro processor programming (assembler), all the way up to C++ and C# (.NET) programming. In the end, because of PC's, I ended up with a rather extensive and impressive skill set.

Going into the computer related (lets rather call it technology related) fields is always a good idea. It is a good place to see the newest things and solve the most interesting problems.

It is not about what you know now, it is about what you are willing to learn. If you like solving problems (and creating them sometimes), then this is the place for you!

Read Gregoshi's first post again. It is very accurate also for me.

Good luck with it Cauis! And have fun!

**Caius** · 05-21-2007, 21:25

The fact that you built your own computer might qualify you for entry-level help desk work or PC support

I had never installed my own pc, but If you say to me:Install a new HD I can do it.

I had classes on how to make a new pc run, and the professor told me everyday:Are you sure you understand? I was very young ;) in those times, and I did learn how to.

is not about what you know now, it is about what you are willing to learn

After reading this, im more sure than never.Im going to study this.

Thank everyone for bothering to click in the REPLY button.And one more question:

What is IT?I never heard about that word!

Thank you

Caius

**Gregoshi** · 05-21-2007, 21:59

Information Technology.

**SwordsMaster** · 05-22-2007, 10:52

Actually, while we are on the subject, I just got offered a job that i think is way beyond my ability or qualification, and i am not sure if i should take it.

As I said above i have just graduated, and this company, (on a second interview, no less) has offered me a team leader position in charge of 3 teams, (testing, development, and customer service) and i am unsure if i should take it up....

Ah, the job is Dalian, northern China... and i speak no chinese...

So I was wondering if anyone would have any advice about responsibility in the workplace...

**sapi** · 05-22-2007, 12:23

Would you feel comfortable taking the same job at home, rather than in China?

The language problem can be worked around; but it's important that you feel comfortable working at that level...

That said, I imagine that it'd look great on a resume

**SwordsMaster** · 05-22-2007, 14:16

Originally Posted by sapi

Would you feel comfortable taking the same job at home, rather than in China?

The language problem can be worked around; but it's important that you feel comfortable working at that level...

That said, I imagine that it'd look great on a resume

That's the thing, I am not really concerned about the language either, hell i became trilingual in 12 years, but it is the scope of the job that kinda gives me some respect... I mean, as a graduate, this would be my first proper job, and i'm not sure if i have the knowledge to manage 3 teams successfully and deliver a product on deadline...

And you're right, it would look great on a resume....

Decisions, decisions...

**pevergreen** · 05-23-2007, 01:41

I, myself can not really relate to it, but i can tell the story of my brother.

After graduating, he got offered his job at the same place he did the required work experience at, and accepted it. He was put in charge of a team, and his first project was something he had no idea how to do. Doing a degree in mechatronics did not really prepare him for building a staircase, he said. He is now (8 months later) joint head of the water pipeline from Brisbane to the Northern Territory (It will deliver water to the drought areas)

He is home 2 out of 14 days, but he seems fine. Do what you think is right, and take sapi's advice.

**Togakure** · 05-23-2007, 04:19

These questions came to mind off the top of my head when I read of your opportunity:

- What do you have to lose? You never really know what you're capable of until you try. What are the risks? What might you gain?

- Who will you report to, and what are their expectations?

- Who are your customers and what are their expectations? Are their expectations manageable?

- Do you have business subject matter expertise? Do your teams? How closely will you be able to work with those who will use what you develop? Will they provide subject matter experts to assist?

- What is the nature and scope of the project? Or will there be many projects over time? If so, how many concurrently? How big?

- What kind of budget will you have? What timelines are involved?

- What are the sizes of your teams? Will you have subordinate subteam leaders, or will you be responsible for these three related, but distinct teams? How experienced are they?

- If you're developing, testing, and providing customer support services, is another group doing requirements definition and traceability, business and systems analysis, specifications development, and process/applications design? What is the working relationship between your teams and those who will be performing these functions, upon which your teams' efforts will depend heavily?

***

Anyway, it's late and I'm very tired. But that's what popped into my head.

**SwordsMaster** · 05-23-2007, 15:06

Wow, that's some heavy thinking before bed...

See, the problem is that i don't have too many details either. I know that it is security updates i will be working on, and I know that the client is a huge power supplier, but little else. I also know, that gathering specifications and design is part of the job.

I do not know about subteam leaders, but I do know that an update approximately every 2 months is expected to keep up with the security requirements of the client.

The way I understood it, there is already a product that has been supplied to the client, but it requires frequent security updates to address specific needs, which is where I come in, I'd be in charge of amking sure the needs are met, every 2 months and will have 3 teams under me, as I said before, development, testing, and customer support... Basically, since the product is a security update, i expect the development team to be rather efficient, testing to be tedious in procedure but straightforward, and customer support to be a lesser issue if the other 2 phases work well, since we'd be building on top of the company's own software.

I'd have to report to a managerial team (I imagine a customer service board) of my own company, as well as a representative from the client company (no more details on who, this could be).

I really have nothing to lose professionally, since my CV is lean and clean, except a long time away from my girlfriend (which is part of the reason i'm hesitating...), and a lot to gain professionally. With 2 years (duration of the contract) experience in this kind of position, I'll be able to work almost anywhere I want in the sector, or even move myself out into the management spheres of pretty much any area of business....

The risks are, of course, personal life, and a bad reference if I do not succeed. (By the way, I'm so glad these guys are not familiar with my work ethic...

)

Anyway, this is pretty much all the info I have, and any advice would be appreciated...

**Togakure** · 05-24-2007, 05:28

Heh, I've given more advice in my life already than ten men should give in their lifetimes. Advice is all well and good, but you don't really need it m8. Based on what you wrote in response to the questions posed, it's apparent that you can arrive at your own answers. Just invest some time and focus. The weather's better now in most places in the Northern hemisphere; I'd advise

finding a nice, comfortable spot without too many distractions, relaxing, and pondering this opportunity further.

I have had the DAY of the year today as far as hyperworkostressumania goes, so forgive me if I disjoint here and there.

Before I forget: details are important. Gather as much intelligence as you can before you have to make your decision. Information-based decisions tend to be more sound than those made from the hip. Acting on a "gut" feeling is risky. This is all the info you have right now. Tap some resources. Network. How much time do you have before you have to decide? Make good use of it. This sounds like a big opportunity for someone sprinting off the block, and worth the investment.

Being away from your girlfriend can indeed be a significant risk. Then again ... well, heh, nevermind. I was thinking of the pics my UK TW friend Trajanus posted with his Chinese girlfriends. He's entrepreneuring in Chengdu right now, silk business, I believe. Come to think of it, he might be a good resource in regard to UK businessmen doing business in China. He's a member here.

Ok. So it's not a software development project per se, but the ongoing support of a specific, production IT service--security updates via a software product. Specific is good. I think it's safe to surmise that Customer expectations will ultimately depend on how effective they perceive their security to be in the areas for which you are responsible. I emphasize 'perceive' because I think it's an important point: managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations.

A big question remains: how big? Answers should help you gauge the frequency and magnitude of the security issues you and your teams will be commited to address in two-month intervals. They should give you an idea of how many actual people your Customer Service team will have to support. They should describe the infrastructure upon which your product operates, and which your product protects. These, balanced with the human and financial resources made available to you, will play a big part in determining your success over two years.

Speaking of teams, there is much type about managing, but what does it take to lead others well? This is important in the scenario you describe. Be wary of accepting a scenario where "how big?" is really big and you don't have the teams to handle it, or they aren't skilled enough and the time and funding for good training isn't available (emphasis good; there's a buttload of crap training out there).

A "huge" power supplier ... with complex distributed systems which your product protects? How well-architected and maintained is the Customer's IT infrastructure? This affects its susceptability to security breach. The nature of their competitors affects this too, aside from the common security threats. If a security problem is caused by an infrastructure weakness which your product can't address, but your customers don't understand that and expect you to address it ... well, I think you can see where I'm going with that.

Is the product that was delivered solely a security product, or does it have other functionality? If it does, who supports/manages the other functions, and how do they integrate with security and updates? If you have to depend on and coordinate with other teams not under your control, the politics become quite a bit more complicated. This increases scope and can directly affect your timelines, and consequently, the quality of your deliverables. Here, co-service provider partnerships become a very important thing to manage.

Based on what I've experienced, whether managing a software development project or directing IT services, the technical challenges are almost always outweighed by the challenges presented by managing relationships--with your command, customers (at various levels), co-service providers, and your crew. Here, a language barrier can be a huge roadblock. Hopefully, the groups can speak and understand English well enough, and translators are available. Still, expect at least initial frustration given how critical communication is in this field.

Realistically, you won't be able to know half of this before you'll make your decision. But anything you can learn along these lines and lines like these will aid you significantly in making a good decision. Gather your intelligence. And don't forget to balance all this business concern with your health and happiness. Nothing is more important than that.

My Gah, I am rambling along tonight, worse than usual. I'd better wrap for now, and get some sleep. I'll check in again. Fruitful gathering and pondering to you.

**sapi** · 05-24-2007, 09:14

Cant' really say much more than go with what you believe. Having doubts will in many ways make you a better leader than anything else...

After graduating, he got offered his job at the same place he did the required work experience at, and accepted it. He was put in charge of a team, and his first project was something he had no idea how to do. Doing a degree in mechatronics did not really prepare him for building a staircase, he said. He is now (8 months later) joint head of the water pipeline from Brisbane to the Northern Territory (It will deliver water to the drought areas)

Ah, so that's who's to blame

**SwordsMaster** · 05-24-2007, 11:41

Thanks to both for the advice.

Masamune you seem to have quite a bit of experience in the managerial field. Have you done this kind of thing before? I work well under pressure for shortish bursts, but as everyone else, after a burst i need time to decompress.

I have also been sending a few emails probing further, and here's what I found out. The object I am required to provide security updates for is a "Computer Image" (obviously the HHRR guy knew nothing about it), and the client is GE (General Electric). Apparently the company offering me the job and GE have been working together for quite a while so I expect an amount of trust (or bitter politics) to be there already...

The HHRR guy couldn't (or didn't want to) tell me more, since I have not actually taken the job yet. I wouldn't actually start until October anyway...

As of the language, I am not overly concerned, I am quick at picking up languages, the company provides what seems like an exhaustive language training (12 hours/week for 3 months) and I expect most of them to have some english at least.

managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations

Do you mind if I siggy that?

EDIT: Ah, Crap! The latest update came in the form of an email wishing me future with my career since they weren't giving me the job. Mental note: get the job first, and then broadcast on the forums...

**Togakure** · 05-26-2007, 00:13

No big deal that you didn't get the job, m8. There'll be plenty of other opportunities. When that's happened to me I figured it was just karma, letting me know that wasn't the one. Next?

I don't know what HHRR is ... a form of employment agency? Employment agencies usually play their cards close to their chest, making it difficult to get important details until after you commit. I've not liked using them for that reason among others.

I did twelve years of IT time for a US state government (California). I left the government a while back, and now I'm in the private retail business doing IT, as I mentioned. My experience is broad rather than deep; I'm an 'expert' at nothing, but can function well doing a variety of things IT.

I've enjoyed being a product manager (called a 'technical project leader' where I was), but don't care to be personally responsible for the motivation and performance of others. I've passed up administrative managerial positions in favor of more technical, product-related roles. I like visualizing, designing and making things that delight my customers and enhance their efficiency and effectiveness. I don't mind planning, organizing, scheduling, communicating, training, etc., but I don't enjoy trying to herd cats, I mean, manage (sic) people. I leave that to the project leaders.

Currently I'm working as a systems integrator, dealing with a wide variety of production retail devices and systems on a distributed regional team. It's interesting, but I miss development. Support is constantly hectic. Projects have a nice curve to them.

I'll trade you the sig line for some of that short burst for this week. We're in the middle of "going live" with a replacement for our central production system: 36 stores, and some of the stores in our regions are quite large, four in Manhattan. I feel battered and bruised already, and we've got a ways to go yet. Gah.

What "insight" I have has come from working with both really good, and really crappy managers and leaders, quite a few of them over a good many years. Often they were my customers, when the projects were to provide tracking systems for this or that or another thing. I learned a lot about managers/leaders doing those projects. Heh, I've also spent many years criticizing them too, and you need to be on your toes when you go up against the leadership machine, lest you find yourself designing and executing new ways to polish the toilet with a toothbrush.

**SwordsMaster** · 05-26-2007, 14:48