Challenges of XL

[bamff]

Inspired by King Kurt's queries re: the Teutonic Order, and having read of a number of players singing the praises of the challenges afforded by Portugal, what are the more challenging of the "new" factions introduced in XL?

[Deus ret.]

Portugal, as you mentioned. Good strategic position but rather small and not too rich.

Serbia, although some people claim it's actually quite easy in High. In early it's nigh impossible because neither the Hungarians nor the Byz are particularly weak, to say the least.

Ireland! Poor lands with some unique and interesting units. Of course no uber cav to ram foes into the ground but still...

Armenia. My personal favourite of the small ones. They have good units (esp. Armenian infantry and those knights ...Naxarars?.... are also excellent), but they are in the unenviable position of being surrounded by larger powers. It's essential to establish a foothold in the beginning; this means battling the Turks, the Byz and probably the Crusaders, who often grow powerful after finishing Egypt. Oh, and did I mention other crusades coming your way? Or the threat of the Horde (it appeared largely in Georgia when I played the faction)? In any case I recommend them if you're in for a challenge and some turbulences.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Ireland and Armenia in Early (Ireland is only available in early) are tough to play with, due to their small size and strong neighbors. The Volga Bulgars have better chances of Expansion, but later have to face the full might of the Horde. Portugal and Serbia are manageable.
Actually, I have discovered Sweden and Poland to be relatively tough. The Polish can expand rapidly against the HRE and then take advantage of the war between the Cumans and the Hungarians, but then have to deal with really powerful enemies on all fronts - the Byzantines or the Fatimids in the South, the Danes in the North, the Kievans or Novgorodians in the East (their troop rosters are a bit overpowered in early) and the French in the West. Later of course the Horde comes.
Sweden is tough, because it is surrounded by hostile neighbors. The Danes have a better starting position, and the Lithuanians will go out of their way to sink every boat you put in the Baltic, even if they are your allies. Norway will resist until the end, often managing to get you excommunicated.

But finally, if you really want an impossibly difficult campaign, try the Volga Bulgars in High and see if you can survive past 1240. I do not think I have ever been able to.

[Martok]

In the Early period, the Armenians are definitely the hardest, with the Irish being a close second. Kavhan Isbul already laid out the reasons why as well or better than myself, so I'll not repeat him.

Norway's fun, but I find them to pretty much be a one-trick pony: Far and away the easiest thing to do is take out the Swedes right away, and preferably the Danes as well. Otherwise, you'll quickly go bankrupt trying to build ships and develop trade. Fortunately, blitzing Scandanavia isn't hard -- since you can churn out those wonderful +1 Vikings -- but it does make the Norwegians a bit one-dimensional.

Definitely my two favorites thus far are the Bohemians and Portuguese. They both start with only one province, and are in a precarious strategic position at the beginning. One must find a balance between boldness and caution when playing as either of these two factions.

[Eternity]

When I first started XL, I found the HRE to be quite challenging. I took Venice early in the game, which resulted in a war on all fronts early in the game. The campaign didn't stablize until I secured some fleets in the Mediterranean, but after that it was quite easy.

I also decided to give Volga Bulgars in High a try after reading a post by Kavhan Isbul about how they're the hardest faction, and boy was he right. Starting from 1205, you only get 25 years before the Mongol Hordes comes charging in, which means I had to meta-game and run far from those border lands, or else I'll be slaughtered. In my first try, when the Mongols finally came, they took Volga Bulgaria and Muscovy from me, and when I was stuck in Novgorod, the Teutonic Order came storming in with their 5 units of knights and finished me off. I had better luck on my second try, and was able to last well into the Late period, although I only had a handful of provinces, at which point I got bored and just left the campaign sitting at that point. But if you want a challenge, definitely try this faction.

[Don Esteban]

I'm playing bohemia right now and it's certainly very challenging - a mix of trying to grab territory while avoiding being steamrollered by more powerful neighbours.

[r johnson]

Serbia in Early period;
Positioned between the Byzantiun (how do you spell?) and Hungarian empire theres not far to expand. Though because of this it makes it more fun.

Personally I fount Ireland to be fairly easy. Expand the navy and attack Brittany - where the French can't defend easily - and you've got a good economic starting point, you could attack Wales if you so wished but it's again opinion.

[naut]

Bulgaria. I'm useless at playing as them to boot.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Bulgaria. I'm useless at playing as them to boot.

I have found Bulgaria to be of moderate difficulty in XL, especially in High when Constantinople is easy to be taken and its income ensures a bright future for any faction that gets to control it. Greece is also rebel, and Serbia is just a 1-province faction, likely to be your ally and get in war with the Hungarians. The only potentially difficult moment is the arrival of the Horde, but there are plenty of rivers on the way, and the Bulagrians have access to arbalesters and halbardiers (which IMO is not quite historically accurate, especially as far as arbalesters are concerned). Add to that Slav Javelinmen and you are invincible in bridge defense situations, then add the Boyars and the Bulgarian Heavy Infantry and you have a nice all-around roster with some extras such as Vlach Mercenary Cavalry and Bulgarian Cavalry (basically Byzantine Cavalry).

Now I never thought of getting Brittany with the Irish as initial target for expansion, but it is a pretty good idea actually.

[Innocentius]

Speaking a bit about Bulgaria, does anyone know just exactly how good Bulgarian Armoured Pikemen are? And how historically accurate they are? I have checked their stats and for what I can tell they're basically slightly lesser counterparts to Swiss Armoured Pikemen, but stats don't prove very much IMO, and I don't have any real battle experience of them.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Speaking a bit about Bulgaria, does anyone know just exactly how good Bulgarian Armoured Pikemen are? And how historically accurate they are? I have checked their stats and for what I can tell they're basically slightly lesser counterparts to Swiss Armoured Pikemen, but stats don't prove very much IMO, and I don't have any real battle experience of them.

Historically, they make as much sense as a fantsay unit of English Horse Archers with composite bows would - none at all. Viking Horde probably wanted to give it to the Bulgarians for balancing issues. I avoid building them, but consider this - the best spear unit the Bulgarians have apart from them is armored spearmen, which have trouble holding the line against Chivalric Knights and Mongol Heavies.

[Wasp]

I tried the Irish and the Scots first with XL, and I second (or third) the opinion that Ireland is hard. You will have a small budget to work with, so it is vital to grab some extra land early. The English can lose some easily if you're smart, and Wales should be relatively easy as well (you could also bribe the Longbowmen, gives you some really good units 100+ years before they arrive).

The Scots are a tad easier, since they can conquer Northumbria easily (in my games, the English usually run right away, even if the odds are slightly in their favor). I usually grab Wales with a bribe as well. From there, slowly expand to get all of Great Britain and Ireland, and then look either to Scandinavia (if you're quick enough, the Norwegians will only have one province, and should be quite an easy take) or the coast of France.

I'm currently enjoying a great Scottish campaign. I have Great Britain (but not Ireland), Brittany, Flanders and Friesland. Playing GA, of course.

[King of Bavaria]

I'm only playing Xl mod (when I'm not playing the viking scenario), I think it is generally more challenging, especially because of those aggressive one-province-starters.
The situation for the HRE is even bader then normal, I did never see them surviving as an empire for long. Bohemia seems to attack them always, one more enemy!
I've only tried the Scots as a new faction, and I'm enjoying my current early campaign with them.
Both times I started as the Scots in early, I had to wait until my ships produced enough trade to build a small army. Then I took over Scandinavia, kicking out Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
As the next step I just had to wait for the war between French and English, as the chance to take the whole Island, or as it's now called: "Greater Scotland"

Now I'm in e very nice situation: A couple of nice provinces, great trade potential, and nice upgraded troops (including huscarles) from sweden and just one border to defend!

Scots are nice to play!

I think armenia is very difficult to play, I never tried, but I did never see them surviving without re-entry.

[naut]

The Scots are good fun, I tend to take Pomerania/Prussia early on too.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I think I managed to start a successful campaign with the Volga Bulgars in High, Expert. Here is a screenshot in 1236:



It was easier than expected - I invaded Ryazan with pretty much all I had on the second turn (had to build watchtowers to see what is there) and it was easy - there are only HAs in Ryazan and a unit of archers - just ran them over with my BRC and 1 unit of Steppe Cavalry, did not lose a man. Next turn stormed the fort with few casualties. From the very beginning I started churning out Bashkorts because of the low cost and versatility, and I built an Inn in Volga Bulgaria. After training a few units of Cherniye Klobuki mercenaries finally showed up. I hired almost all of them and invaded Moscow, as I did have any time to waste. At the same time the Russians decided to invade Ryazan and for some reason caught half my army there with the Khan. They only left a unit of UM and a unit of crossbowmen in Moscow, making the battle too easy and allowing me to avoid the siege. The battle in Ryazan was tough, as they had two units of Boyars and some halbardiers, but I won, despite giving more casualties - it was something like 550 to 500, but the Bashkorts carried the day and the Russians were effectively blitzed.
Then I allied with the Novgorodians and as they transferred their troops to Smolensk (the AI sometimes really believes in alliances) I broke the alliance and invaded Novgorod. Very tough battle, but the Bashkorts came through again. A Druzhina infantry unit really gave me a hard time and I only managed to rout them once they got exhausted. The Novgorodians never counterattacked, so I stormed and took the fortress quickly and then I stopped, preparing for the Mongols, training Bashkorts and Kazanchis as crazy.
My plan was to put two units of Kazanchis in Volga Bulgaria together with a 3 star prince to boost them a little. Then I intended to hold out indeffinitely using the bridge between Volga Bulgaria and Moscow. I put two boats in the Baltic just in case and as it turned out, right in time. The Swedish attacked me and lost the naval battle, which caused the Russians to attack me in Ryazan breaking an alliance (we were allied by then, things change quickly). I decided to leave them Ryazan and make them defend it from the Horde, and it payed off. With the Swedish main army in Finland and their single boat gone, their homeland was an easy grab and I took it just to have a shelter in case the defense against the Horde went really bad.
The Horde appeared in 3 provinces, with only several stacks in Khazar and the other two provinces I guess were Georgia and Armenia, since I could not see them. That helped! The same turn the Novgorodians and the Swedish launched an allied invasion in Novgorod, which resulted in a great defeat for both of them, and especially for the Novgorodians, for whom it was the end as all their royalty was killed. I was able to win thanks to two 6 valor units of BRC (and the Bashkorts, again). The Horde invaded Volga Bulgaria and I simply withdrawed to the castle, as planned. Their first attempt to assault ended in a humiliating defeat thanks to the inadequateness of the AI, but at the end it managed to kill quite a few of my troops with massed missile fire. Then the AI assaulted one more time the next turn, even though the castle was about to fall anyway and I just autocalculated the battle, and this was the first battle I lost. But I finished off the Swedish and took Smolensk from the rebels.
Now it appears the Horde will go no further, and I am building a Jihad in Novgorod as I plan to retake my only homeland. The Danes will probably attack me in Sweden, I just wonder why they have not done it yet. I guess the Order which has been sitting quietly in Livonia, amassing Teutonic Knights, will also attempt an attack on Novgorod sooner or later - I have a slim hope they might choose to attack the Lithuanians instead. Thanks to conquest I am leading in GA points, and I actually think I have a chance this time - I just need to take care of my neighbors one by one. This is the first time I see the Horde appear in 3 provinces, neither of which included Volga Bulgaria. I was deffintely lucky the main impact was south. Still a long way to go.

[Digital]

Nice Influence there. I may try Volgar Bulgar when I finish the Cuman campaign. I find the range of soldier that the Cuman can build is quite limited. Another interesting game will be the Armenian.

[Tony Furze]

I ve just (re) started a game as Serbia on Normal / Early. Its highlighting the chess like nature of the whole game. With a small initial army Im having to choose units wisely, and be careful who I have to shuffle around to initiate an early expansion.

[Galagros]

I tried doing something different as Norway because it's too easy to take all of Scandinavia or all of the British Isles. I instead invaded Friesland and from there continued to pick away at the HRE. It wasn't easy because my army was tiny, but luckily most of the HRE's units are spearmen in the begining. This plan basically made me go bankrupt, which meant I had to sit around in 4-5 provinces until I made some money.

Eventually after 2-3 failed attacks on my part I lost 2 provinces and ended up defending for a long time. By the time I was strong enough to attack again without leaving myself undefended, the Castillian-Leonese had almost obliterated the French and were on my doorstep!

[_Aetius_]

I've been destroyed as Portugal before on XL, through no fault of my own really,the Almohads simply overpowered my army before I had a chance develop much at all.

I've also never mastered the Holy Roman Empire on XL, I believe the empire shares borders with 7 or 8 other factions on Early, Bohemia, Poland (not sure about Poland in XL havent played it in awhile), Hungary, Venice, France, Denmark, Croatia and Genoa. Whether its 7 or 8 it's an enormous task to be able to hold the empire together for any length of time. All it requires is for the usual war with France to get underway, the usual Danish raids into Saxony and for just 1 other faction (usually Hungary) to invade you in the east and there simply aren't enough armies to hold onto everything.

Often I find myself up against atleast 5 factions at once, civil war is inevitable in those circumstances, there just isnt a strong enough financial base to raise the necessary armies and develop the provinces with the mere basics such as watch towers and farming. I think the HRE wasn't given enough care when XL was developed as 3 new factions had been added which shared it's borders (counting the Venetians as Italians here) the HRE is in a dangerous position in vanilla, in XL it's almost impossible to avoid a 3 front war which you almost always lose. It's a situation where I win the battles, but still lose the war.

It's obviously possible to be a success with them, but they are a frickin nightmare to play as early on whatever happens.

I hate playing the really small factions in MTW, because I think it's boring how sometimes a small faction which has no place being a superpower owns half the map. It's silly seeing small factions rampage around the map, simply because it isnt realistic and their armies aren't really suited to being a huge empire.

[bamff]

So many options....I can't wait to wrap up my English campaign so that I can move on to the world of XL!

[King Kurt]

As an XL new boy, I have got to say that part of the fun is not only all the new factions to play, but the fact that you have to alter your style of play to reflect the changes that have occured in the mod. In vanilla MTW/VI I had developed a style of play which was a quick land grab at the begining of the campaign, then a small turtle while you built up your empire and in particular your trade empire. Then, when you had a cash reserve you embarked on a rapid expansion which normaly sparked a cash crisis due to your trade dropping off, but you overcame that by the addition of many new provinces. In XL, with trade being devalued, you have to take a more circumspect approach. In my first campaign I am adopting a small bite approach where you take a little, regroup then take a little more. Instead of a blitzing steamroller approach, you have to plan a bit more, constantly regrouping and repairing your forces. You also have to be a bit more careful in which province you go for - their financial output is much more important. So all in all, it has made it a good game even better and richer in its depth.

[Martok]

Yeah, when I first picked up XL I discovered that my beloved Egyptians could no longer be played in the same way as in the vanilla game. (My old tactic of bum-rushing the Turks out of Syria right away no longer worked so well!) One of the reasons XL is so enjoyable is that everyone's opening moves -- whether they're one of the new factions or one of the originals -- tends to be less predictable than before.

[Roark]

I've become officially addicted...

Going into battle with Hospitaller foot Knights was previously a very rare joy indeed. Now I can match them up against the best troops of 7 or 8 different factions at a moment's notice.

Peasant exclusion = good.

[General Dazza]

You're right Aetius about HRE as being difficult on XL, but I don't think it's too hard.

I'm playing my second XL HRE game on early, and have just started to get on top in about 1200, but it's taken a long while. My first game I was excommed and then invaded by just about everyone and their aunt Martha.

I think the main thing to do early is to build your forces while not being attacked. In this game Hungary attacked early, as did France and also Italy. I managed to take terrotories of france while ceding Austria and Bavaria (iirc) to Hungary. I managed to hold the lines there until I attacked Italy's provinces. I eventually pushed Italy off the continent only by wiping out the pope at the same time (every time I touched Italy he threatened excomm).

Now it's 1200ish, I've just killed off Hungary and England's King sits in Sweden. I've also just taken Serbia and Greece off the Byzzies, who were eventually beaten down by the eggies.

It's been a really tough game - but also fantastic.

If there's one thing to do as HRE it is NOT to be excommed. But XL is absolutely fantastic.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, General Dazza! Glad you're enjoying the HRE in XL.

[Deus ret.]

It's been a really tough game - but also fantastic.

If there's one thing to do as HRE it is NOT to be excommed. But XL is absolutely fantastic.

I agree, although I have to add that despite beating the faction in MedMod (somewhat more difficult than XL), for some reason I never managed to survive with the HRE in XL for more than around 20 years - admittedly I started in High but I thought it wouldn't make such a difference.

What were your strategies?

[General Dazza]

Can't find how to quote in this forum, but in response to What were your strategies?

The thing I learnt from my first aborted attempt was that you can't be too aggressive. So I basically didn't attack anyone until attacked myself, and tried to build up some decentish troops along the major borders.

When I was attacked, I'd only defend the province if I was very sure of winning. Otherwise I'd retreat to the fort/castle etc, and attack in more numbers next turn. When I realised that I was fighting a losing war against Hungary and their javelins/cavalry combo, I ceded Austria and the province to the north and tried to put them off further attacks by consolidating in strength in the next provinces.

I think you need luck too though - Denmark didn't attack with their vikings etc and neither did Poland.

Once I'd managed to develop a bit of a stalemate, I used the time to build up troop quality. I attacked Italy when my money was running out and needed more provinces to boost income. But I stopped when the pope threatened excomm. I also took advantage of the weird thing that if you're threatened with excomm with one enemy and obey, you'll usually be able to attack another threat-free.

I think France is the main opportunity, because they don't have the quality of troops as Italy/Hungary/Denmark iirc, and if you can get Flanders you can boost your income.

The thing that really did it for me though was when I finally got into a position (after many grinding battles and regular ceding of provinces) to finish of Italy, I killed the Pope too so I could remove the inevitable excomm quickly. I also got lucky there because Italy put 2500 troops in Provence and I managed to isolate it and defeat it.

Sorry for long post but I hope that helps - I guess to summarise I placed an importance in maintaining troop numbers, gradually wore down enemies and took advantage of lucky breaks.

[Martok]

I think you need luck too though

With the HRE, that often is the case. I don't play as the Germans that often, but almost every time I have, I've had to hold on for dear life the first 10-20 years and hope I don't get ganged up on by too many factions at once. Once my provinces are built up somewhat and I can churn out a decent number of troops, life starts to get easier for me.

I also agree the "French option" is generally the best one to take -- their lands are decent, and are often pre-occupied with the English. I discovered, however, that my *favorite* choice is to expand south over the Alps. There are of course enormous risks involved (attacking over mountains, the threat of excommunication, etc.), but the lands of northern Italy are wealthy enough that they often make up for those risks.

(That said, I don't really recommend it, unless you're sure you can pull it off. )

Can't find how to quote in this forum

On the bottom right of each post is a "QUOTE" tab. All you have to do is click on it.

[Derfasciti]

It seems that any Scandanavian county, but especially Norway can be somewhat difficult to play. Expansion into the rest of Scandanvia will be hard but early expansion is pretty necessarry as eventually your military will outweigh any possible income you can make from one or two provinces.

[Kavhan Isbul]

It seems that any Scandanavian county, but especially Norway can be somewhat difficult to play. Expansion into the rest of Scandanvia will be hard but early expansion is pretty necessarry as eventually your military will outweigh any possible income you can make from one or two provinces.

Unfortunately with Norway it is way too easy. The Swedish always start by building a boat, so you can quickly produce more troops than them, plus your heir matures a year earlier if I am not mistaken. Just invade, and they will vanish without a fight.

The Danes are pretty easy, only the Swedes are somewhat harder to play. The trick is to invade your Scandinavian neighbors, as it is next to impossible to establish a foothold on the Southern and Eastern shores of the Baltic.