An American's view of 'The Troubles'

[Don Corleone]

What follows is my attempt to reconcile the viewpoint of many Americans of Catholic denomination, Irish by descent, have of the Ulster situation. I am no expert on Irish history and welcome corrections, enlightenment and the rest. I think for the purposes of this thread, we should all recognize and understand that the history we think we know is probably not 100% accurate. Where somebody raises a point we view to be incorrect, let's stick to debate on facts, not harsh words or personal attacks.

I was born and raised in an Catholic-American household in a small suburb of Boston. Dad was from an Italian enclave (North End), Mom was from one of the Irish enclaves (Brookline). (I was actually born in the city and lived there until I was 5). This was ground-zero for Americans of Irish descent (from here on out referred to as AOID, we're not Irish). My mother's family, every last one, was deeply imbued with the AOID view of the Troubles, i.e. the civil unrest in Northern Ireland. Like most young Catholic kids my age, I grew up thinking the British to be solely responsible and a detestable lot (sorry EA, Slyspy, et. al.) and felt bad that the poor, noble Catholics in Ulster were being oppressed by the invading British and their turncoat allies, the Irish Protestants.

Then a funny thing happened one day. I took an Irish literature course. The professor, from county Mayo mind you, spent the first two weeks of the class digging into history, so that we would have some perspective on what we were reading. And lo, the scales fell from my eyes. I am not about to play apologist for the British, the Orange order, the IRA, the IRB or pretty much anyone. I will however do my best to offer my view of the Troubles, for those who like me were raised in the mythology, and have yet to make the startling realization that at the end of the day, all were to blame.

-First, and foremost, and this is where so many Americans have a hard time:
English does not equal British!!! England does not equal the UK!!! Aka: The political history (I'll save the religion for later...) is rather complicated, but don't forget, in 1776, 1/3 of OUR nation took up arms as loyal subjects of the crown, and they viewed themselves every bit as 'American' as those fighting for independence.

-Second, the UK has a long and proud tradition of defending the rights of its citizens, regardless of where they reside, and regardless of the threats they face. In the case of Ulster, the British probably would have been happy to give the whole thing over to the Republic of Ireland in the early 70's. There's only one problem... a majority of those residing in Ulster wanted to remain part of the Union. The rest of the UK, while not desiring to get mired in a guerilla war, decided they must do what they must and protect the loyal subjects of the crown that were asking for protection (and ~51% of the population was asking for protection).

-Third, the English did not invade Northern Ireland. It had been held under the English monarchy since the days of the Normans. Were the Normans English? Well, they came from vikings, and they spoke French. The resident anglo-saxons certainly didn't welcome them as long-lost cousins. My point is that the 'invasion' dates back to a time before nationhood. So, how did Northern Ireland come to be? In the 1920 agreement hammered out by Michael Collins, the counties that voted to become part of the Republic left and formed the Republic of Ireland. The counties that voted to remain part of the Union stayed in the Union. This wasn't a matter of 'English ownership', no more than Connecticut owns Georgia. In fact, the British in allowing the ROI to form, showed a good deal more lattitude than the USA's government had 60 years prior.

-Now, there were two factions in the early ROI: there were those who believed in the compromise (under Michael Collins) and those who believed the entire island must move as one (Eamon DeValera's gang), all stay or all leave, and to them, it was all leave. And upon the declaration of the formation of the ROI, Ireland began it's first days of independence with a terrible, bloody, vicious civil war that pitted friends against friends, and literally brothers against brothers. The English actually played almost no role in this, this was Irish Catholic Republicans killing Irish Catholic Republicans. In the end, De Valera's side won, mainly due to the death of Michael Collins. There's some speculation that De Valera arranged for Collin's murder under the auspices of a peace negotation, but the evidence either way just isn't there. My point is, the Irish were fighting themselves from the get go over the issue of Ulster, and there's plenty of blame to be laid on both sides, Hollywood's opinion aside. However, the ROI adopted an official policy of seeking unification with Ulster. They were not however prepared to take military action to see it happen, they mainly sat back and made some strongly worded statements occassionally, usually come election time.

Now, the whole religious question...
How did Protestants wind up in Ulster?

-Many of them chose to convert to Anglicanism (known as the Church of Ireland within Ireland), in the days of Henry VIII and Elizabeth.
-Many were transplated Scots that were put there by the government of the UK with the idea that perhaps mixing the Scots and the Irish would settle both populations (much the same way mixing nitrogen and glycerine makes a nice soothing cocktail).
-And yes, Cromwell forcibly converted a bunch during the days of the English Civil War. But one has to realize, what happened in Ireland in the days of "To Hell or To Connacht" was on par, no worse no better than what was going on in England itself. To come out on the losing side in that war, to be a royalist town behind parlimentarian lines or vice versa, even for a few weeks, was a death sentence.

My point in all of this? The Protestants in Ulster are every bit as Irish as the Catholics there are. Ireland is a republic, yes, but it's also a cultural identity, regardless of one's political affinities. To claim that the Unionists aren't Irish is unfair. You can (and should) say that they're not Republicans, but that's not the same thing at all. One refers to a people, the other refers to a current government.

Typically, Protestants have tended to be Unionists and Catholics have tended to be Republicans. But some of the leading figures in the movement for Irish independence were in fact Protestant. Do a Wiki search on Wolfetone and tell me if you starting to get the picture. So the simple little fairy tale that we were told, that the English enslaved Ireland and stole Ulster away and robbed and tormented the Catholics... it's not so much untrue as very limited in scope and long outdated.

[ShadesPanther]

Overall fairly accurate encompassing most of the main points regarding the History of the Island of Ireland.
But, as with everything else in life it is a very very complex situation that sadly many people fail to grasp.

I will watch with interest.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

My point in all of this? The Protestants in Ulster are every bit as Irish as the Catholics there are. Ireland is a republic, yes, but it's also a cultural identity, regardless of one's political affinities. To claim that the Unionists aren't Irish is unfair. You can (and should) say that they're not Republicans, but that's not the same thing at all. One refers to a people, the other refers to a current government.

In the other thread that was my point. Their all Irish so the British are not protecting their citizens unlless you consider all Irish to be British. This truly as you say is where we americans get confused. What exactly is The British? Is it the English? Their system is so damn confusing.

[Boyar Son]

British is some one from the British isles.

English is someone from the country England.

[Grey_Fox]

British = English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, the Falklands and so on as they are all part of the Union. The fact that some people may not want to be British is besides the point - they are until they aren't.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

British = English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, the Falklands and so on as they are all part of the Union. The fact that some people may not want to be British is besides the point - they are until they aren't.

Its still very confusing. Most americans think that British = English as they are the real seat of power and started the whole British thing. The rest of you poor souls are just semi independent nations it looks to me

[Don Corleone]

In the other thread that was my point. Their all Irish so the British are not protecting their citizens unlless you consider all Irish to be British. This truly as you say is where we americans get confused. What exactly is The British? Is it the English? Their system is so damn confusing.

There is an entire group of Irish people that are citizens of the United Kingdom (not England) that wish to remain citizens of the United Kingdom. Their fellow citizens within the UK did their best to help see that their fellow citizens rights were protected.

Basically, think of Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh as a person from the areas of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales for a second (forget the political construct of nations for a second). In American translation, let's try an applachian hillbilly, a Great Plains farmer, a pacific surfer and a rocky mountain lumberjack. They're from different areas too, right? But they form one political union and all are citizens of the United States. Notice I did not use states explicitly. States are political entities and there is no political entity of 'England'. It's a cultural-geographic area, not a political reality (at least not at this time).

Now, the United Kingdom would be the equivalent of the United States. People from these various areas formed into a political union. Like us, they didn't want to lose their unique culture, so they kept the idea of being Irish, being English, being Scottish and being Welsh, but politically, they are united under in one kingdom, with one parliament and one monarch.

One of those groups decided they wanted out. Only not all of those people wanted out. Those that wanted to stay were concentrated in one area. So the political union (the UK) came together and came up with a compromise: those that lived in an area where a majority wanted to leave the union could. But those who lived in areas where the majority wanted to stay in the union could as well, more or less.

In American terms, imagine if Lincoln had granted the CSA it's independence, but insisted that Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, where a majority were in favor of federalism, had to stay in the United States. Now, imagine that the CSA is sympathetic to the slave holders in those three states that want to join the CSA, but they don't actually make a war with the USA to break them off. And then, the CSA supporters in those 3 states (who are a very large minority at the time) decide to start a guerilla war to drive the US army out. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the best I can come up with.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There is an entire group of Irish people that are citizens of the United Kingdom (not England) that wish to remain citizens of the United Kingdom. Their fellow citizens within the UK did their best to help see that their fellow citizens rights were protected.

Well first off you claim everyone in Ulster is Irish .I guess thats not really so then.

2.4 Northern Ireland

Ireland was long considered a de facto province of England, a colonial possession dominated politically and militarily by its more powerful neighbour to the east. The English divided Ireland into counties for administrative purposes, introduced English law and established a Parliament in England and Ireland in 1297, within which only the Anglo-Irish were represented. By the fourteenth century Irish discrimination by the English had prompted widespread protests, which had resulted in a revival of the Irish language, law and culture, particularly as English power was seen to diminish. Yet, the recognition of Henry VIII as King of Ireland in 1541 led to the confiscation of monastic property and the isolation of would be rebels, many of whom had their lands confiscated. The beginnings of the Plantation of Ulster, the pronounced migration of Scots to the northern counties of Ireland, Ulster, dates from the beginning of the seventeenth century. Thus Ulster became a province dominated by Protestant, Scottish planters, while the native Irish, continuing to claim allegiance to the proscribed Catholic Church, became landless and displaced by the colonisers. The Plantation of Ulster can be considered as the starting point of an historical process which has resulted in the contemporary ‘troubles’ between Unionist and Republican, Protestant and Catholic..

It may not have been an invasion but it was certainly a hostile takeover. This is what I was always taught.

LINK

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

In the other thread that was my point. Their all Irish so the British are not protecting their citizens unlless you consider all Irish to be British. This truly as you say is where we americans get confused. What exactly is The British? Is it the English? Their system is so damn confusing.

I don't why it should be confusing-just think of it in terms of states. The UK is just like The US, except instead of 50 states we have 4-England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Calling me, a Welshman, English, is as inaccurate as calling someone from New York State a Texan.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't why it should be confusing-just think of it in terms of states. The UK is just like The US, except instead of 50 states we have 4-England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Calling me, a Welshman, English, is as inaccurate as calling someone from New York State a Texan.

Well you almost make sense. However if you call either a New Yorker or a Texan an American they probably wont get upset. Im sure there are many more Irishmen who dont like being reffered to as British. Isnt the reality that England conquered all those around her and then gave them independence to one degree or another? How long did it take the Irish to accept that they were British. Seems to me there has been a lot of screaming and crying over this matter. I wonder if the Irish would like to be a truly independent nation? What percentage of Irish would favor total independence?

[Grey_Fox]

The Republic is totally independent. Northern Ireland on the other hand operates under a devoluted government, and everyone in NI is British. Nationalists there may not want to remain British, but the other half (and it is a 50/50 split about) are Unionists and wish to remain British.

[ajaxfetish]

Do people in the UK then think of Northern Ireland as part of Britain? The official name is the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, right? I always thought you'd be either Irish (from the island of Ireland) or British (from the island of Great Britain). Anyone from Wales, England, or Scotland would be British, those from Northern Ireland part of the UK but not of Britain. Am I misunderstanding it?

Ajax

[Grey_Fox]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Then there's also the overseas territories such as the Falklands and Gibraltar.

Britain itself is the island that is made up of England, Scotland and Wales. The British Isles are made up of Britain and Ireland as well as the few hundred small islands dotted around both.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do people in the UK then think of Northern Ireland as part of Britain? The official name is the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, right? I always thought you'd be either Irish (from the island of Ireland) or British (from the island of Great Britain). Anyone from Wales, England, or Scotland would be British, those from Northern Ireland part of the UK but not of Britain. Am I misunderstanding it?

Ill second that.

[RabidGibbon]

Cue Pedantic interruption

Originally posted by Gawain of Orkney

How long did it take the Irish to accept that they were British.

My understanding of the terminology being used here has always been that British is a geographical term, meaning someone from the British Isles. The two main islands in this archipelago are Great Britain and Eire.

Its like calling the United States of America, America. Call a Canadian American and he'll tell you he's Canadian, but he's from North America, and henceforth can be accurately called an American. Or tell someone from England he's European - he'll deny it till his last breath, but any atlas will show you the truth of the matter.

The cause of contention was being a member of the United Kingdom, and a subject of that most terrible of tyrants, Elizabeth II. Although, god willing the recent peace agreement wil hold and they'll be no more troubles in the British Isles.

EDIT: Whoops, post mades whilst typing have rendered this obsolete.

[Slyspy]

The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain refers to primarily to the largest of the British Isles, in which we find England, Wales and Scotland. However it is also used as an alternative to the UK and also a catch-all term in which case it would include our few remaining overseas territories (wherein the Great takes a sort of Imperial meaning rather than simply meaning "the biggest bit").

Northern Ireland is certainly part of the UK, although sometimes we who are not Irish wonder whether it has been worth the hassle!

As for the population of Northern Ireland, well, they are Irish. However they are also British. In fact a staunch Ulsterman would consider himself British before being Irish, and a Republican vice versa. The culture may be Irish but the nationality, you see, is British.

[ShadesPanther]

I will aslo Point out that People living in Northern Ireland are entitled to both British and Irish Citizenship or whichever one you are preferential to.

The Unionists see themselves as British (Even though they live on the Island of Ireland and are technically Irish but that is swept under the carpet ) as in a member of the UK. Nationalists see themselves as Irish Citizens and members of the Republic of Ireland.

The whole issue of British and British Isles is confusing, but generally Great Britain is seen as the main Island comprising England, Wales and Scotland.

It may not have been an invasion but it was certainly a hostile takeover. This is what I was always taught.

It was a hostile takeover, but so was everything else throughout time. This occured not long after The Thirteen Colonies got planted and kicked out the Indians.
Life was different then, a main rule is never to apply today's morals to eras past.

The decendants have as much right to Live in Northern Ireland as the decendants of the Indiginous Irish.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It was a hostile takeover, but so was everything else throughout time

Well Im a firm believer in that.

Its like calling the United States of America, America. Call a Canadian American and he'll tell you he's Canadian, but he's from North America, and henceforth can be accurately called an American. Or tell someone from England he's European - he'll deny it till his last breath, but any atlas will show you the truth of the matter.

Or a Jew from Israel a Palestinian?

[RabidGibbon]

Originally posted by Gawain of Orkney

Or a Jew from Israel a Palestinian?

Touche! Assigning people an attitude/posistion/label because of geography is always a daft thing to do.

Politicians though have always had a hard time seeing that, which is why the crop of 19th century european empires died hard (to plagarise Bruce Willis).

[InsaneApache]

Just to confuse our ex-colonial cousins a bit more, scratch under the surface and you will find more divisions.

I was born in Lancashire. That makes me a Lancastrian. However, the city I was born in, Manchester, also makes me a Mancunian. Now, Lancashire is in the north of England, so I consider myself to be a Northener.

So to take stock.

I am first a Mancunian. Then a Lancastrian. Then a Northerner.....and then an Englishman. After all that kurfuffle, I am British.

Trust me, living in Yorkshire, they, (the Tykes), think exactly the same.

Still when my missionary work is complete I will be allowed back over the border.

Ask anyone from the UK where they come from and I'll put money on it that they identify with their place of birth/residence first and county second, then the country.

[English assassin]

Top thread DC

I'll return to the whole citizenship confusion in a second, but, on the troubles, there is a bit of recent history I would add.

Ulster was relatively peaceful from partition until the late 60s, had its own devloved parliament, and generally did not bother those of us on the bigger Island very much. Unfortunately, though, it should have done. The protestant majoriy used their majority to discriminate very severely indeed against the catholics, building up resentment. This, IIRC, lead to civil disobedience, which was seized on by one Rev Ian Paisley (and may there be an afterlife, just to wipe the smile from his face) to stir up protestant anger against the catholics in return.

Its a generally forgotten fact that troops were first deployed on the streets to prtotect the catholics from the protestants, as the police and civil institutions of NI could not be trusted to do so. In stead, they could be trusted to beat catholics up very severely, whenever they suggested alient popish practices like one man, one vote.

Alas, we didn't know as much then as we do now about using troops to quell civil disobedience, a few lads known as the IRA saw the chance to provoke things, and the rest, as they say, is history.

So, to be honest, although I am certainly happy to hear about ancient Irish history and the terrible things Cromwell did, where I think the UK is truly to blame is not sorting out Stormont (The NI legislature) between 1921 and 1960 something. The fact is the catholic population did not get much from the UK state and understandably looked elsewhere. You'd have thought we would have learnt from the potato famine but apparently not. But it was benign neglect rather than active malovelence.

As for the situation now, personally I think its daft to have one small island with two states and imagine they will merge at some point. I certainly don't regard my virility as an Englishman as depending on the six counties remaining in the union. (see my views on Scotland, raised to the power of ten)

Confusing citizenship bit: in a sense the UK and the republic have joint citizenship. Irish citizens have never been subject to any restrictions on moving to or working within the UK, and they have full rights to vote. (And I assume to stand in elections, although I'd have to check.) I believe the situation is the same in Ireland but I am not sure.

which is why the crop of 19th century european empires died hard (to plagarise Bruce Willis).

Historical digression on/

Actually, you are plaigiarising Colonel Inglis, commanding officer of the 57th regiment of foot, at the battle of Albuhera in 1811. Shot in the thick of the battle he stayed with the regiment, calling on them to hold their position and shouting, "Die hard the 57th, die hard!", until he died himself. They held the position, but with casualties of 420 out of the 570 men in the ranks and 20 out of the 30 officers. The regiment was nicknamed the Die Hards by the rest of Wellington's army, and subsequently the army as whole.

No disrespect to Bruce but I think the 57th were harder than him.

/Historical digression off

[Petrus]

-Now, there were two factions in the early ROI: there were those who believed in the compromise (under Michael Collins) and those who believed the entire island must move as one (Eamon DeValera's gang), all stay or all leave, and to them, it was all leave. And upon the declaration of the formation of the ROI, Ireland began it's first days of independence with a terrible, bloody, vicious civil war that pitted friends against friends, and literally brothers against brothers. The English actually played almost no role in this, this was Irish Catholic Republicans killing Irish Catholic Republicans. In the end, De Valera's side won, mainly due to the death of Michael Collins. There's some speculation that De Valera arranged for Collin's murder under the auspices of a peace negotation, but the evidence either way just isn't there. My point is, the Irish were fighting themselves from the get go over the issue of Ulster, and there's plenty of blame to be laid on both sides, Hollywood's opinion aside. However, the ROI adopted an official policy of seeking unification with Ulster. They were not however prepared to take military action to see it happen, they mainly sat back and made some strongly worded statements occassionally, usually come election time.

If i remember correctly, the opposants to the partition lost the civil war and Collin's side won it. De Valera was latter elected president but this had nothing to do with civil war.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Just to confuse our poor American Bretheren further:

I was born in Devon but I am not a Devonian because by Parrents come from Hampshire and Surrey. Those in the South West are generally looked down upon as backwards yocals and it is not profitable to be too closely associated with the region in peoples minds.

On Topic: So far we've kept it simple, but the truth is that the Irish are all British. They just aren't all Crown Subjects (now more commonly termed citizens of the United Kingdom.)

As to the idea that England "invaded" or even "took over" the other countries this is true of Wales (never unifed beyond the life of one man and never a country) and Ireland but in fact the current monarchs are decended from the Scottish Royal House and the previous dynasty was in fact of WELSH lineage with no real connection to the Plantagenets at all.

The big thing to remember though is that we are a Union, not a country.

[Tribesman]

Nice going Don
A little thing though , people keep writing Ulster when they mean Northern Ireland .
Ulster contains 9 counties N.I. contains 6 .
which leads to .......

One of those groups decided they wanted out. Only not all of those people wanted out. Those that wanted to stay were concentrated in one area. So the political union (the UK) came together and came up with a compromise: those that lived in an area where a majority wanted to leave the union could. But those who lived in areas where the majority wanted to stay in the union could as well, more or less.

which was a bit of a ballsup , more or less since the more or less included an economic provision which was used against some majorities wishes . Counties Tyrone and Fermanagh both had clear outright nationalist/republican majorities , most of Co.Armagh did as well , large areas of Co.Derry also had natoinalist/republican majorities including Derry city .
Northern Ireland could not be economically viable without these areas so "majority" wishes were overruled . Doing so led to lots and lots of problems(to put it mildly) .
Which (to veer ever so slightly off topic)people should consider next time they voice support for an independant Kurdistan ,given that the oil fields that such a state needs to be economically viable just happen to be in areas where they are not a majority .

[InsaneApache]

Partition has never worked.

[gaelic cowboy]

The idea of being British was invented by King James I to legitimize his crown after Queen Elizabeth I died he had been James VI of Scotland so he came up with idea of hey guys sure were all British and I am King of it ta da.

[Antagonist]

If i remember correctly, the opposants to the partition lost the civil war and Collin's side won it. De Valera was latter elected president but this had nothing to do with civil war.

Indeed, militarily the Irish Civil War was a fairly comprehensive victory for the Irish Free State (the Pro-Treaty forces) and in fact the military leaders of both sides (Michael Collins and Liam Lynch) were both killed in the closing stages of the fighting. The actual number of casualites and combatants was low by the standards of other contemporary civil wars (much like the preceding War of Independence/Anglo-Irish War, it was very much a war of guerilla actions, assassinations, and urban fighting rather than large-scale pitched battles) Subsequently much of the Republican (Anti-Treaty) political wing, Sinn Fein, broke ranks and became the Fianna Fail part, led by de Valera, which did a lot better as a political party.

The wiki article on the conflict is pretty good as far as the facts go as far as I can see. Check it.

Also, the modern Republic of Ireland did not instantly come into being in the 1920's. A very simplified course of events would be that the War of Indepencence/Anglo-Irish War ended with the Anglo-Irish Treaty, which was understandably complicated and vague, but the simplest way to describe it would be that it removed Ireland from the UK (and thus, the direct control of Westminster) and made it more-or-less a British Dominion, like Canada or Australia. Its own parliament, generally control of its own affairs except for military and foriegn policy, the Monarch still head of state etc. However, they also provided the vocal Unionists in the North-East (There were unionists throughout Ireland of course, but only there, and in some isolated political seats such as Trinity College Dublin, were they a majority) with the right to opt-out and remain part of the UK, which they immediately did. The Civil War was not fought over the issue of Northern Ireland at all (no-one in "the South" believed the Ulster Unionists could be brought round to joining an all-Ireland state, though unfortunately some advocated violent coercion) but over whether the rest of Ireland should accept the Treaty and thus become a Dominion, or fight on for absolute independence (an oath of loyalty to the British King particularly rankled) The Pro-Treaty victory meant the end of fighting against the UK government, and what is now the Republic of Ireland was the Irish Free State, a British Dominion, for the next 25 years or so. They more or less ignored Britain during this time however, and dismantled the links with Britain piece by piece. De Valera, then Taoiseach (Prime Minister) created drafted a new Constitution in the 1937 which defined the nation more clearly and further distanced the Free State (Saorstát Éireann as he would have preferred) from the UK. The Republic of Ireland itself only came into being in 1949, and this final "divorce" with the UK was surprisingly amicable (George VI's telegram to the Irish president should be on the internet somewhere, I can't find it, but the language is interesting, a bit "good luck in the big wide world chaps sorry it didn't work out eh what")

The history of Ireland is pretty damned convoluted really, but that's a very good post DC. I know as an Irish person it can be awkward (and somewhat embarassing) to hear some Irish-Americans talking as if the whole country is under occupation from oppressive British garrison troops. Or serious news coverage of Northern Ireland describe Sinn Fein as "the Catholics" and the DUP as "the Protestants" as if it's the bloody Thirty Years' War. I'm glad to see people taking an interest in Irish history and attempting to understand the true story, which of course does not fit neatly into the world-view of one "side" or other.

Antagonist

[Pannonian]

Also, the modern Republic of Ireland did not instantly come into being in the 1920's. A very simplified course of events would be that the War of Indepencence/Anglo-Irish War ended with the Anglo-Irish Treaty, which was understandably complicated and vague, but the simplest way to describe it would be that it removed Ireland from the UK (and thus, the direct control of Westminster) and made it more-or-less a British Dominion, like Canada or Australia. Its own parliament, generally control of its own affairs except for military and foriegn policy, the Monarch still head of state etc.

And they had their say when there was a change in that head of state in 1937.

Abdication of H.M. King Edward VIII: Telegrams sent to UK High Commissioners in Commonwealth countries

Asked Dominions for informal views on the alternatives. Wrote similarly to President of Irish Free State. Summary at folio 3 - all reluctantly favour Abdication. Irish Free State initially in favour of marriage without succession but only on misunderstanding of position in the UK as regards divorce.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Of course even today the UK and Ireland are not entirely seperate, just ask Banquo who signed his commission.

[Strike For The South]

wait...when did we start letting catholics in? Its funny Don, My family settled in the North Shore over 400 years ago as ardent anti-catholics, I guess we nevr understood the whole funny hat thing. Anyway they were as WASP as WASP can get I mean masnory know nothings the works. So all of you immagrants can probably trace your troubles back to me (Im not gonna aplogize) Now its ok seeing as my assorted aunts and uncles have maried out of Northern Euro-Protastent heritage (including me mum) The point is I've seen Brookline and South BOston and it really a trip. Pretty cool.