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Thread: Small question: What armour is this?

  1. #1

    Default Small question: What armour is this?

    Hello.

    I'll start off my first post with a quick question. As in the title, what type of armour is this? Apparently, I can't post URLs on my first post, so it will be in my next post.

    While I'm waiting for the ability to post agian, for those of you who are intimately familiar with the game, I'm talking about the armour that Cretan Archers wear. It's a type of quilted armour, brownish in colour, worn over a white tunic.
    Last edited by Dwin; 05-23-2007 at 01:51.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Here we go:



    I've seen it around, but I haven't been able to get a name for it. I'm thinking it might be a spolas, but I don't know for sure.
    Last edited by Dwin; 05-23-2007 at 02:12.

  3. #3
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?


    This ? Looks mostly like quilted armour to me. Could have an outer layer of leather too, going by the colour.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  4. #4
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Not necessarily, linen can assume that colour naturally. The white cuirasses you see on the greeks were often bleached to get that effect.



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  5. #5
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    ...or covered with a bleached layer, I know. I was just hypothesizing based on the somewhat uniform shade of brown that reminds me a lot of many shoes I've seen.

    Speaking of which, is there any reason you couldn't use leather for the outermost layer anyway ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  6. #6
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    I guess it is possible. But I've only heard of armour made like that during the middle ages in Iberia where they'd essentially have a leather bag in the form of a long shirt with padded linen inside. Good for low intensity warfare and arrows.

    Then again I'm no expert in Hellenic matters, though curious on all forms of warfare.



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  7. #7
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    I would be very interested to get a source for that form of armour!

    It is a hot discussion wether the Greeks used leather armour. For me the result of the discussion ist clearly "yes" but some may disagree. At least some examples of the spolas were made from leather. Another question would be wether the leather spolas were the normal tube-and-yoke armours so often depicted in the pictural sources or wether this form of armour was exclusively/mostly made from layered linen.

    And now we come to the armour of the EB Cretan archers. I never saw something like this in the sources but I think it would be a good and simple form for a padded leather or layered linen armour (btw: how would it be donned and closed? just get into it like a pullover?). To be honest when I first heard about the spolas I imagined something like that stuff. So a pictural evidence would be very valuable.

    The colour of the armour is a bit to dark for natural linen which is mostly light grey, seldom light brown-grey. But the same for leather; normally leather would be brighter, but that depends on the animal and the process of leather-making.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
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    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
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    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  8. #8
    Member Member Shifty_GMH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Your question made me a little curious too. Don't know how accurate this is, but it was interesting. It talks about Cretan Archers in Roman Service.


    Cretan Archers in Roman Service courtesy of www.romanarmy.com
    Last edited by Shifty_GMH; 05-23-2007 at 13:54.



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  9. #9
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Our Hellenistic boys have said several times that Linthorax (linen armour) was often covered with a layer of leather. This would also increase weather resistance.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by geala
    text
    It's not a spolas though. The spolas was weaved, not qulted...looked like this:

    https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1..._in_spolas.jpg

    https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...__Peltasts.jpg

  11. #11

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    Our Hellenistic boys have said several times that Linthorax (linen armour) was often covered with a layer of leather. This would also increase weather resistance.
    There's absolutely no primary evidence for this.

    That, and other quilted armours like it, are not based on any primary Hellenistic evidence, and is purely conjectural.

  12. #12
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    I wonder about the decisive primary evidence against though.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  13. #13
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Didn't this guy leave already?

    Problem here is he uses deductive logic only when it suits his views.



    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    I wonder about the decisive primary evidence against though.
    None. But then again, there's no decisive primary evidence against any other kind of armour being worn, so if you use that as criteria, you can reconstruct just about anything you like.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Its cos he loves you so much, he can't stay away, be fun to see this one develop :)

  16. #16
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinPanzer
    None. But then again, there's no decisive primary evidence against any other kind of armour being worn, so if you use that as criteria, you can reconstruct just about anything you like.
    Given the dearth of primary evidence around these things in general, your vendetta against conjecture has always slightly puzzled me.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  17. #17
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    MP, hello, haven't seen you for a bit.

    Let me get things straight:

    First, what are the objectionable items? I'd like to be sure what this discussion is actually about first.

    Is it leather at all? Leather over a lino-thorax? Leather combined with padded or quilted linen? Padded or quilted linen at all? I'd like to know your position, MP, before giving a response, though I hope Urnamma will be available to reply, since he works on Hellenistic armor.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  18. #18

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Given the dearth of primary evidence around these things in general, your vendetta against conjecture has always slightly puzzled me.
    I don't have a vendetta against conjecture; for a mod like this, conjecture is necessary. However, I am against baseless conjecture.

    MP, hello, haven't seen you for a bit.

    Let me get things straight:

    First, what are the objectionable items? I'd like to be sure what this discussion is actually about first.

    Is it leather at all? Leather over a lino-thorax? Leather combined with padded or quilted linen? Padded or quilted linen at all? I'd like to know your position, MP, before giving a response, though I hope Urnamma will be available to reply, since he works on Hellenistic armor.
    Hi paullus, hope everything is well with the mod.

    The objection is to quilted textile armour like this:

    https://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?...tarmouraj0.jpg

    I have no idea what kind of textile that is intended to be, but I object to the fact that a quilted jerkin has been reconstructed here unlike anything which can be found in iconographic evidence from the Hellenistic period. I object, in this case, merely to the form of the armour, and not whatever material it may have been constructed from.

    P.S. You mentioned before an image from Nick Sekunda's "Hellenistic Infantry Reforms" book showing a thureophoros wearing greaves. I never did get the specific image you were referring to.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    I've seen such cross pattern at least on one of vases, cant post photo as you can't make them in Polish museums. Vase was displayed in Wilanów.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS
    I've seen such cross pattern at least on one of vases, cant post photo as you can't make them in Polish museums. Vase was displayed in Wilanów.
    When did this vase date to? Did that kind of armour have pteruges?

  21. #21
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    sent an email to ya, MP, sorry I'd forgotten about that image.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  22. #22

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by paullus
    sent an email to ya, MP, sorry I'd forgotten about that image.
    Were you referring to this one?


  23. #23
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    is that not the image i emailed to you?
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  24. #24

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    So...I guess this type of armour doesn't even have a name? Like...quiltothorax...

  25. #25

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    well i dont know but judging by the little bit i know and from other games id have to say its linen


  26. #26

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwin
    So...I guess this type of armour doesn't even have a name? Like...quiltothorax...
    No, it doesn't have a name, and there's no way to tell what it was made of. The only evidence for any sort of quilted armour, almost entirely from red figure vases, stopped appearing around the middle of the 4th C. BC. This evidence consists of iconographic representations of armour with criss-cross patterns on it. These could be attempts to represent scales, quilting, or some sort of stitched-on design, or they could be something else entirely that we're just not aware of. Even these, though, are otherwise exactly like the tube-and-yoke cuirass in form, having pteruges and shoulder yokes, and nothing like the jerkin represented here on the Cretan archers.

  27. #27
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    This was written by Urnamma in the internal forums. Sorry this took so long to get out to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urnamma
    Both leather and linen are acceptable coverings for the linothorax.

    Fragments of quilted armor have been found on Rhodes ~350 B.C. (many layers of cloth stitched together in a warrior grave)

    A much more substantial find is mycanaean in origin, from Crete. There are also Ptolemaic stelae and terra cotta figures showing quilted linen. Furthermore, As MP seemed to point out, there are red figure vases with quilted patterns.

    The agora in Athens provides us another scrap, this one more closely Hellenistic, of layered linen, though very small.

    This same sort of armor appears in the Greek east, on Parthians, and especially in Graeco-Bactria and India, in several representations on several pieces.
    Also, it appears that the quilted armor seen on the Cretans was also used by the Persian military.

    I hope this answers your question, Dwin.

  28. #28

    Wink Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    its obiviosly a secret elven cloak known only to cretans duh lol =p


  29. #29
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwin
    It's not a spolas though. The spolas was weaved, not qulted...looked like this:

    https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1..._in_spolas.jpg

    https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...__Peltasts.jpg

    1. Do you have a source that the depicted garment is a spolas and that it is quilted? Or is it an interpretation based on other pictures which show something similar worn just around the waist (so a defensive function is presumable)? It could also be just a heavy woolen chiton.

    Unlike this it is said that (at least a kind of) spolas was made of leather (Pollux, Onomasticon: I learned this recently on RAT myself ).


    2. My question is: could that spolas be the tube-and-yoke armour depicted on the vases? I don't feel comfortable with this. So, was it just a (leather or linen) jerkin without the shoulder flaps, like the armour of the Cretan archers? I would like to interprete a spolas as a loose jerkin, worn by some warriors on vases (i'm not at home and cannot post it - one example of a Greek archer with it is depicted in Conolly's Greece and Rome at War).

    The material is not so important, may it be leather, linen or both. It is the form of the armour which is important, as meinPanzer said (some posts following his post are rather strange... ).

    So again, is there a pictural source (the picture posted by meinPanzer I can not interpret) or not? If not, that is not a problem, but if a source exists, I would make a garment like that of the archers for myself.


    3. Never heard of the Rhodes find of quilted linen ~ 350 BC. That would be very important! Another evidence for linen armour in the classical period is not known to me and ~350 BC is quite near classical times. Is it published? And is it "sure" that it belongs to an armour? How many layers of linen were used? How was the stitching made?
    Last edited by geala; 05-27-2007 at 13:41.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
    Over the Hills and far away.
    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
    Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  30. #30

    Default Re: Small question: What armour is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by geala
    1. Do you have a source that the depicted garment is a spolas and that it is quilted? Or is it an interpretation based on other pictures which show something similar worn just around the waist (so a defensive function is presumable)? It could also be just a heavy woolen chiton.
    Um, I don't know, the few sources I've read say that it's just basically a thick, weaved tunic, used as body armour.

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