Small question: What armour is this?

[O'ETAIPOS]

No, it doesn't have a name, and there's no way to tell what it was made of. The only evidence for any sort of quilted armour, almost entirely from red figure vases, stopped appearing around the middle of the 4th C. BC. This evidence consists of iconographic representations of armour with criss-cross patterns on it.

MP, I think you know that during 4th century red figure vases started to disappear, with some of very bad style, and others super good, but with mithological/banquete scenes and extremaly rare.
Armour of any kind is extremely difficult to be found on vases from mid 4th century - this the reason why this type disappear also.

[MeinPanzer]

It's not a spolas though. The spolas was weaved, not qulted...looked like this:

https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1..._in_spolas.jpg

https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y1...__Peltasts.jpg

I missed this before, but no, I think Sekunda is wrong in identifying those clearly woven garments as being spolades. Pollux, in his Onomasticon, says this (VII.70):

The spolas is a thorax of leather, from
the shoulders attached, so that Xenophon says "and the spolas
instead of the thorax." Sophocles calls it Libyssan: "Libyssan spolas, a spotted hide."

Those could be dyed leather garments, I guess, but that seems unlikely. There is a good chance that the tube-and-yoke cuirass traditionally identified as the linothorax was actually the spolas.

Both leather and linen are acceptable coverings for the linothorax.

Fragments of quilted armor have been found on Rhodes ~350 B.C. (many layers of cloth stitched together in a warrior grave)

I've never heard of this before, but I'd be very curious how much cloth it was, how it was stitched together, and in what context it was uncovered in the grave. I think here we have to make a clear distinction between stitched textile armour and quilted stitched textile armour, which generally had some sort of padding inside the separate "compartments" (maybe some sewers could provide some better terminology) to allow for absorption of blows. It seems extremely likely that linothorakes/spolades were stitched together, but they weren't quilted, so unless this example clearly shows a quilting pattern, it's not evidence for quilted amour.

A much more substantial find is mycanaean in origin, from Crete.

The agora in Athens provides us another scrap, this one more closely Hellenistic, of layered linen, though very small.

I know of the couple of Mycenaean examples (the bit of a "greave" for instance, from Mycenae), including the fairly recently uncovered Theban example which apparently had edge binding. These were, however, simply layered linen, and not quilted. The same goes for the Athenian scrap- if it doesn't show any quilting pattern, it was probably just a scrap from a standard linothorax.

There are also Ptolemaic stelae and terra cotta figures showing quilted linen.

I'd be very curious what Ptolemaic stelae are being referred to here. And there is one terracotta figure which wears armour that could be some sort of quilted armour but could also be mail.

This same sort of armor appears in the Greek east, on Parthians, and especially in Graeco-Bactria and India, in several representations on several pieces.

From a later date, c. 1st C. AD and later.

MP, I think you know that during 4th century red figure vases started to disappear, with some of very bad style, and others super good, but with mithological/banquete scenes and extremaly rare.
Armour of any kind is extremely difficult to be found on vases from mid 4th century - this the reason why this type disappear also.

That's true, but we also have other iconographic sources from the 4th C. BC showing quilted armour being worn- Etruscan stuff, mainly.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't know much about them, but I know I can easily see examples of exactly this type of armor multiple times in the Persian armies Osprey. 5th and 4th centuries, and the same except for the pattern of stitches and color used by Egyptians in that same one. Acting like this is totally made up by EB or only from a millenia later or so sure seems like there are other motives at work here.

[MeinPanzer]

I don't know much about them, but I know I can easily see examples of exactly this type of armor multiple times in the Persian armies Osprey. 5th and 4th centuries, and the same except for the pattern of stitches and color used by Egyptians in that same one. Acting like this is totally made up by EB or only from a millenia later or so sure seems like there are other motives at work here.

Yes, and notice that those are from the 5th and 4th centuries BC, not the 3rd or later- this is what we are discussing here, not whether such armour was worn at all in ancient times. And even those earlier examples are different from the kind of armour EB has shown here, which has no pteruges or shoulder yokes.

[Watchman]

I think here we have to make a clear distinction between stitched textile armour and quilted stitched textile armour, which generally had some sort of padding inside the separate "compartments" (maybe some sewers could provide some better terminology) to allow for absorption of blows.

I'm not entirely certain, but I think your description of the "quilted" structure is a little odd here. AFAIK that could generally consist of virtually any sort of stuffing, be it proper sheets of cloth, rags, hay, paper, whatever, between an inner and outer layer of (usually) textile, which was then stitched to into the "compartement" pattern to keep the contents from moving around, and also the limit the loss of stuffing whenever a part of the item was cut (as only the contents of the individual "pockets" damaged could spill out).

Not that different from some of the methods still used to make winter clothes really, AFAIK.

Your description sounds like you're saying the individual "pockets" were filled separately, which doesn't really sound very sensible - if nothing else it'd leave the space between them protected by nothing more than the inner and outer layer plus the stitching, which hardly sounds like it would really stop arrows and suchlike all that well now does it ?

Side note: don't both the Pantodapoi/Machimoi Phalangitai and some types of light cavalry (Hippakontistai, maybe the Thracians) also wear quilted "vests" quite similar to that of the Cretans ? Some older Osprey books had pre-Alexandrian Persian cavalry wearing very similar protective articles IIRC, and I've seen it mentioned in passing somewhere that Alexander himself at some point took to using some type of "soft" cuirass of a Persian pattern...

[MeinPanzer]

I'm not entirely certain, but I think your description of the "quilted" structure is a little odd here. AFAIK that could generally consist of virtually any sort of stuffing, be it proper sheets of cloth, rags, hay, paper, whatever, between an inner and outer layer of (usually) textile, which was then stitched to into the "compartement" pattern to keep the contents from moving around, and also the limit the loss of stuffing whenever a part of the item was cut (as only the contents of the individual "pockets" damaged could spill out).

Not that different from some of the methods still used to make winter clothes really, AFAIK.

Your description sounds like you're saying the individual "pockets" were filled separately, which doesn't really sound very sensible - if nothing else it'd leave the space between them protected by nothing more than the inner and outer layer plus the stitching, which hardly sounds like it would really stop arrows and suchlike all that well now does it ?

Sorry, I described it poorly, but that's what I meant. What I'm trying to get across is that these examples of textile armour, if they actually are armour, would need to show some sign of a repeating geometric design stitched into it in order for it to qualify as quilted. Just having stitching on the seams, for instance, wouldn't be enough.

Side note: don't both the Pantodapoi/Machimoi Phalangitai and some types of light cavalry (Hippakontistai, maybe the Thracians) also wear quilted "vests" quite similar to that of the Cretans ? Some older Osprey books had pre-Alexandrian Persian cavalry wearing very similar protective articles IIRC, and I've seen it mentioned in passing somewhere that Alexander himself at some point took to using some type of "soft" cuirass of a Persian pattern...

Yes, there is plenty of evidence for the Achaemenid Persians employing at least some kind of quilted armour. However, this evidence disappears after the 4th C. BC. As for Alexander wearing a "soft" Persian cuirass, is that from a literary mention? Do you have a citation?

[Watchman]

Sorry, I described it poorly, but that's what I meant. What I'm trying to get across is that these examples of textile armour, if they actually are armour, would need to show some sign of a repeating geometric design stitched into it in order for it to qualify as quilted. Just having stitching on the seams, for instance, wouldn't be enough.

Depends a bit on what you mean by "geometric", but overall more or less yeah.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence for the Achaemenid Persians employing at least some kind of quilted armour. However, this evidence disappears after the 4th C. BC. As for Alexander wearing a "soft" Persian cuirass, is that from a literary mention? Do you have a citation?

Footnote in Sidnell's Warhorse. Lemme quote it in full. "Alexander himself seems to have swapped his composite linen and metal cuirass, depicted in the Issus Mosaic, for a thickly quilted Persian one captured at Issus. Plutarch, Alexander, translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert (London, 1973), c. 32."

Make what you will out of that, can't say I've read Plutarch myself.

[geala]

1. I don't think that a "quilted armour" has to consist of two sheets and a filling. "Quilting" (if I get it right in English) is a technique to stabilize different layers of material together. So a gambeson padded with some soft stuff which is fixed by stitching can be quilted, as well as a gambeson consisting of different layers of linen stitched together.


2. I cannot imagine that the frequently depicted tube-and-yoke armour shall be the spolas. Xenophons mentioning of thorakes and spolades, given to the horsemen and the slingers, must then be interpreted in that way that the spolades were given to the slingers. Of course this is possible. But it would be strange that slingers should wear the same armour so often worn by hoplites. The shoulder flaps could also be a hindrance for a slinger (that could be tested). I think the spolas was a plain leather or linen or leather/linen jerkin, used under the armour or sometimes alone.

The composite armour spread in use in the 6th c. BC if we can thrust the vase paintings. It has the normal tube-and-yoke form. Alkaios clearly speaks of "thorrakes neo lino". Writing this early in the 6th c. that is a good coincidence and a hint to the linen nature of the tube-and-yoke armour.

[Watchman]

1. I don't think that a "quilted armour" has to consist of two sheets and a filling. "Quilting" (if I get it right in English) is a technique to stabilize different layers of material together. So a gambeson padded with some soft stuff which is fixed by stitching can be quilted, as well as a gambeson consisting of different layers of linen stitched together.

Yeah, well, just to nitpick, but the examples you give still have something that can (and, when you think about it, must) be defined as the "innermost" and "outermost" layers. Whatever's between them is somewhat irrelevant in this regard, although the specifics may affect the item's actual performance as armour considerably.

I'm pretty sure "quilt" normally means a padded garment that has applied stitching above and beyond the seams and similar structural necessities, usually in order to keep the fillings (whatever they now are) in place.

[MeinPanzer]

Depends a bit on what you mean by "geometric", but overall more or less yeah.

I've only ever seen examples of armour quilted in geometric patterns in the past, but I guess they could just be repeating patterns.

Footnote in Sidnell's Warhorse. Lemme quote it in full. "Alexander himself seems to have swapped his composite linen and metal cuirass, depicted in the Issus Mosaic, for a thickly quilted Persian one captured at Issus. Plutarch, Alexander, translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert (London, 1973), c. 32."

Make what you will out of that, can't say I've read Plutarch myself.

Plutarch, Alexander 32.5:

"After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus."

So, no, there is no mention of quilting here, just a linothorax. I'm afraid Phil was mistaken with that quote.

1. I don't think that a "quilted armour" has to consist of two sheets and a filling. "Quilting" (if I get it right in English) is a technique to stabilize different layers of material together. So a gambeson padded with some soft stuff which is fixed by stitching can be quilted, as well as a gambeson consisting of different layers of linen stitched together.

I think there are a couple of definitions of quilting, ranging from very specialized to more general in meaning, but what I mean by quilting is this, taken from dictionary.com's definition:

5. To stitch together (two pieces of cloth and a soft interlining), usually in an ornamental pattern.

At any rate, let's not let this devolve into a debate over semantics. What I object to here is the recreation of a type of armour in use in the Hellenistic period which has a repeating stitched pattern over the majority of the body.

2. I cannot imagine that the frequently depicted tube-and-yoke armour shall be the spolas. Xenophons mentioning of thorakes and spolades, given to the horsemen and the slingers, must then be interpreted in that way that the spolades were given to the slingers. Of course this is possible. But it would be strange that slingers should wear the same armour so often worn by hoplites. The shoulder flaps could also be a hindrance for a slinger (that could be tested). I think the spolas was a plain leather or linen or leather/linen jerkin, used under the armour or sometimes alone.

I don't see why it would be impossible for slingers to wear cuirasses- the tube-and-yoke cuirass was, if we look at iconographic sources, apparently very flexible and the light armour par excellence in the Classical period. It's also obvious from the need that Thucydides felt to mention it that that occurrence was somewhat extraordinary.

The composite armour spread in use in the 6th c. BC if we can thrust the vase paintings. It has the normal tube-and-yoke form. Alkaios clearly speaks of "thorrakes neo lino". Writing this early in the 6th c. that is a good coincidence and a hint to the linen nature of the tube-and-yoke armour.

Yes, there is a period in the beginning of the T&Y (I'm just going to call it that from now on, instead of tube-and-yoke) that linen armour is also mentioned in literary sources. However, during the T&Y's heyday in Classical and Hellenistic iconographic sources, we hear almost nothing of linen armour, which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect, especially from those writers who were very familiar with their contemporary militaries, such as Thucydides and Polybius.

[Dwin]

Damn, I lost track of what this is all about.

What is the tube-and-yolk you're talking about? You mean like a linothorax type armour, with shoulder pads and such?

[MeinPanzer]

Damn, I lost track of what this is all about.

What is the tube-and-yolk you're talking about? You mean like a linothorax type armour, with shoulder pads and such?

The kind of armour seen in Greek art which has a "tube" torso which extends in the back into two "yokes" which can then be drawn down over the shoulders and secured. It is generally referred to (perhaps erroneously) as a linothorax.

[Watchman]

I've only ever seen examples of armour quilted in geometric patterns in the past, but I guess they could just be repeating patterns.

The Byzantines at one point favoured a pattern mostly resembling a kind of slate roof for example.

Plutarch, Alexander 32.5:

"After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus."

So, no, there is no mention of quilting here, just a linothorax. I'm afraid Phil was mistaken with that quote.

You may well have a point there, but... does "two-ply linen" automatically mean good ole 'lino, though ? Linen was, if I've understood correctly, the main material used in both forms of textile-based armour, and I don't think it would take too terrible a stretch of imagination to interpret the wording as referring to the inner- and outermost layer of a "soft" cuirass as easily as "lino"...?

Side note: didn't the Persians prefer to make their scale armour on a soft base whereas the Greeks favoured adding the metal bits to the relatively stiff linothorax ? Just checking.

[MeinPanzer]

You may well have a point there, but... does "two-ply linen" automatically mean good ole 'lino, though ? Linen was, if I've understood correctly, the main material used in both forms of textile-based armour, and I don't think it would take too terrible a stretch of imagination to interpret the wording as referring to the inner- and outermost layer of a "soft" cuirass as easily as "lino"...?

All that matters is that that passage does not, in fact, say that Alexander wears a "a thickly quilted Persian cuirass." It's a two-ply linen cuirass, and that's all we can take from that. The problem with interpreting it being two-ply with it being a quilted cuirass is that we simply don't necessarily know how many layers was average for a linothorax. Some have postulated that the T&Y cuirasses with a seam at either side of the front of the abdomen are made of a single layer of linen which was wrapped around the body twice, which would provide good protection but which would also afford the best flexibility. Now, this is purely conjecture, but it could mean that linothorakes were 2-ply.

Side note: didn't the Persians prefer to make their scale armour on a soft base whereas the Greeks favoured adding the metal bits to the relatively stiff linothorax ? Just checking.

I've never heard this from a primary source. I've heard a ton of conjecture about composition of linothorakes/composite cuirasses/entirely scale cuirasses, and almost all of it is speculative (such as that whole idea that some linothorakes were lined with metal plates on the inside; it could have been done, but there's no evidence for it). Maybe if someone knows, they could cite the original source?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

After we explained our reasons for using the armor the way it is depicted, whether or not that explanation is one meeting your personal approval, why do you, currently an RTR developer and historian (though that is not mentioned publicly here yet I think), continue to pester us on our forum about the depiction of the material (specifically using terms like "baseless conjecture" (your emphasis, not mine) to describe our use of the material)?

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread. Other team members attempted to handle this matter by PM but it continues here on our public thread at your prompting.

[paullus]

Well, we sure know that the Greeks put the scale onto the linothorax. Here's a nice vase painting to illustrate their use:



There are several things to note about the man on the left:

1) The detached shoulder piece. It may just be the coloring options given to Sosias, but we have an interesting color for the material on the underside of this armor--leather perhaps? The color of the hardened inside of the linothorax, before having the outside layer bleached? Whatever it is, we know that there are scales implanted on the outside of it.

2) The stomach is also covered in scales, and, based on the patterning above and below the scales, would seem to be a linothorax base. We can't say for certain. It could just as easily be leather, or a simpler cloth used mainly as a base for the scale. But it looks like a linothorax base. However, we can say that the underside of the connector piece for the shoulder (see other shoulder piece for reference) is a different color than the underside of the main piece, which is a lighter color. Leather vs. linen? Hardened linen vs. linen?

3) Note that below the second set of designs we see scale pteryges. There are two interpretations I can think of: a) it is a separate piece attached around the waist, b) the scale we see on the stomach continues here, it is more like a corselet attached to the chest, bound by the design we see around the waist, which is a belt, and not the bottom of the linothorax. Now, even with option a) its still probably attached to the thorax itself, but its unclear whether the base for these scales would be linen or leather, both were used in pteryges, so either is possible.

4) the chest section. we can see where it ends, how it extents to the base of the shoulder, at which point it relies on the shoulder pieces to manage the transition from front to back. We can see a separate border, or hem, going around the edge, with some sort of light (even filmy) garment underneath. This chest section itself may feature some form of "quilting," or rather, brick-patterned stitchwork, which I find more likely--considering the depiction--than merely designs drawn on the linothorax: if designs they do not fit with the theme of the things on the cuirass which are clearly just designs, and are considerably more crowded than anything else of which I am aware.

You'll also notice the exclusively scale construction of the other thorax, I'm not really sure what all is going on there, mainly because the perspective is a little problematic.

[MeinPanzer]

After we explained our reasons for using the armor the way it is depicted, whether or not that explanation is one meeting your personal approval, why do you, currently an RTR developer and historian (though that is not mentioned publicly here yet I think), continue to pester us on our forum about the depiction of the material (specifically using terms like "baseless conjecture" (your emphasis, not mine) to describe our use of the material)?

First of all, I was answering the questions and speculation of the OP and some other posters in this thread, not asking a question of the EB team.

Secondly, why does it matter if I'm an RTR developer? I appreciate both RTR and EB, and I'd like to contribute to the discussion of the historical accuracy of both. I'm terribly sorry that discussing a matter like this on a public forum which invites historical discussion causes you so much distress.

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread. Other team members attempted to handle this matter by PM but it continues here on our public thread at your prompting.

Paullus sent me a very congenial email to discuss this matter, but that doesn't mean that we can't continue to discuss this matter here, which has in the mean time branched off into a bit of a different zone of discussion. Why do you feel the need to stifle such discussion?

And your use of this style of armour is not exactly "very limited." In a brief scan of the main Greek faction units, I found 6 units wearing such armour, some with studded quilted armour, others simply quilted armour (Iudaioi Taxeis, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi, Thrakiois Hippeis, Machimoi Phalangitai).

There are several things to note about the man on the left:

1) The detached shoulder piece. It may just be the coloring options given to Sosias, but we have an interesting color for the material on the underside of this armor--leather perhaps? The color of the hardened inside of the linothorax, before having the outside layer bleached? Whatever it is, we know that there are scales implanted on the outside of it.

It's unlikely that the inside would be hardened, considering that the shoulder pieces would have to be flexible.

2) The stomach is also covered in scales, and, based on the patterning above and below the scales, would seem to be a linothorax base. We can't say for certain. It could just as easily be leather, or a simpler cloth used mainly as a base for the scale. But it looks like a linothorax base. However, we can say that the underside of the connector piece for the shoulder (see other shoulder piece for reference) is a different color than the underside of the main piece, which is a lighter color. Leather vs. linen? Hardened linen vs. linen?

3) Note that below the second set of designs we see scale pteryges. There are two interpretations I can think of: a) it is a separate piece attached around the waist, b) the scale we see on the stomach continues here, it is more like a corselet attached to the chest, bound by the design we see around the waist, which is a belt, and not the bottom of the linothorax. Now, even with option a) its still probably attached to the thorax itself, but its unclear whether the base for these scales would be linen or leather, both were used in pteryges, so either is possible.

It's clear that with other depictions of these earlier-style T&Y cuirasses that the pteruges were cut directly from the linen at the base of the tube, so my vote would be with B).

4) the chest section. we can see where it ends, how it extents to the base of the shoulder, at which point it relies on the shoulder pieces to manage the transition from front to back. We can see a separate border, or hem, going around the edge, with some sort of light (even filmy) garment underneath. This chest section itself may feature some form of "quilting," or rather, brick-patterned stitchwork, which I find more likely--considering the depiction--than merely designs drawn on the linothorax: if designs they do not fit with the theme of the things on the cuirass which are clearly just designs, and are considerably more crowded than anything else of which I am aware.

I can't even make out what sort of texture is on the top portion, but it seems it could even be finer scales. It looks much too fine to be quilted to me, but with a better image we could probably get a better idea.

You'll also notice the exclusively scale construction of the other thorax, I'm not really sure what all is going on there, mainly because the perspective is a little problematic.

I agree with almost everything you've brought up here, but I'm kind of confused as to why you've brought it up. I don't doubt that scale was worn on the outside of T&Y cuirasses in Classical times, and I also don't doubt that such cuirasses were made of several layers of linen/leather. What I meant by "conjecture about composition of linothorakes/composite cuirasses/entirely scale cuirasses" was more how the cuirasses were constructed, and what we often can't see from iconographic sources, which is the inside, rather than the actual composition of the external materials. What I am referring to is, for instance, the use of metal plates or scales to line the inside of a cuirass, or how many layers of material were used to construct it, or whether different kinds of materials were used within the same piece of armour.

[paullus]

True, the main reason I brought it up was for the two clearly different types of material underneath the shoulder flap. The darker material would seem to be the more rigid, but both are rigid enough that the shoulder piece springs up in the air, rather than just flopping down after the connector (to the main part of the cuirass) had been untied.

EDIT: and I'd say that, for the chest piece of the left soldier, the sections in the picture are a) too small for scale, and b) rectangular, and so unfitting with most representations of scale armor. I agree that the extent of the stitching--if that is what it is--is remarkable, but these seem to be relatively wealthy soldiers, so we might expect they could go a few steps farther to increase the viability of types of armor. Increased stitching would surely increase the effectiveness of padded/quilted armor, by making shorter (and so less vulnerable) seams and an overall tighter construction.

[tk-421]

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread.

And your use of this style of armour is not exactly "very limited." In a brief scan of the main Greek faction units, I found 6 units wearing such armour, some with studded quilted armour, others simply quilted armour (Iudaioi Taxeis, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi, Thrakiois Hippeis, Machimoi Phalangitai).

I counted the total number of skins used by our Greek and strongly Greek-influenced by units and got 190 (remember, this is in our internal build with lots of new units). Of those, only 14 skins used some sort of quilted armor. That's just 7%. Also, I am certain that I accidentally left out several rebel skins (maybe 5-15) when I counted. I happen to know that those do not use padded armor, so I'd guess that the percentage of Greek units using padded armor is probably around 5-6%. I'd say that, for the purposes of the game, that is pretty limited.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I see that one of the textures of the Pantadapoi Phalangitai also uses them, and that one of the textures of the Thracian Hippeis uses them too. Indeed I did not count those in my earlier naming of two units, but I am not referring to studded armor here, just the type that was asked about originally. I don't see the Thureophoroi that you say has it, but it might be one of the approximately 8 or 10 variants of that unit that I haven't found yet in custom battles.

I will also say that from conversations inside the mod team, that there is absolutely no desire expressed in changing them now either. You can make sure RTR doesn't use them though if you are so opposed to their inclusion and so certain no one is using them in these regions in our time period.

As for stifling discussion, there are hundreds and hundreds of threads here. It's a very active place and has lots of things going on all the time. The only ones that I have a problem with seem to be the ones you alone insist on "discussing" (i.e., complaining about - I don't recall seeing any from you talking about how something is good or agreeing with anything we have) EB units in. The one good thing that is sort of evident from all of this is that I don't think this makes any EB members have hard feelings towards RTR at all - it's more like sympathy than anything else, genuinely.

[geala]

I don't understand exactly the backgrounds of the recent discussion but I am not very amused about it. I don't know RTR and am not interested in it. The discussion was about a form of armour not normally seen in the sources in the case of Greeks. It is a form which is very logical, giving a simple and functional armour. I believe that this form of armour existed. It is okay to use it in a game where you are happy to have diversity. But it is also okay to question the armour and ask for the evidence.

[Geoffrey S]

It is okay to use it in a game where you are happy to have diversity. But it is also okay to question the armour and ask for the evidence.

People on both sides of the debate would do well to think on this. Neither the EB representation or MeinPanzer's view are definitely correct or wrong, but both are perfectly possible. Presenting the options as absolutes helps no-one.

[MeinPanzer]

True, the main reason I brought it up was for the two clearly different types of material underneath the shoulder flap. The darker material would seem to be the more rigid, but both are rigid enough that the shoulder piece springs up in the air, rather than just flopping down after the connector (to the main part of the cuirass) had been untied.

Yes, I see what you mean there. Some have suggested that if the T&Y cuirass is the spolas, and thus made of leather, that the shoulder yokes would have to be made of some other material because leather doesn't "spring" like the yokes are often shown doing in art. Considering that the actual "bridge" of the yoke is white, it could suggest linen, which would be able to provide that spring.

EDIT: and I'd say that, for the chest piece of the left soldier, the sections in the picture are a) too small for scale, and b) rectangular, and so unfitting with most representations of scale armor. I agree that the extent of the stitching--if that is what it is--is remarkable, but these seem to be relatively wealthy soldiers, so we might expect they could go a few steps farther to increase the viability of types of armor. Increased stitching would surely increase the effectiveness of padded/quilted armor, by making shorter (and so less vulnerable) seams and an overall tighter construction.

Based on that picture I can't even tell if the sections are rectangular, to be honest, so I'd need to see a better picture in order to judge.

I counted the total number of skins used by our Greek and strongly Greek-influenced by units and got 190 (remember, this is in our internal build with lots of new units). Of those, only 14 skins used some sort of quilted armor. That's just 7%. Also, I am certain that I accidentally left out several rebel skins (maybe 5-15) when I counted. I happen to know that those do not use padded armor, so I'd guess that the percentage of Greek units using padded armor is probably around 5-6%. I'd say that, for the purposes of the game, that is pretty limited.

It doesn't matter how limited the use of such armour is proportional to the overall amount, it's whether you have the evidence to support using it for those units.

I see that one of the textures of the Pantadapoi Phalangitai also uses them, and that one of the textures of the Thracian Hippeis uses them too. Indeed I did not count those in my earlier naming of two units, but I am not referring to studded armor here, just the type that was asked about originally. I don't see the Thureophoroi that you say has it, but it might be one of the approximately 8 or 10 variants of that unit that I haven't found yet in custom battles.

I am including that kind of studded armour in this, because it is clearly quilted armour with studs in it. For example, this thureophoros:

I will also say that from conversations inside the mod team, that there is absolutely no desire expressed in changing them now either. You can make sure RTR doesn't use them though if you are so opposed to their inclusion and so certain no one is using them in these regions in our time period.

But, obviously, if the paullus can find the Hellenistic evidence for quilted armour, aren't you going to change it to accommodate that?

As for stifling discussion, there are hundreds and hundreds of threads here. It's a very active place and has lots of things going on all the time. The only ones that I have a problem with seem to be the ones you alone insist on "discussing" (i.e., complaining about - I don't recall seeing any from you talking about how something is good or agreeing with anything we have) EB units in.

So, in other words, the only discussions you have a problem with are the ones you don't like. I like many units in EB, and because I think they are well done, I feel the need not to discuss them. If you don't want "negative" discussion, why don't you just put a ban on it in the FAQ and be done with it?

I see now that you've surreptitiously excised the portion of the FAQ which read "However, we are always willing to reexamine our work if someone presents us with information that contradicts what we believe to be true" after the last time I was here.

The one good thing that is sort of evident from all of this is that I don't think this makes any EB members have hard feelings towards RTR at all - it's more like sympathy than anything else, genuinely.

Why do you suppose I harbour hard feelings toward EB? As before, you seem to confuse criticism with animosity.

[Foot]

Why do you suppose I harbour hard feelings toward EB? As before, you seem to confuse criticism with animosity.

Because of the way you conduct your discussions.

I'm no historian, my efforts for Hayasdan and EB are purely as part of a hobby, but your manner suggests to me, and no doubt to many other members, a lack of receptivity and a lack of respect for EB historians. We offer to you evidence in support of our own theories, yet you disregard them with such certainty that it is as if we were throwing paper at a wall. Your manner is not conducive to discussion. Your standards are appreciable, but they are only your standards, and they are not the only standards by which to judge historical evidence. Nor does the fact that our standards are not as strict as yours make ours inferior (wow! that was a bad sentence). You do not have to agree with our conclusions, but your continued persistence on this matter in the face of the evidence we have produced suggests a sincere lack of respect for our standards of interpretation and our suitability as historians.

If you wish discuss standards of interpretation then sure we would be more than happy to, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This topic was started and continued by an inquiry into a type of armour and the historical evidence for it inclusion on certain units within our timeframe. We have given our evidence and our reasons for our interpretation of said evidence, and we gladly include this armour within our game with a clear conscience as historians that we are following our standards and not being mislead by personal desire or a lack of objectivity.

Unless you can argue well enough that our standards of judgement and interpretation show an unhistorical trend, or that our objectivity as historians has been compromised then you must accept our standards of interpretation and argue accordingly. Currently its like a Christian criticising Nietzsche's philosophy on the grounds of Christian metaphysical truths, whilst Nietzsche himself has already rejected them. It is up to you to meet us on our ground, or make a powerful case that our ground is in the wrong. You have done neither. The discussion necessarily meets an impasse.

Foot

[MeinPanzer]

Because of the way you conduct your discussions.

I'm no historian, my efforts for Hayasdan and EB are purely as part of a hobby, but your manner suggests to me, and no doubt to many other members, a lack of receptivity and a lack of respect for EB historians. We offer to you evidence in support of our own theories, yet you disregard them with such certainty that it is as if we were throwing paper at a wall.

Here, again, you characterize my disagreement with the EB interpretations as being "disrespectful." Why can't you accept that criticism can be directed at you without malice? This is exactly how the whole hubbub got started in the first place when I criticized your choices; the team took it as an affront to their efforts, when you had originally welcomed such discussion. I should note here that paullus and I can discuss such matters just fine and in a civil manner without cries of pestering, offence, or disrespect in private, so why can't that go on here?

Your manner is not conducive to discussion. Your standards are appreciable, but they are only your standards, and they are not the only standards by which to judge historical evidence. Nor does the fact that our standards are not as strict as yours make ours inferior (wow! that was a bad sentence). You do not have to agree with our conclusions, but your continued persistence on this matter in the face of the evidence we have produced suggests a sincere lack of respect for our standards of interpretation and our suitability as historians.

Let me be clear here: Your standards are far from historical, but I understand why. You are reconstructing units, and the evidence is almost always incomplete, forcing you to bridge gaps. Within the void of those gaps, it is very tempting to side more with artistry than the evidence, and that provides benefits of its own. However, it is the EB team's willingness to bridge gaps of hundreds of years and hundreds, even thousands, of kilometres in applying evidence to reconstructions that is so disconcerting. As in here, we have established that, yes, evidence for diamondwork quilted armour exists, but from limited regions and almost entirely ending in the mid-4th C. BC. Yet you have reconstructed such armour on units from at least a hundred years later and from locations where no trace of such armour has been found, such as Crete. That is not historical, and so the claim to historicity is false.

If you wish discuss standards of interpretation then sure we would be more than happy to, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This topic was started and continued by an inquiry into a type of armour and the historical evidence for it inclusion on certain units within our timeframe. We have given our evidence and our reasons for our interpretation of said evidence, and we gladly include this armour within our game with a clear conscience as historians that we are following our standards and not being mislead by personal desire or a lack of objectivity.

Before this derail was started, and I was accused of "pestering" the EB team (in the first discussion I have contributed to in several months), we were discussing the topic at hand. Once again, this wasn't an inquiry into EB's choice of armour, just a discussion of the actual evidence for it.

Unless you can argue well enough that our standards of judgement and interpretation show an unhistorical trend, or that our objectivity as historians has been compromised then you must accept our standards of interpretation and argue accordingly. Currently its like a Christian criticising Nietzsche's philosophy on the grounds of Christian metaphysical truths, whilst Nietzsche himself has already rejected them. It is up to you to meet us on our ground, or make a powerful case that our ground is in the wrong. You have done neither. The discussion necessarily meets an impasse.

Funny that you compare me to a Christian criticizing Nietzsche, when like the Christian you are the one who has no qualms about creating colourful constructions within gaps in the evidence and then holding them up as fact, and yet like Nietzsche I am the one who is calling for an observance of the actual evidence. And much like many Christians, you try to colour the debate my shifting the responsibility for providing evidence. The onus is on you, who has diverged from the evidence, to explain that divergence, and not the other way around.

[abou]

Let me be clear here: Your standards are far from historical...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

As in here, we have established that, yes, evidence for diamondwork quilted armour exists, but from limited regions and almost entirely ending in the mid-4th C. BC. Yet you have reconstructed such armour on units from at least a hundred years later and from locations where no trace of such armour has been found, such as Crete. That is not historical, and so the claim to historicity is false.

If Urnamma says that quilted linen armor is found on third century Rhodes, the same type that existed from India through Mesopotamia to Scythia and Anatolia and down to Egypt for two centuries prior, then by god we will use it for some light armed units also. Whether you like it or not. "Limited regions" my ass. You play loose with the details when it suits you just as much as you accuse us and our mod team of doing so.

We don't have evidence that Pontic generals used the older Persian cheires or neck guards either, but we feel more than fine about using them in our reconstruction of the unit. Because we have no quilted armor on Crete in the third century doesn't mean that we aren't going to keep from using it on *one* unit recruited there.

[MeinPanzer]

If Urnamma says that quilted linen armor is found on third century Rhodes, the same type that existed from India through Mesopotamia to Scythia and Anatolia and down to Egypt for two centuries prior, then by god we will use it for some light armed units also. Whether you like it or not. "Limited regions" my ass. You play loose with the details when it suits you just as much as you accuse us and our mod team of doing so.

Once again, "linen armour" does not mean quilted armour, which is what we are discussing here. And no, I won't take evidence from an entirely different geographic and chronological location and apply it to something else without a very good reason to do so supported by solid evidence (not just "because they could have worn it"), so I'm not "loose with the details" quite like that.

We don't have evidence that Pontic generals used the older Persian cheires or neck guards either, but we feel more than fine about using them in our reconstruction of the unit.

...Something else I disagree with, especially the bizarre single-cheir unit.

Because we have no quilted armor on Crete in the third century doesn't mean that we aren't going to keep from using it on *one* unit recruited there.

And this makes perfectly clear what I said about your claims of historicity being false. Were this an academic reconstruction, such logic wouldn't fly. There is evidence of other kinds of armour being worn on 3rd century BC Crete, but instead you choose to reconstruct a unit using a type of armour which has not been found in evidence from Crete in this time.

[Thaatu]

Considering this is your opening for this discussion, you might see why people have a problem with your attitude:

There's absolutely no primary evidence for this.

The problem is that you don't articulate your words to fit a scientific debate taking place in this arena, meaning in a place where people can't see your expressions. In most of your posts it seems as if you don't even consider about being wrong or changing your own perspective, you only focus on proving others wrong.

You do seem to know a lot about the subjects you comment on and I believe you do. But remember that in an internet forum no-one knows if you're some kid who knows how to google, or a university professor. English is a language in which every word can be insulting, it's just a matter of the delivery. The EB team is very easily insulted, because the pressure and past experiences has put them on the defensive. Still, I'd like to see everyone keep their cool.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Your standards are your standards. When the hell did you become the arbiter of all that is "historical" or not? Again, might I remind you that you are not on the EB team and you do not determine what is in the mod or not? An "academic reconstruction" would not ever have to attempt to create as many units as we have, and as many variations of as many units as we have - to aid in providing that variation (and indeed, there was a lot of it in antiquity and there is a lot of it in EB but in ways that the engine can depict; i.e., in different units, not within individual variations of soldiers within a single unit), we will sometimes use a texture or a piece of equipment that was not as common or some element from an adjacent or influential neighbor to add to the realism - not to detract from it. That's what is happening here. Is it realistic to insist that every unit wear the same thing or have only the type of weapon or cuirass or helmet that is the most common type for that province and that unit found inside that province? Hardly. Using a common light armor (yes, common), one that is highly degradable in comparison to other types and that in artistic depictions can be confused with scale or patterened designs on cloth, on a few of our variants of a few of our units is not some egregious error. Just a few images in files on my cpu here depicting this type of armor, for those who have read along but haven't seen much in the way of these images:



You already have said you think we are far from historical, so leave it at that and just leave. We will not be changing every unit you think has problems to fit your personal opinion about what is truely accurate and what is not. You have control over another mod now - impose your standards upon them if you like. We knew very well what your participation would result in and I feel sorry for anyone who feels like they must accede to your every demand and opinion when it comes to Hellenistic arms.

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Thaatu - "past experiences" that include many from this same user - most of those 186 posts probably also if anyone looked into it. This really hasn't happened a lot otherwise. A handful of other times when there was something serious that needed changing that I am aware of. Probably a number of other times when the answer was easily provided and the people thanked us and the matter was closed.