Small question: What armour is this?

[MeinPanzer]

Depends a bit on what you mean by "geometric", but overall more or less yeah.

I've only ever seen examples of armour quilted in geometric patterns in the past, but I guess they could just be repeating patterns.

Footnote in Sidnell's Warhorse. Lemme quote it in full. "Alexander himself seems to have swapped his composite linen and metal cuirass, depicted in the Issus Mosaic, for a thickly quilted Persian one captured at Issus. Plutarch, Alexander, translated by Ian Scott-Kilvert (London, 1973), c. 32."

Make what you will out of that, can't say I've read Plutarch myself.

Plutarch, Alexander 32.5:

"After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus."

So, no, there is no mention of quilting here, just a linothorax. I'm afraid Phil was mistaken with that quote.

1. I don't think that a "quilted armour" has to consist of two sheets and a filling. "Quilting" (if I get it right in English) is a technique to stabilize different layers of material together. So a gambeson padded with some soft stuff which is fixed by stitching can be quilted, as well as a gambeson consisting of different layers of linen stitched together.

I think there are a couple of definitions of quilting, ranging from very specialized to more general in meaning, but what I mean by quilting is this, taken from dictionary.com's definition:

5. To stitch together (two pieces of cloth and a soft interlining), usually in an ornamental pattern.

At any rate, let's not let this devolve into a debate over semantics. What I object to here is the recreation of a type of armour in use in the Hellenistic period which has a repeating stitched pattern over the majority of the body.

2. I cannot imagine that the frequently depicted tube-and-yoke armour shall be the spolas. Xenophons mentioning of thorakes and spolades, given to the horsemen and the slingers, must then be interpreted in that way that the spolades were given to the slingers. Of course this is possible. But it would be strange that slingers should wear the same armour so often worn by hoplites. The shoulder flaps could also be a hindrance for a slinger (that could be tested). I think the spolas was a plain leather or linen or leather/linen jerkin, used under the armour or sometimes alone.

I don't see why it would be impossible for slingers to wear cuirasses- the tube-and-yoke cuirass was, if we look at iconographic sources, apparently very flexible and the light armour par excellence in the Classical period. It's also obvious from the need that Thucydides felt to mention it that that occurrence was somewhat extraordinary.

The composite armour spread in use in the 6th c. BC if we can thrust the vase paintings. It has the normal tube-and-yoke form. Alkaios clearly speaks of "thorrakes neo lino". Writing this early in the 6th c. that is a good coincidence and a hint to the linen nature of the tube-and-yoke armour.

Yes, there is a period in the beginning of the T&Y (I'm just going to call it that from now on, instead of tube-and-yoke) that linen armour is also mentioned in literary sources. However, during the T&Y's heyday in Classical and Hellenistic iconographic sources, we hear almost nothing of linen armour, which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect, especially from those writers who were very familiar with their contemporary militaries, such as Thucydides and Polybius.

[Dwin]

Damn, I lost track of what this is all about.

What is the tube-and-yolk you're talking about? You mean like a linothorax type armour, with shoulder pads and such?

[MeinPanzer]

Damn, I lost track of what this is all about.

What is the tube-and-yolk you're talking about? You mean like a linothorax type armour, with shoulder pads and such?

The kind of armour seen in Greek art which has a "tube" torso which extends in the back into two "yokes" which can then be drawn down over the shoulders and secured. It is generally referred to (perhaps erroneously) as a linothorax.

[Watchman]

I've only ever seen examples of armour quilted in geometric patterns in the past, but I guess they could just be repeating patterns.

The Byzantines at one point favoured a pattern mostly resembling a kind of slate roof for example.

Plutarch, Alexander 32.5:

"After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus."

So, no, there is no mention of quilting here, just a linothorax. I'm afraid Phil was mistaken with that quote.

You may well have a point there, but... does "two-ply linen" automatically mean good ole 'lino, though ? Linen was, if I've understood correctly, the main material used in both forms of textile-based armour, and I don't think it would take too terrible a stretch of imagination to interpret the wording as referring to the inner- and outermost layer of a "soft" cuirass as easily as "lino"...?

Side note: didn't the Persians prefer to make their scale armour on a soft base whereas the Greeks favoured adding the metal bits to the relatively stiff linothorax ? Just checking.

[MeinPanzer]

You may well have a point there, but... does "two-ply linen" automatically mean good ole 'lino, though ? Linen was, if I've understood correctly, the main material used in both forms of textile-based armour, and I don't think it would take too terrible a stretch of imagination to interpret the wording as referring to the inner- and outermost layer of a "soft" cuirass as easily as "lino"...?

All that matters is that that passage does not, in fact, say that Alexander wears a "a thickly quilted Persian cuirass." It's a two-ply linen cuirass, and that's all we can take from that. The problem with interpreting it being two-ply with it being a quilted cuirass is that we simply don't necessarily know how many layers was average for a linothorax. Some have postulated that the T&Y cuirasses with a seam at either side of the front of the abdomen are made of a single layer of linen which was wrapped around the body twice, which would provide good protection but which would also afford the best flexibility. Now, this is purely conjecture, but it could mean that linothorakes were 2-ply.

Side note: didn't the Persians prefer to make their scale armour on a soft base whereas the Greeks favoured adding the metal bits to the relatively stiff linothorax ? Just checking.

I've never heard this from a primary source. I've heard a ton of conjecture about composition of linothorakes/composite cuirasses/entirely scale cuirasses, and almost all of it is speculative (such as that whole idea that some linothorakes were lined with metal plates on the inside; it could have been done, but there's no evidence for it). Maybe if someone knows, they could cite the original source?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

After we explained our reasons for using the armor the way it is depicted, whether or not that explanation is one meeting your personal approval, why do you, currently an RTR developer and historian (though that is not mentioned publicly here yet I think), continue to pester us on our forum about the depiction of the material (specifically using terms like "baseless conjecture" (your emphasis, not mine) to describe our use of the material)?

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread. Other team members attempted to handle this matter by PM but it continues here on our public thread at your prompting.

[MeinPanzer]

After we explained our reasons for using the armor the way it is depicted, whether or not that explanation is one meeting your personal approval, why do you, currently an RTR developer and historian (though that is not mentioned publicly here yet I think), continue to pester us on our forum about the depiction of the material (specifically using terms like "baseless conjecture" (your emphasis, not mine) to describe our use of the material)?

First of all, I was answering the questions and speculation of the OP and some other posters in this thread, not asking a question of the EB team.

Secondly, why does it matter if I'm an RTR developer? I appreciate both RTR and EB, and I'd like to contribute to the discussion of the historical accuracy of both. I'm terribly sorry that discussing a matter like this on a public forum which invites historical discussion causes you so much distress.

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread. Other team members attempted to handle this matter by PM but it continues here on our public thread at your prompting.

Paullus sent me a very congenial email to discuss this matter, but that doesn't mean that we can't continue to discuss this matter here, which has in the mean time branched off into a bit of a different zone of discussion. Why do you feel the need to stifle such discussion?

And your use of this style of armour is not exactly "very limited." In a brief scan of the main Greek faction units, I found 6 units wearing such armour, some with studded quilted armour, others simply quilted armour (Iudaioi Taxeis, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi, Thrakiois Hippeis, Machimoi Phalangitai).

There are several things to note about the man on the left:

1) The detached shoulder piece. It may just be the coloring options given to Sosias, but we have an interesting color for the material on the underside of this armor--leather perhaps? The color of the hardened inside of the linothorax, before having the outside layer bleached? Whatever it is, we know that there are scales implanted on the outside of it.

It's unlikely that the inside would be hardened, considering that the shoulder pieces would have to be flexible.

2) The stomach is also covered in scales, and, based on the patterning above and below the scales, would seem to be a linothorax base. We can't say for certain. It could just as easily be leather, or a simpler cloth used mainly as a base for the scale. But it looks like a linothorax base. However, we can say that the underside of the connector piece for the shoulder (see other shoulder piece for reference) is a different color than the underside of the main piece, which is a lighter color. Leather vs. linen? Hardened linen vs. linen?

3) Note that below the second set of designs we see scale pteryges. There are two interpretations I can think of: a) it is a separate piece attached around the waist, b) the scale we see on the stomach continues here, it is more like a corselet attached to the chest, bound by the design we see around the waist, which is a belt, and not the bottom of the linothorax. Now, even with option a) its still probably attached to the thorax itself, but its unclear whether the base for these scales would be linen or leather, both were used in pteryges, so either is possible.

It's clear that with other depictions of these earlier-style T&Y cuirasses that the pteruges were cut directly from the linen at the base of the tube, so my vote would be with B).

4) the chest section. we can see where it ends, how it extents to the base of the shoulder, at which point it relies on the shoulder pieces to manage the transition from front to back. We can see a separate border, or hem, going around the edge, with some sort of light (even filmy) garment underneath. This chest section itself may feature some form of "quilting," or rather, brick-patterned stitchwork, which I find more likely--considering the depiction--than merely designs drawn on the linothorax: if designs they do not fit with the theme of the things on the cuirass which are clearly just designs, and are considerably more crowded than anything else of which I am aware.

I can't even make out what sort of texture is on the top portion, but it seems it could even be finer scales. It looks much too fine to be quilted to me, but with a better image we could probably get a better idea.

You'll also notice the exclusively scale construction of the other thorax, I'm not really sure what all is going on there, mainly because the perspective is a little problematic.

I agree with almost everything you've brought up here, but I'm kind of confused as to why you've brought it up. I don't doubt that scale was worn on the outside of T&Y cuirasses in Classical times, and I also don't doubt that such cuirasses were made of several layers of linen/leather. What I meant by "conjecture about composition of linothorakes/composite cuirasses/entirely scale cuirasses" was more how the cuirasses were constructed, and what we often can't see from iconographic sources, which is the inside, rather than the actual composition of the external materials. What I am referring to is, for instance, the use of metal plates or scales to line the inside of a cuirass, or how many layers of material were used to construct it, or whether different kinds of materials were used within the same piece of armour.

[paullus]

True, the main reason I brought it up was for the two clearly different types of material underneath the shoulder flap. The darker material would seem to be the more rigid, but both are rigid enough that the shoulder piece springs up in the air, rather than just flopping down after the connector (to the main part of the cuirass) had been untied.

EDIT: and I'd say that, for the chest piece of the left soldier, the sections in the picture are a) too small for scale, and b) rectangular, and so unfitting with most representations of scale armor. I agree that the extent of the stitching--if that is what it is--is remarkable, but these seem to be relatively wealthy soldiers, so we might expect they could go a few steps farther to increase the viability of types of armor. Increased stitching would surely increase the effectiveness of padded/quilted armor, by making shorter (and so less vulnerable) seams and an overall tighter construction.

[MeinPanzer]

True, the main reason I brought it up was for the two clearly different types of material underneath the shoulder flap. The darker material would seem to be the more rigid, but both are rigid enough that the shoulder piece springs up in the air, rather than just flopping down after the connector (to the main part of the cuirass) had been untied.

Yes, I see what you mean there. Some have suggested that if the T&Y cuirass is the spolas, and thus made of leather, that the shoulder yokes would have to be made of some other material because leather doesn't "spring" like the yokes are often shown doing in art. Considering that the actual "bridge" of the yoke is white, it could suggest linen, which would be able to provide that spring.

EDIT: and I'd say that, for the chest piece of the left soldier, the sections in the picture are a) too small for scale, and b) rectangular, and so unfitting with most representations of scale armor. I agree that the extent of the stitching--if that is what it is--is remarkable, but these seem to be relatively wealthy soldiers, so we might expect they could go a few steps farther to increase the viability of types of armor. Increased stitching would surely increase the effectiveness of padded/quilted armor, by making shorter (and so less vulnerable) seams and an overall tighter construction.

Based on that picture I can't even tell if the sections are rectangular, to be honest, so I'd need to see a better picture in order to judge.

I counted the total number of skins used by our Greek and strongly Greek-influenced by units and got 190 (remember, this is in our internal build with lots of new units). Of those, only 14 skins used some sort of quilted armor. That's just 7%. Also, I am certain that I accidentally left out several rebel skins (maybe 5-15) when I counted. I happen to know that those do not use padded armor, so I'd guess that the percentage of Greek units using padded armor is probably around 5-6%. I'd say that, for the purposes of the game, that is pretty limited.

It doesn't matter how limited the use of such armour is proportional to the overall amount, it's whether you have the evidence to support using it for those units.

I see that one of the textures of the Pantadapoi Phalangitai also uses them, and that one of the textures of the Thracian Hippeis uses them too. Indeed I did not count those in my earlier naming of two units, but I am not referring to studded armor here, just the type that was asked about originally. I don't see the Thureophoroi that you say has it, but it might be one of the approximately 8 or 10 variants of that unit that I haven't found yet in custom battles.

I am including that kind of studded armour in this, because it is clearly quilted armour with studs in it. For example, this thureophoros:

I will also say that from conversations inside the mod team, that there is absolutely no desire expressed in changing them now either. You can make sure RTR doesn't use them though if you are so opposed to their inclusion and so certain no one is using them in these regions in our time period.

But, obviously, if the paullus can find the Hellenistic evidence for quilted armour, aren't you going to change it to accommodate that?

As for stifling discussion, there are hundreds and hundreds of threads here. It's a very active place and has lots of things going on all the time. The only ones that I have a problem with seem to be the ones you alone insist on "discussing" (i.e., complaining about - I don't recall seeing any from you talking about how something is good or agreeing with anything we have) EB units in.

So, in other words, the only discussions you have a problem with are the ones you don't like. I like many units in EB, and because I think they are well done, I feel the need not to discuss them. If you don't want "negative" discussion, why don't you just put a ban on it in the FAQ and be done with it?

I see now that you've surreptitiously excised the portion of the FAQ which read "However, we are always willing to reexamine our work if someone presents us with information that contradicts what we believe to be true" after the last time I was here.

The one good thing that is sort of evident from all of this is that I don't think this makes any EB members have hard feelings towards RTR at all - it's more like sympathy than anything else, genuinely.

Why do you suppose I harbour hard feelings toward EB? As before, you seem to confuse criticism with animosity.

[tk-421]

We are content to use quilted armor in a very limited manner for Greeks (on Machimoi Egyptian Phalangites and one texture variant of the Cretan archer unit) because of the reasons stated above in this thread.

And your use of this style of armour is not exactly "very limited." In a brief scan of the main Greek faction units, I found 6 units wearing such armour, some with studded quilted armour, others simply quilted armour (Iudaioi Taxeis, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Thureophoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi, Thrakiois Hippeis, Machimoi Phalangitai).

I counted the total number of skins used by our Greek and strongly Greek-influenced by units and got 190 (remember, this is in our internal build with lots of new units). Of those, only 14 skins used some sort of quilted armor. That's just 7%. Also, I am certain that I accidentally left out several rebel skins (maybe 5-15) when I counted. I happen to know that those do not use padded armor, so I'd guess that the percentage of Greek units using padded armor is probably around 5-6%. I'd say that, for the purposes of the game, that is pretty limited.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I see that one of the textures of the Pantadapoi Phalangitai also uses them, and that one of the textures of the Thracian Hippeis uses them too. Indeed I did not count those in my earlier naming of two units, but I am not referring to studded armor here, just the type that was asked about originally. I don't see the Thureophoroi that you say has it, but it might be one of the approximately 8 or 10 variants of that unit that I haven't found yet in custom battles.

I will also say that from conversations inside the mod team, that there is absolutely no desire expressed in changing them now either. You can make sure RTR doesn't use them though if you are so opposed to their inclusion and so certain no one is using them in these regions in our time period.

As for stifling discussion, there are hundreds and hundreds of threads here. It's a very active place and has lots of things going on all the time. The only ones that I have a problem with seem to be the ones you alone insist on "discussing" (i.e., complaining about - I don't recall seeing any from you talking about how something is good or agreeing with anything we have) EB units in. The one good thing that is sort of evident from all of this is that I don't think this makes any EB members have hard feelings towards RTR at all - it's more like sympathy than anything else, genuinely.

[paullus]

Well, we sure know that the Greeks put the scale onto the linothorax. Here's a nice vase painting to illustrate their use:



There are several things to note about the man on the left:

1) The detached shoulder piece. It may just be the coloring options given to Sosias, but we have an interesting color for the material on the underside of this armor--leather perhaps? The color of the hardened inside of the linothorax, before having the outside layer bleached? Whatever it is, we know that there are scales implanted on the outside of it.

2) The stomach is also covered in scales, and, based on the patterning above and below the scales, would seem to be a linothorax base. We can't say for certain. It could just as easily be leather, or a simpler cloth used mainly as a base for the scale. But it looks like a linothorax base. However, we can say that the underside of the connector piece for the shoulder (see other shoulder piece for reference) is a different color than the underside of the main piece, which is a lighter color. Leather vs. linen? Hardened linen vs. linen?

3) Note that below the second set of designs we see scale pteryges. There are two interpretations I can think of: a) it is a separate piece attached around the waist, b) the scale we see on the stomach continues here, it is more like a corselet attached to the chest, bound by the design we see around the waist, which is a belt, and not the bottom of the linothorax. Now, even with option a) its still probably attached to the thorax itself, but its unclear whether the base for these scales would be linen or leather, both were used in pteryges, so either is possible.

4) the chest section. we can see where it ends, how it extents to the base of the shoulder, at which point it relies on the shoulder pieces to manage the transition from front to back. We can see a separate border, or hem, going around the edge, with some sort of light (even filmy) garment underneath. This chest section itself may feature some form of "quilting," or rather, brick-patterned stitchwork, which I find more likely--considering the depiction--than merely designs drawn on the linothorax: if designs they do not fit with the theme of the things on the cuirass which are clearly just designs, and are considerably more crowded than anything else of which I am aware.

You'll also notice the exclusively scale construction of the other thorax, I'm not really sure what all is going on there, mainly because the perspective is a little problematic.