EGYPT: Mamluk Archers have TWO quivers.

[Shahed]

Hello Everyone !

Has anyone noticed that Mamluk Archers with mail armor have 2 quivers ? One on the back, and one on the waist, Steppe style. I only noticed this today. That is a very nice detail. I am not certain but it looks like the 2nd quiver has been skinned upside down, well at least it's there.

I'd also like some opinion on whether they should have more ammo. No arguements, opinion only please. I'm thinking about modding the ammo count for these HA, giving them something a little special.

Salute !

[Csargo]

Well if they have two quivers then they should have more ammo.

[Miracle]

That white pouch is an inherent feature of all bow/xbow-armed units with Mamluk-style heavy mail.

As such, Moorish Crossbow Militia and Granadine Crossbow Cavalry with heavy mail upgrade have this pouch.

If you're going to give MA more ammo, you're going to have to do it for these units as well.

Here's another interesting tidbit:

Dismounted Arab Cavalry have sword scabbards but they can only wield spears. This is because they use the same skin as Arab Cavalry which can actually switch to swords.

Small mistake on CA's part.

[dopp]

I'm not a massive HA fan, but 50 arrows sounds about right for them (a quote in something I recently read on the Mongols). They have a horse to carry the stuff, plus archery is their preferred fighting style (rather than a preliminary to the 'real' fighting), so it is natural that they should have more ammo.

Of course, balance will be an problem. I recently tried cutting cavalry regiment sizes by half to ease pathfinding issues, so I could easily justify doubling the ammo count of all missile cavalry. Full-sized HA regiments with twice as much ammo will be a nightmare to face.

[Shahed]

Dopp, that is why I said in the first post I was thinking of giving these guys something special, not everyone, just them. I did'nt quite understand the point on Mongols, you mean give the Mongols more arrows, I'm assuming.

[Xehh II]

I have seen that they have two quivers but they shouldn't have more arrows because the quiver at their waist is upside-down and the extra arrows would've fallen out.

[Kobal2fr]

I'm not a massive HA fan, but 50 arrows sounds about right for them (a quote in something I recently read on the Mongols). They have a horse to carry the stuff, plus archery is their preferred fighting style (rather than a preliminary to the 'real' fighting), so it is natural that they should have more ammo.

Of course, balance will be an problem. I recently tried cutting cavalry regiment sizes by half to ease pathfinding issues, so I could easily justify doubling the ammo count of all missile cavalry. Full-sized HA regiments with twice as much ammo will be a nightmare to face.

True to a point, but considering that pretty much everything else in the Egyptian roster sucks worse than a pornstar inside a blackhole, I'd say one good-to-uberish unit wouldn't unbalance them that bad, especially since you can rely on the "woooot, militia spearmen !" AI not to spam its Mamluks.

[Miracle]

pretty much everything else in the Egyptian roster sucks

Hey don't bash Egypt like that. They actually have a decent roster:

• Kurdish Javelinmen - given padded armor they will easily beat most spearmen in melee combat alone. Not bad for a wooden castle-level unit.
• Desert Cavalry - in the Levantine desert they are as good as jinetes. Works well in tandem with MA
• Saracen Militia - nearly on par with their Italian counterparts in greatness
• Halberd Militia - probably the second or third strongest militia melee unit available in campaign
• Naffatun - absolute monsters above gates and on enemy flanks
• Hashashim - very strong battlefield special forces used for defending the homeland
• Sudanese Gunners - strong arquebusier unit
• Tabardariyya - great charger on the flanks and lethal on the walls
• Mamluks - second best Fortress-level heavy cavalry
• Royal Mamluks - the strongest anti-cavalry cavalry available (when given armor upgrades)

Ok so they aren't as great as the Turks overall but they certainly don't suck.

[zaher]

Hey don't bash Egypt like that. They actually have a decent roster:

• Kurdish Javelinmen - given padded armor they will easily beat most spearmen in melee combat alone. Not bad for a wooden castle-level unit.
• Desert Cavalry - in the Levantine desert they are as good as jinetes. Works well in tandem with MA
• Saracen Militia - nearly on par with their Italian counterparts in greatness
• Halberd Militia - probably the second or third strongest militia melee unit available in campaign
• Naffatun - absolute monsters above gates and on enemy flanks
• Hashashim - very strong battlefield special forces used for defending the homeland
• Sudanese Gunners - strong arquebusier unit
• Tabardariyya - great charger on the flanks and lethal on the walls
• Mamluks - second best Fortress-level heavy cavalry
• Royal Mamluks - the strongest anti-cavalry cavalry available (when given armor upgrades)

Ok so they aren't as great as the Turks overall but they certainly don't suck.

Absolutely agreed. And dont forget, all mamluk- based cavalry are armed with maces, so mamluk archers are the strongest archer cavalry when engaged in melee vs armoured units. They remind me Boyar sons with bows, cause boyars got axes as secondary weapon too.
Need to say, desert and nubian archers are very good too, nubian are only archers who fight with maces too, and desert are best suited for desert fighting. I mean, both of them can beat saracen militia in 1v1close fight.

[Kobal2fr]

Except everything in that list, the Moors have it as well, except for Tabaradariyya (which don't hold a candle to Urban Militia and Christian Guard) and the Mamluks. And Naffatun, which admitedly are very good, and I miss them every time I play as the Moors.

On the other hand, the Moors get camel gunners, peasant crossbows with the metal xbow, western knights to go with their lighter arab and desert cav, sword militias, knight-murdering Jinetes, an arguably better starting position including access to western style mercenaries... No, really, the Egyptians are probably one of the worst factions IMO (with Hungary. Except Hungary has great units. They're just frigging PINK ! )

[Shahed]

Agreed 100%.

I think a reskin plus modifying the ammocount, possibly the weapon will make Mamluk Archers more impactful.

[Miracle]

Except everything in that list, the Moors have it as well

Not quite...their only common units on that list are desert cavalry, hashashim and sudanese gunners.

No, really, the Egyptians are probably one of the worst factions IMO (with Hungary. Except Hungary has great units. They're just frigging PINK ! )

In 1.2, yes I have to somewhat agree with you. Tabardariyya could have elevated Egypt to top status, but alas CA didn't improve 2H axes enough and the Tabs just don't cut it in frontal melee.

However they still have their Mamluks, the awesome cities of Alexandria and Cairo, and quick Jihad access to Jerusalem and Antioch. Those alone may make Egypt worthwhile.

Interestingly I once thought Hungary was a great faction because of good western knights + good HA, but I was put off by their poor economics and nasty colour.

[Kobal2fr]

However they still have their Mamluks, the awesome cities of Alexandria and Cairo, and quick Jihad access to Jerusalem and Antioch. Those alone may make Egypt worthwhile.

Which of course comes with a catch : barbarian invasions ! And on both sides too : you get the goody goody crusaders from the West, and the Mongols+Timurids from the East.

Interestingly I once thought Hungary was a great faction because of good western knights + good HA, but I was put off by their poor economics and nasty colour.

Same here. I've always thought their position was very interesting and their roster was the best of both worlds, but I could never play more than a few turns as them... The prospect of covering the map in salmon pink was just too depressing. Plus you only face the most stylish factions too : Germany in striking black and gold (always one of my favorite color matches), Venice in rich red and gold, the purple Greeks (purple being my fav color)... I'd give the hand of my daughter and half the realm for a re-color job, maybe the same dark green and gold, or dark green and crimson... But now I'm starting to sound like Queer Eye for the Dark Ages Guy .

[Xehh II]

I think a reskin plus modifying the ammocount, possibly the weapon will make Mamluk Archers more impactful.

Mamluk archers can't have more ammo!The second quiver is upside-down, you can't put arrows in an upside-down quiver! They would fall out!

[Shahed]

LOL ! Yes I overlooked that minor detail.
They should look something like this with arrows accessible, one of the reasons why they need to be reskinned.

[dopp]

Actually I was suggesting that most, if not all, horse archer units should get their ammo doubled, not just the Mamluks (yes, I'm that evil). Didn't the Mongols ride around with two quivers as well?