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Thread: Maps and Provinces

  1. #1
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Maps and Provinces

    Please post your suggestions on the Map for the Pocket Mod here. Some sort of visual aid based on your suggestions is required; I'll be putting mine up tomorrow.

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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Sorry for the Doublepost, but this is my Idea. It's haphazard and not finalized, so it might be a little confusing.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Could you by any chance number it and provide a key with the proposed province names?


  4. #4

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Some comments on that map (I assume that the islands stand as separated provinces):
    -Move the borders of Constantinople (and the name) to Thrace. AKA: full Europe province, with an adequate border representing the Bosphorous strait.

    -North of Castile: Lordship of Biscay

    -What are the two south-sahara provinces?
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    -Move the borders of Constantinople (and the name) to Thrace. AKA: full Europe province, with an adequate border representing the Bosphorous strait.
    My argument against this is that although the Constantinople province is not ideal it does represent the cities that would have been held by the Byzantine for much longer than the rest of western Anatolia. It also more closely reflects the approximate border between Nicaea and the Latin Empire after the fourth crusade.

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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Thanks for the input. I have adjusted the map to be more understandable. I haven't yet completed a list or key for provinces yet, mostly because I lack names for a few of them, and any help in that regard would be most appreciated. I have add sea borders (red line) and landbridges (cyan line). Green lines donote where "possible" provinces may be.



    Cheers!

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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    No Comments ? I still need help on the names for provinces.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror
    No Comments ? I still need help on the names for provinces.
    If the provinces are nameless then I'm not sure how you have come up with their locations? What you have to remember is that in those days there were no real provinces, just land claimed by a certain lord or king based on visual geographics. Kingdoms such as Navarre, Aragon and Kiev changed size constantly. you're going to have to base your provinces on what we have at the moment, not on a complete rework. you're also going to have to keep the limitations to the number of provinces in mind. looking at your map I would estimate that you've gone over that.

    I'm also unsure about some of your choices, including the new province in northern Anatolia stretching into north western Nicaea and the eastern part of the old Constantinople province.

    The best thing at this point would be for you to provide sources for the map, so that others can scrutinise it.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Well, some historical ones I know:

    - Despotate of Morea as in the southern Greece province

    - The Lordship of Biscay, in Northern Spain. Switched hands between Castile and Navarre several times.

    -Also, found this webpage which might help in other consultations:
    http://www.allempires.com/
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Actually, I have 106 set provinces, with 6 possible ones (Green lines). I also have 14 sea regions, which is a reduced amount (from 24 or 21, I believe). The ungainly "northern" Anatolia province is an attempt to create a western Trebizond while taking the advice from Unknown Guy to make Constantinople a european province while still keeping intact Nicaea's borders . As for naming, I am attempting to be historically accurate as possible . My sources, sadly, happen to be the multiplicity of Mod maps combined to together as feasibly as possible . My attempts at recreating the medieval era using historic maps always end in failure , as I have no idea on which provinces to compromise on .

  11. #11

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror
    The ungainly "northern" Anatolia province is an attempt to create a western Trebizond while taking the advice from Unknown Guy to make Constantinople a european province while still keeping intact Nicaea's borders .
    I don't agree with making Constantinople an European province because the Constantinople province in the game is roughly equivalent to the territory of the western anatolian cities, and the territory held by the Latin Empire after 1204, and territory reclaimed by the Byzantines later. In my opinion the Nicaea province is the one that needs some changes. I would divide it up and make it smaller, having the western part as Nicaea, and give part of the southern Constantinople province to this new Nicaea province, relocating Nicaea to it's correct position.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    These maps could be useful:

    The Balkans and Anatolia after the 4th Crusade:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LatinEmpire2.png
    Several maps of Byzantium:
    http://www.imperiobizantino.com/grup...xo%20mapas.pdf

    Pay attention to these questions:

    -Nicaea is located in the North-Western corner of Asia Minor. This region was historically known as Bythinia. Other important cities in Bythina are Nicomedia and Bursa, the latest being the first Ottoman capital.

    -The western part of the actual Trebizond MTW province corresponds with the historical region of Paphlagonia, which was the native land of the Komnenian family. Its capital could be the coastal city of Sinope.

    -The capital of the Seljuqs of Rum, Iconium, is located at the center of Anatolia. MTW Rum and Iconium are located a bit eastwards. I think that Rum could be replaced in central MTW Anatolia province while MTW Rum could be the Armenian regions of Melitene/Malatia and Sivas, the latest being occasionally the capital of the Seljuqs of Rum after its conquest by Kilij Arslan II in 1174. The coastal part of MTW Anatolia could be a new province called Antalya/Attalia, an area conquered by the Seljuqs and recaptured by the Byzantines again and again from 1076 onwards as the Seljuks strove to establish a trading base on the Mediterranean. In 1220 Byzantine rule ended for the last time and the city was conquered by the Seljuqs of Rum.

    -The European part of MTW Constantinople corresponds with the historical region of Thrace (most important cities, Constantinople but also Adrianople), and, together with a part of Northern MTW Greece, Macedonia (most important city Thessaloniki).

    -The North-Western part of Greece corresponds with the historical region of Epirus. Its most important cities were Arta (capital of the Despotate of Epirus), Ioannina, and the coastal town of Dyrrachium (Greek DurrŽs, Italian Durazzo).

    -The large peninsula in southern Greece is the Peloponnese, which was known in medieval times as Morea. The Franks founded there the Principality of Achaea and the Catalans the Duchy of Athens, and later the Greeks of Morea tenaciously fought against the Ottomans.

    -The Southern part of MTW Nicaea could be a new province perhaps called Smyrna or even Lydia but I am not sure.

    Well, I don't forget the province limit factor

  13. #13

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Thanks for the info Belisario, I have maps similar to the one in your first link.

    This is what I have done so far as regard north Africa. I have also slightly adjusted the border between Nicaea and Constantinople to place Nicaea actually in the Nicaea province.



    I have freed up 3 provinces (Cyrenacia, Sinai and Sahara) in doing this. Some may disagree with the southward extent of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia but those provinces did actually extend that far during the Almohad Dynasty and before and after that.
    Last edited by caravel; 05-27-2007 at 21:28.

  14. #14

    Smile Re: Maps and Provinces

    Caravel

    Changing the map makes all the difference. Can't be easy because it has been done so rarely, but imho the most interesting Mods are the ones that give you some new realities that way. On that theme, and sticking with Africa, conquering Morocco or Egypt should not be a pushover - one pounce and it's done. And they should have the strength to generate some real offensive power. I'm thinking of the crusader campaigns inside Egypt, and the Spanish/Portuguese lodgements on the coast of Morocco which never gave them the interior. In other words, how about splitting both into a coast and interior province? Entirely agree that Sinai and Libya were without much significance, but for Morocco to be one province when Spain is 7 plus Portugal, or for Egypt to be overrun by a single naval landing, has always been more than a bit unrealistic and removes serious campaigning in North Africa, of which there was actually quite a lot in our period. No other Mod has done this, but I think the historical arguments are sound.

    There's obvious space to do this for Morocco. Map is less kind to Egypt, but maybe a diagonal split of Alexandria from (interior) Cairo?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    I don't have objections to the southwards extent of the Maghrib provinces, but I dislike the loss of Cyrenaica. I can argue some reasons:

    -Cyrenaica was conquered by the Islamic Arabs by the first caliph, Abu Bakr, in 643/44, and became known as Barka after its new provincial capital, the ancient Barca. After the breakdown of the Ummayad caliphate, it was annexed to Egypt, although still under the same name, under the Fatimid caliphs and later under the Ayyubid and Mamluk sultanates.

    -The Arab tribes settled in the south-eastern border of Tunisia (perhaps better called Ifriqiya which in medieval times was the area comprising the coastal regions of what are today western Libya, Tunisia, and eastern Algeria) were an outstanding factor in the political scenario of this region. In the 11th century the Fatimids favoured their settlement there as a counteroffensive to the rising independent power of the Zirids in Ifriqiya/Tunisia. These Arabs were also an important element of the military structure of the Almohads, who enrolled them in high numbers.

    -Cyrenaica/Barka was a warfare scenario for the Siculo-Normans (conquest of Tripoli by the admiral Giorgio d'Antiochia in 1146), the Almohads (during the period of maximum extent of the caliphate), or the Ayyubids (campaigns of the mamluk soldier Qaraqush in the 1170s).

    A possible idea for Morocco could be split it into two provinces:
    -A northern province with Fes as capital and at north it borders on the Strait of Gibraltar.
    -A southern province with Marrakech as capital and at west it borders on MTW Moroccan small sea region (I don't remember its name).

  16. #16

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by western
    On that theme, and sticking with Africa, conquering Morocco or Egypt should not be a pushover - one pounce and it's done. And they should have the strength to generate some real offensive power. I'm thinking of the crusader campaigns inside Egypt, and the Spanish/Portuguese lodgements on the coast of Morocco which never gave them the interior. In other words, how about splitting both into a coast and interior province? Entirely agree that Sinai and Libya were without much significance, but for Morocco to be one province when Spain is 7 plus Portugal, or for Egypt to be overrun by a single naval landing, has always been more than a bit unrealistic and removes serious campaigning in North Africa, of which there was actually quite a lot in our period. No other Mod has done this, but I think the historical arguments are sound.

    There's obvious space to do this for Morocco. Map is less kind to Egypt, but maybe a diagonal split of Alexandria from (interior) Cairo?
    I agree, though it is not easy to divide up north Africa into provinces. The problem with the coastal strips idea is that the Kingdom of Fez, Zirids, Hammadids, Fatimids, Almoravids, Almohads, Marinids, Ziyyanids and Hafsids all held lands well into the interior, the coastal strip and interior province would seem artificial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisario
    I don't have objections to the southwards extent of the Maghrib provinces, but I dislike the loss of Cyrenaica. I can argue some reasons:

    -Cyrenaica was conquered by the Islamic Arabs by the first caliph, Abu Bakr, in 643/44, and became known as Barka after its new provincial capital, the ancient Barca. After the breakdown of the Ummayad caliphate, it was annexed to Egypt, although still under the same name, under the Fatimid caliphs and later under the Ayyubid and Mamluk sultanates.

    -The Arab tribes settled in the south-eastern border of Tunisia (perhaps better called Ifriqiya which in medieval times was the area comprising the coastal regions of what are today western Libya, Tunisia, and eastern Algeria) were an outstanding factor in the political scenario of this region. In the 11th century the Fatimids favoured their settlement there as a counteroffensive to the rising independent power of the Zirids in Ifriqiya/Tunisia. These Arabs were also an important element of the military structure of the Almohads, who enrolled them in high numbers.

    -Cyrenaica/Barka was a warfare scenario for the Siculo-Normans (conquest of Tripoli by the admiral Giorgio d'Antiochia in 1146), the Almohads (during the period of maximum extent of the caliphate), or the Ayyubids (campaigns of the mamluk soldier Qaraqush in the 1170s).
    The north African gains of George of Antioch were lost less than twenty years later. For the vast majority of the game's timeframe the MTW Cyrenacia province was split with the eastern part (Cyrene) being mostly under control of one of the Egyptian Dynasties. The western part was either independent or held by the Almohads.

    The reason I have split the province and left a dead zone in the centre is to prevent Crusades taking this route to the Holy Land. The other reason is to better represent historical boundaries and to free up provinces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisario
    A possible idea for Morocco could be split it into two provinces:
    -A northern province with Fes as capital and at north it borders on the Strait of Gibraltar.
    -A southern province with Marrakech as capital and at west it borders on MTW Moroccan small sea region (I don't remember its name).
    Splitting Morocco into Fes and Marrakech may be a good idea.


  17. #17

    Smile Re: Maps and Provinces

    Caravel

    I agree with you about transverse travel across Africa. More realistic to have basically two zones (Morocco and Egypt) that might be invaded or from which invasions might come. Noone would invade Morocco via Egypt or vice versa (alright - the Arabs did it in the 8th century, but that's a one-off and out of period!). If you've got the provinces, there's also a zone in the middle that attracted a couple of crusades in its own right - but I'd suggest less essential to realism than, for example, splitting up Syria.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by western
    Caravel

    I agree with you about transverse travel across Africa. More realistic to have basically two zones (Morocco and Egypt) that might be invaded or from which invasions might come. Noone would invade Morocco via Egypt or vice versa (alright - the Arabs did it in the 8th century, but that's a one-off and out of period!). If you've got the provinces, there's also a zone in the middle that attracted a couple of crusades in its own right - but I'd suggest less essential to realism than, for example, splitting up Syria.
    Syria I would cut in half almost vertically but the eastern half I would turn into a dead zone and remove along with the Arabia province. That land was usually a no-man's land populated only by Bedouin AFAIK. Any and all maps I have consulted have that land as unconquered by Fatimids, Seljuks, Mongols, Ayyubids, Mamluks and others. Euratlas also shows the same. Halving Syria and calling the eastern part "Mespotamia" is also wrong as Mespotamia would have been further to the east (near the rivers). Arabia could be retained as the coastal strip just about visible near the Sinai province, but it would hardly be worth it. Personally I would remove it an put it to better use along with Cyrenacia.

    I have replaced the Morocco Province as it is in the game. I have renamed the province and the castle "Fes". The Sahara and it's castle are now "Marrakech".
    Last edited by caravel; 05-28-2007 at 17:01.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Nice I agree whole hartedly. In vanilla, Islamic lands had the tendency to be overrun quickly because they lacked the fragmentaion of the western ones. Would you be partial to slicing Syria and Arabai down the middle, and keeping the western half as a province, while the east remains a Dead zone? This should allow the Egyptians (or Turks) a space in which to easily counter attack incursions into thier homeland, as was done throuout history.

    ou considered any part of my map? Just wondering.

  20. #20

    Smile Re: Maps and Provinces

    Caravel

    I agree about Mesopotamia, but my thought on Syria is that there were 3 states pretty consistently important - Mosul east of Edessa, Aleppo east of Antioch and Damascus east of Tripoli and the northern part of Kindom of Jerusalem. The key for the crusaders was to keep them separate from each other and from Egypt, which ultimately - after the own goal of the Second Crusade attacking Damascus - they failed to do. If you could split Syria in 3, you'd have a mirror of the real crusader situation (assassins apart, but they never amounted to a faction with potential for conquest). But actually, since Mosul and Aleppo were joined under Zenghi from 1128, splitting in 2 would do - it's a north south split rather than an east west one. East of Damascus, you're right, would be desert.

    It's your Mod mate, but I have been stewing on the map a long time, without the brains to change it!

  21. #21

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    I very much like the idea of the Syria split into Mosul, Aleppo and Damascus. Cyrenacia, Arabia and Sinai could all be used (put to a much better use) for those provinces. Consider the geographical borders of the crusader states changed so often a good map would be needed, but I am having no luck finding anything decent.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    How about putting in the Syrian "No man's land" a Hashashini faction?

    EDIT: And PD: Maybe Finland could be dumped onto Novgorod? It's not like there was much there besides Novgorod, right? (Covers from the Finnish onslaught)
    Last edited by The Unknown Guy; 05-28-2007 at 23:12.
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  23. #23

    Smile Re: Maps and Provinces

    Caravel

    I'm an IT dunce so don't know how this will appear, but you're probably familiar with this address which gives you maps century by century? The 3 emirates are pretty clear on it.

    http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm

  24. #24

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    BTW: The capital of Malta was certainly NOT Valetta at medieval times, as that city dates to the XVI century
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by western
    Caravel

    I'm an IT dunce so don't know how this will appear, but you're probably familiar with this address which gives you maps century by century? The 3 emirates are pretty clear on it.

    http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm
    That's the one I've been referring to mostly as it seems the most accurate. I suppose I can work with that. I'll have a version up tomorrow with a bit of luck.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    BTW: The capital of Malta was certainly NOT Valetta at medieval times, as that city dates to the XVI century
    I think you'll find a lot more like that.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Ok here is the map of the region based roughly on the Euratlas 1100 map. Note that this is not an actual working lukupmap or even part of one, just a rough draft.



    It looks rather drastic but personally I think it could work well, especially with the smaller and more realistically sized crusader states. The bright green and red provinces are the additional ones that will need to make use of Arabia, Cyrenacia and Sinai.

    Edit: If you have any suggestions, locations, e.g. of capitals or changes you can use my image as a template and make the rough modifications to that.

    Last edited by caravel; 05-29-2007 at 00:49.

  27. #27

    Smile Re: Maps and Provinces

    Caravel

    I like the look of what you've done - especially making Lesser Armenia an inland, mountain province (which it was). Map changes make it look great and real, not just dreamed up provinces. Let's hope LukupMap will play ball with you

    But I would extend Tripoli and Jerusalem so they meet. If you've conquered the 4 crusader provinces (inc Edessa) you should be able to move a land army between them all, as crusaders frequently did, shuttling up to Antioch to meet a threat there, or sending contingents south to help Kingdom of Jerusalem. The map of 1100 shows a conquest in progress, just 1 year on from crusade's arrival - so the Trip and Jerusalem borders are interim, not the more or less stable ones they achieved after another 10 years campaigning.

    Sorry I'm too dumb to show this on the map , but it just involves stretching Tripoli out to the Antioch eastern border, and stretching Jerusalem north to meet it. The actual Tripoli/Jerusalem meet should be a narrow coastal finger.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Quote Originally Posted by western
    Caravel

    I like the look of what you've done - especially making Lesser Armenia an inland, mountain province (which it was). Map changes make it look great and real, not just dreamed up provinces. Let's hope LukupMap will play ball with you

    But I would extend Tripoli and Jerusalem so they meet. If you've conquered the 4 crusader provinces (inc Edessa) you should be able to move a land army between them all, as crusaders frequently did, shuttling up to Antioch to meet a threat there, or sending contingents south to help Kingdom of Jerusalem. The map of 1100 shows a conquest in progress, just 1 year on from crusade's arrival - so the Trip and Jerusalem borders are interim, not the more or less stable ones they achieved after another 10 years campaigning.

    Sorry I'm too dumb to show this on the map , but it just involves stretching Tripoli out to the Antioch eastern border, and stretching Jerusalem north to meet it. The actual Tripoli/Jerusalem meet should be a narrow coastal finger.
    Yes I think I know exactly what you mean. I have a map on paper that I can use for reference.


  29. #29

    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Ok a second attempt, hopefully a better one.

    Last edited by caravel; 05-29-2007 at 14:19.

  30. #30
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maps and Provinces

    Whats all this fuss about province managment and squandering? the game has roof limit of 108, not 99.

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