Reality Check for Operation Iraqi Freedom II

[Odin]

contrary to what the propaganda machines have spun up, sad-man wasnt all that bad for a brutal dictator. He was responsible for the huge increase in education and health care in Iraq, nationalizing the oil industry which led to record profits, and while he stole alot of it for himself, there was great investment in infastructure and the economy making it the most propsperous, literate, and educated middle eastern country aside from israel. Sure, he was brutal against his enemies, but the vast majority of iraqis had nothing to fear from his rule and most of the clamp-downs came only after the repressive sanctions were imposed by the US and others. As has recently been brought up, we were bombing them for the past 10 years.

Thank you Zak, for a minute I forgot that the org is a site I come to for entertainment puposes primarily. You've literally had me LOL at the screen twice today and thats awesome (no sarcasm intended, you know I dont agree with you mostly). Your consistancy is most appreciated

[Gawain of Orkeny]

contrary to what the propaganda machines have spun up, sad-man wasnt all that bad for a brutal dictator. He was responsible for the huge increase in education and health care in Iraq, nationalizing the oil industry which led to record profits, and while he stole alot of it for himself, there was great investment in infastructure and the economy making it the most propsperous, literate, and educated middle eastern country aside from israel. Sure, he was brutal against his enemies, but the vast majority of iraqis had nothing to fear from his rule and most of the clamp-downs came only after the repressive sanctions were imposed by the US and others. As has recently been brought up, we were bombing them for the past 10 years.

Is there another poor soul on these boards who agrees with this?

[Ser Clegane]

contrary to what the propaganda machines have spun up, sad-man wasnt all that bad for a brutal dictator. He was responsible for the huge increase in education and health care in Iraq, nationalizing the oil industry which led to record profits, and while he stole alot of it for himself, there was great investment in infastructure and the economy making it the most propsperous, literate, and educated middle eastern country aside from israel. Sure, he was brutal against his enemies, but the vast majority of iraqis had nothing to fear from his rule and most of the clamp-downs came only after the repressive sanctions were imposed by the US and others. As has recently been brought up, we were bombing them for the past 10 years.

The funny (or perhaps not so funny) thing is, that you could say almost say the same thing about Hitler in Germany - great investments (Autobahn!), most Germans could do fine (as long as they did not decide to develop an opinion that went against the regime), actually things just got really bad when the neighbouring countries decided that they did not like being invaded.
And Hitler probably took less money for personal purposes than Saddam.

I share your sentiment though that living in Iraq or more specific in some areas of Iraq (e.g., Bagdad) did not really get better for a lot of people.

[Zaknafien]

Facts don't lie friends. Look into it, you might be suprised. There is no doubt Saddam was a criminal and a madman. However, his country prospered under his rule. Its the same way most Russians see Stalin as "the right man for the job" and praise him as their greatest of leaders. What the propaganda machine did to Saddam is the same thing it did to over dictators over the years, in places like Panama, Ecuador, Brazil, Iran, etc, etc. Its the same thing they're trying to do to Venezuela's president today.

The point of all this is, Iraq was in fact a much more peaceful and safe place under Saddam, and people could lead normal lives which is impossible today.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Facts don't lie friends. Look into it, you might be suprised.

I have and you couldnt be more wrong.

his country prospered under his rule.

You really believe that. What of the 5 million babies dying each year?

The point of all this is, Iraq was in fact a much more peaceful and safe place under Saddam, and people could lead normal lives which is impossible today.

So you favor dictators then and martial law? Normal lives? Do you have any idea of what your talking about? Is freedom worth nothing to you?

[rotorgun]

Only if you go back in time and serve with mine in Nam

See you in the trenches Gunga Din.

....he say's wiping the egg off his face. I hope I didn't step on any toes here Gawain. I only meant my comments rehtorically. I just get a liitle tired of all the so called "military experts" handing out jingoistic advice about what we ought to do in a war that they never have, or ever will be likely to fight. As anyone who has done so should know, it "ain't no Sunday picnic."

I honor your service, and would be glad to sit in a foxhole with you any time,
as long as we could be drinkin' a beer at the same time.

[Kralizec]

Facts don't lie friends. Look into it, you might be suprised. There is no doubt Saddam was a criminal and a madman. However, his country prospered under his rule. Its the same way most Russians see Stalin as "the right man for the job" and praise him as their greatest of leaders. What the propaganda machine did to Saddam is the same thing it did to over dictators over the years, in places like Panama, Ecuador, Brazil, Iran, etc, etc. Its the same thing they're trying to do to Venezuela's president today.

The point of all this is, Iraq was in fact a much more peaceful and safe place under Saddam, and people could lead normal lives which is impossible today.

Well, if you're not a Kurd, anyway.

[Ser Clegane]

You really believe that. What of the 5 million babies dying each year?

Come on, Gawain - where did you get these numbers from?
Iraq has a population of ca. 30 million with a current birthrate of 30 on 1000 inhabitants (source). There is absolutely no way that your number is even close to reality.
Even if I agree with you that Saddam's Iraq was certainly not "Happy Valley" (although there are certainly various reasons of infant mortality that could be discussed), there should at least be some real(istic) numbers be used as a basis for discussion.

[Lemur]

Is there another poor soul on these boards who agrees with this?

You know, I was holding out for a Flat Earther, but I'll settle for a Baath-loving Saddamista.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Come on, Gawain - where did you get these numbers from?

Off the top of my head. Im not sure of the real number but I do remember that thousands at least were dying every year and that we were being blamed for it because of the embargo. Sorry if I was off. The point is Iraq was terrible under Saddam.

I honor your service, and would be glad to sit in a foxhole with you any time,

The same to you m8. Ill bet your foxholes are a lot drier than ours were

[Ser Clegane]

The point is Iraq was terrible under Saddam.

And on that point I fully agree with you.

[Zaknafien]

Iraq was terrible under Saddam--but is more terrible under Bush, I'd propose. By the way, those babies dying had nothing to do with the sanctions did they? hmm.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Iraq was terrible under Saddam--but is more terrible under Bush,

Thats your opinion and your certainly entitled to it. But thats all it is.

I'd propose. By the way, those babies dying had nothing to do with the sanctions did they? hmm.

Did you read my post?

Im not sure of the real number but I do remember that thousands at least were dying every year and that we were being blamed for it because of the embargo.

It had far more to do with the Oil for food scandal and Saddam taking the money and using it for other things.

One things for sure your not a conservative. Are you one of those guys who joined the Army for the benifits and then got stuck in this war? J/K'

But really why did you enlist then?

[Zaknafien]

I enlisted after 9/11 because I thought our country was under attack. I hold two bachelor's degrees and was working on a post-graduate in classical history before i quit college and became an intel guy and delpoyed to iraq the first time. after return I went to OCS and became a military intelligence officer. I certainly did not join for any benefits.

After Iraq and Afghanistan, I've come to learn the truth of American foreign policy from the ground level, the "tip of the spear" if you will. While a fiercely loyal, patriotic American, I see the belligerance and corruption of our current regime, (which is not party-specific) which is ruining our country. We need to return to our roots as a nation and uphold liberty, democracy, and equality for all in the world-- not imperialism, exploitation, and greed.

[Zaknafien]

Oh and by the way, I used to be a staunch neo-conservative, flag-waving, bush-saluting maniac who watched fox news 24/7. For years I believed in the advancement of the american empire.

I think the famous quote is about the only ones who are pro-war are those who havent seen it?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

While a fiercely loyal, patriotic American, I see the belligerance and corruption of our current regime, (which is not party-specific) which is ruining our country. We need to return to our roots as a nation and uphold liberty, democracy, and equality for all in the world-- not imperialism, exploitation, and greed.

Well you will get no argument from me on this point. Seems were closer in ideas than I imagined.

[Lemur]

Oh and by the way, I used to be a staunch neo-conservative, flag-waving, bush-saluting maniac who watched fox news 24/7. For years I believed in the advancement of the american empire.

I would caution you, as a fellow Orgah, to avoid swinging to the opposite extreme. There is much to love about America, and much that is unique. Everything in the world is not our fault. Everything we do is not mired in greed and venality.

Don't hand patriotism and its trappings to the far right; they deserve the mantle less than most.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Here here Lemur. Whats happening. Have I been bitten by a Lemur?

[Del Arroyo]

Sadaam was never ever good for Iraq. Iraq's happiest days were before he came to power. The Baath Party did do a number of good things for Iraq-- but as for Sadaam, he fought a losing war against Iran, a disastrous war against the Western coalition, and starved his own people in the name of national pride all the while building bigger and more extravagant Palaces of Pleasure for himself. Dozens of these palaces were built during the years of the sanctions regime, using money that was earmarked to provide food, clothing, and medicine for the Iraqi people.

Sadaam never was and never could be in any way good for Iraq. The disaster which has resulted from the US's wishful thinking is an entirely separate matter.

[Lemur]

Sadaam never was and never could be in any way good for Iraq. The disaster which has resulted from the US's wishful thinking is an entirely separate matter.

Quoted for shock and awe.

[Whacker]

Quoted for shock and awe.

Well this thread has been bombed and shot to pieces so....

[Adrian II]

GAO report on rebuilding Iraq.

I don't know exactly how accurate these numbers would be, but some of the answers in this thread are much more interesting. Together they constitute a small study in denial. Posters touched by the affliction should (re)read Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly as therapy.

[Zaknafien]

Sadaam was never ever good for Iraq. Iraq's happiest days were before he came to power. The Baath Party did do a number of good things for Iraq-- but as for Sadaam, he fought a losing war against Iran, a disastrous war against the Western coalition, and starved his own people in the name of national pride all the while building bigger and more extravagant Palaces of Pleasure for himself. Dozens of these palaces were built during the years of the sanctions regime, using money that was earmarked to provide food, clothing, and medicine for the Iraqi people.

Sadaam never was and never could be in any way good for Iraq. The disaster which has resulted from the US's wishful thinking is an entirely separate matter.

While all that is true, its not the whole story.

We are never told that he led an extensive modernization program of Iraq that included:

* He redirected the control of Iraqi oil from international monopolies so that Iraq would receive their oil revenues, which caused a huge economic boom to the country.
* Iraq started providing social services to its citizens that were unprecedented in the middle east.
* He established a campaign to eradicate illiteracy from Iraq and free education became compulsory to the highest educational levels.
* The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free health care to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers.
* Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

We are never told that he led an extensive modernization program of Iraq that included:

* He redirected the control of Iraqi oil from international monopolies so that Iraq would receive their oil revenues, which caused a huge economic boom to the country.
* Iraq started providing social services to its citizens that were unprecedented in the middle east.
* He established a campaign to eradicate illiteracy from Iraq and free education became compulsory to the highest educational levels.
* The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free health care to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers.
* Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).

Linky please

You do realise your job in itself is an oxi moron.

Military Intelligence indeed

[Zaknafien]

don't I know it.. I do have access to lots of records and things though..

from wiki:

t the center of this strategy was Iraq's oil. On June 1, 1972, Saddam oversaw the seizure of international oil interests, which, at the time, dominated the country's oil sector. A year later, world oil prices rose dramatically as a result of the 1973 energy crisis, and skyrocketing revenues enabled Saddam to expand his agenda.
Promoting women's literacy and education in the 1970s
Promoting women's literacy and education in the 1970s

Within just a few years, Iraq was providing social services that were unprecedented among Middle Eastern countries. Saddam established and controlled the "National Campaign for the Eradication of Illiteracy" and the campaign for "Compulsory Free Education in Iraq," and largely under his auspices, the government established universal free schooling up to the highest education levels; hundreds of thousands learned to read in the years following the initiation of the program. The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free hospitalization to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers. Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).[11][12]

To diversify the largely oil-based Iraqi economy, Saddam implemented a national infrastructure campaign that made great progress in building roads, promoting mining, and developing other industries. The campaign revolutionized Iraq's energy industries. Electricity was brought to nearly every city in Iraq, and many outlying areas.

Before the 1970s, most of Iraq's people lived in the countryside, where Saddam himself was born and raised, and roughly two-thirds were peasants. But this number would decrease quickly during the 1970s as the country invested much of its oil profits into industrial expansion.

Nevertheless, Saddam focused on fostering loyalty to the Ba'athist government in the rural areas. After nationalizing foreign oil interests, Saddam supervised the modernization of the countryside, mechanizing agriculture on a large scale, and distributing land to peasant farmers.[6] The Ba'athists established farm cooperatives, in which profits were distributed according to the labors of the individual and the unskilled were trained. The government's commitment to agrarian reform was demonstrated by the doubling of expenditures for agricultural development in 1974-1975. Moreover, agrarian reform in Iraq improved the living standard of the peasantry and increased production, though not to the levels for which Saddam had hoped.

Saddam became personally associated with Ba'athist welfare and economic development programs in the eyes of many Iraqis, widening his appeal both within his traditional base and among new sectors of the population. These programs were part of a combination of "carrot and stick" tactics to enhance support in the working class, the peasantry, and within the party and the government bureaucracy.

Saddam's organizational prowess was credited with Iraq's rapid pace of development in the 1970s; development went forward at such a fevered pitch that two million persons from other Arab countries and Yugoslavia worked in Iraq to meet the growing demand for labor.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

NOTICE THE DATE. As has been said you could say a lot more for Hitler.

[Zaknafien]

Hey I never said he was a good guy. I said he did some good things for Iraq, and that they were better off under him than the current chaos and death that reigns.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

and that they were better off under him

And thats where we part. Your leaving out that he did a lot TOO Iraq as well.

[Del Arroyo]

Sadaam Hussein did not become president of Iraq until July of 1979.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im glad someone else noticed