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Thread: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    The Frankfurter Rundschau carries an interesting interview with an American archaeologist working in Denmark, Thomas Lawrence Thompson, in which he states that "the Gospels are not in the least interested in a historic Jesus. All we know about Jesus comes from allegories and fictional stories that are firmly rooted in the ancient literary traditions of Asia Minor. We haven't the first idea who Jesus was, if he did in fact live in the first century AD outside of stories that were told about him, that is. All we have are these stories, and all of them are considerably older than the first century."

    He compares the literary construction of the Gospels to James Joyce's Ulysses in that they recapitulate or present variations on older biblical and non-biblical themes belonging to the very rich common heritage of the Near East.

    Last year Thompson published a book on the topic last year: The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, London, Jonathan Cape (2006).

    I think it's fascinating that the demystification of both Christ and Mohammed has been gathering pace over the last ten years. A Dutch Arabist by the name of Hans Jansen has just finished a book in two parts about the life and times of Mohammed, based on the available historical evidence from recent excavations, textual reconstruction and criticism. I hope it will be translated into English and other languages soon. I have always been of the opinion that the history of religion is too important to be left to the believers, and that non-believers would be more interested in the topic once it was demystified and taken for what it is, a literary tradition like there has been no other in the history of mankind.

    Seasonal greetings to believers and non-believers, all.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Interesting interview thanks m8.
    I think I have to agree with him, afterall the Bible is fictional and non-realistic anyway imo (walking on water, turning water into wine), tho if people want to believe in that it's their decision, no objections to that.
    Haven't really read any of the books. Not Ulysses, nor the Bible (tho when having gone to Catholic schools for 14 years you pick things up). But the arguments in the interview are somehow strong, plus that you can never really prove the existence of any Jesus, unless you'll find his grave.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    The interesting aspect is that the Bible appears to be firmly rooted in the Near Eastern oral and literary tradition, and that cross-referencing may bring us closer to the original meaning and/or societal function of the texts, regardless of what later generations of believers or militant atheists made of them.

    The Near East was the crossroads of a world in great ferment, due to the benefits of the Iron Age: increased interregional trade, the start of the 'democratization' of military power, the invention of script, calculus and administrative institutions that enabled the foundation of large transcultural empires, and finally the emergenc of a wide scala of new world views. This was the era of man's coming of age. It has been called the 'Axial period' by the German philosopher Karl Jaspers because between 800 and 200 b.C. most of the 'axes' of modern religion and thought were laid by individual thinkers: Jewish and Zoroastrian Prophets, the Indian writers of the Upanishads, Guatama Buddha, Confucius and Greek philosophers.

    Come to think of it, there is not a lot of human wisdom and thought that hasn't originated in that era, and we have not essentially improved on our forerunners. Sure, they built bridges across the Bosporus whereas we build rocket-propelled bridges into space. But those forerunners established something much more important. They took stock of the main premises of the human condition: the struggle between good and evil (Zoroaster), the struggle between brothers (Cain and Abel), the futility of possessions, lust and even life itself (Buddha), etcetera.

    It would be a huge misunderstanding to think that those religious texts (such as the Bible) are 'just' fairytales devised to explain things that we have long learned to analyse and understand. On the contrary, they deal with issues and phenomena that we have never really understood, and we ignore or belittle their lessons only at our peril, from the story of brotherly rivalry between Cain and Abel right down to Gautama's rejection of the caste system.

    Anyway, I firmly believe that if one has any historical interest at all, this is teh era to study.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    I didn't do very well with the interview. Is he arguing that the Gospels were never intended as literal in any sense? If so, how would he explain the literal interpretative tradition that goes back to even Primitive Christianity?

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    The fundamental willingness of human beings to interpret virtually anything literally and go tell others that's the way - and the only Good and Proper Way too, mind you - they should do things, too ?

    Why, yes, I am somewhat cynical about these matters.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I didn't do very well with the interview. Is he arguing that the Gospels were never intended as literal in any sense? If so, how would he explain the literal interpretative tradition that goes back to even Primitive Christianity?
    In the final part of the interview he states that John's Gospel and Paul's written speeches are turning-points in the interpretation of the Christ-stories, i.e. they mark the transition to litteralism which you indicate. That is the 'radikale Verschiebung, was den Umgang mit den alten Texten angeht' : a 'radical shift, as far as the treatment of the old texts is concerned'.

    As for your first question, I found a few quotes from an earlier book of his, The Bible in History (1999):

    "Traditions such as the Bible's, which provided ancient society with a common past, are very different from the critical histories that play a central role in contemporary intellectual life."

    and

    "The Bible's language is not an historical language. It is a language of high literature, of story, of sermon and of song. It is a tool of philosophy and moral instruction."
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-06-2007 at 09:43.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Francesco Carotta thinks that Jesus was totally fictional, being based on none other than Julius Caeasar.
    This link:
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html
    Gives a summary of his thesis.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by derfinsterling
    Francesco Carotta thinks that Jesus was totally fictional, being based on none other than Julius Caeasar.
    This link:
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html
    Gives a summary of his thesis.
    I find the summary less than convincing on the central thesis. But there has clearly been a convergence of icons, rites, beliefs and literary conventions between religious sects in the Roman empire and this would be one example of that phenomenon. Another example would be the overlap between early Christianity and Mithraism.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Want to start counting Mesopotamian influences in the Judeo-Christian tradition ? Shouldn't be exactly breaking news everyone cheerfully plagiarized their neighbours' stuff.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Want to start counting Mesopotamian influences in the Judeo-Christian tradition ? Shouldn't be exactly breaking news everyone cheerfully plagiarized their neighbours' stuff.
    The news is that Jesus is made up and mostlikely never existed (for those who still believe in it)

    Read the article Adrian posted

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Too much German for me to want to wade through with my rusty skills this early in the day. Anyway, the personage getting all kinds of weird stuff tacked onto himself isn't exactly positive proof such a cult leader didn't exist, is it ? Far as I know it was a perfectly normal practice to attribute old mythical stuff even to living personages such as kings and rulers, nevermind now posthumously...

    Some of those weird apocryphal miracle-working tales I've heard about Mohammed sound kinda like the same principle - the person being associated with such deeds simply because it was obviously considered de rigeur for a prophet or about anyone else associated with the divine in some fashion to have done such.

    Dunno about what Roman sources might or might not say, of course.
    Last edited by Watchman; 04-06-2007 at 12:23.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Too much German for me to want to wade through with my rusty skills this early in the day. Anyway, the personage getting all kinds of weird stuff tacked onto himself isn't exactly positive proof such a cult leader didn't exist, is it ?
    One doesn't have to wade through the German interview to read my English synopsis where it is stated that according to Thompson the Gospels are not concerned with a historical Jesus. Which is not to say there never was a person called Jesus.

    Apart from that, I would object to the notion of 'weird stuff' - and so does Thompson by the way. The Monastery has a scholarly tone, not a confrontational one like the Backroom.

    Thompson's work has been severely criticised by serious scholars. One instance of a hard-hitting counter-argument would be this review by Charles David Isbell. In other instances Thompson and other scholars with a similar approach have even had to defend themselves against accusations of anti-semitism. Thompson dealt with this rather effectively in this essay on a website where, by the way, Charles Isbell is an associate editor.

    As you can see the subject is a minefield even among academics. That is why I posted my message here and not in the Backroom. I hope the spirit of the Monastery will be respected. My seasonal greetings in my orginal post certainly extend to all.
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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    It certainly was an era when all sorts of leaders were deified - admittedly the native Egyptians had gone west by then, but Pharaoh was traditionally a godly incarnation, various Middle Eastern kings were either deified posthumously or hubristically, and Roman emperors were 'Augustified'. So to be an effective leader one almost had to have a divine lineage. I remain open on the question of a historical "Yeheshua ben Yusef" the Nazarine carpenter, social commentator and rabble rouser, but have long believed the literary tradition accreted to him is a mythos rather than a factual account. Not only near-eastern traditions, but Egyptian too: the whole crucifixion / resurrection theme is blatantly Osirian in derivation, the "slain god" formula. So the central thesis that the "idea of Jesus" predated any "historical" Jesus makes absolute sense to me. And literal interpretation of accounts of a character so adapt in the art of the parable seems perverse.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    One doesn't have to wade through the German interview to read my English synopsis where it is stated that according to Thompson the Gospels are not concerned with a historical Jesus. Which is not to say there never was a person called Jesus.
    Fair enough, but then I was responding more to Stig who *did* imply the historical nonexistence of a preacher named Jesus.

    The later writings about the man having fairly little to do with his person and more with established portrayals and associations of divinity certainly sounds logical and credible enough, I'll give you that. Acute tendentiousness by posteriety hasn't exactly been unusual over the millenia.

    Apart from that, I would object to the notion of 'weird stuff' - and so does Thompson by the way. The Monastery has a scholarly tone, not a confrontational one like the Backroom.
    Oh, that's just my cynical irreverency speaking. Being a singularly irreligious person - not to mention rather sarcastic - I just happen to find virtually all religious notions to a greater or lesser degree categorically odd, even when their internal logic is intelligible.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Being a singularly irreligious person - not to mention rather sarcastic - I just happen to find virtually all religious notions to a greater or lesser degree categorically odd, even when their internal logic is intelligible.
    Point taken.

    In my irreverent youth I used to approach all religious texts with a good deal of sarcasm, too. But I have gradually come to understand that many Ancient religious and philosophical texts dating from the period mentioned were indeed axial, in that they were the first sources to address the fundamentals of human existence and the 'good society'.

    Modern socialism for instance (my personal persuasion) has its roots in, among other things, sentiments and insights first expressed by Buddha (in his rejection of caste) and more forcefully by the Hebrew prophets since Amos, who fulminated against social injustice and proclaimed, for the first time in history, that God was on the side of the destitute and the disinherited.

    If we want to understand, for instance, where Marx got the idea to put Hegel back on his feet and predict that the meek shall inherit political power and establish paradise on earth, we need look no further.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Very interesting Where do you think this book about muhammad be available, and what do you think the muslim public would think about it

    Do you know the title?

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Munqidh
    Very interesting Where do you think this book about muhammad be available, and what do you think the muslim public would think about it

    Do you know the title?
    Salaam aleikum, Ibn Munqidh.

    The two books are available only in Dutch, but the publishers are about to conclude the deal for the English language version. Won't be for this year, I'm afraid.

    For what it's worth these are the titles in Dutch:

    • Hans Jansen, De Historische Mohammed: de Mekkaanse verhalen, Amsterdam (Arbeiderspers) 2005
    • Hans Jansen, De Historische Mohammed: de Verhalen uit Medina, Amsterdam (Arbeiderspers) 2007
    To be honest I don't believe there is such as thing as 'the muslim public'. What I do know is that there are various precedents to this sort of biographical approach in the Arab world, e.g. in the works of Sadik al-Azm, Nasr Abu Zeid and Mohammed Arkoun.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-06-2007 at 20:58.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Well, I have to say that didn’t surprise me. The Bible, but more specifically is written after the death of Christ, merely 60years after, and report or the reports about what Christ said to his disciples… That pre-supposes disciples had excellent memory or they all know to read and write… At this period, big doubts… Then you have the problem of the report of what somebody else said.
    So the fact that Christianity picked in other Religions (Mazdaism, Mithra etc) isn’t surprising. After all, the Christianity is flexible enough to include Xmas, St John and different others Pagan celebration, and to build Churches where miracles due to others Gods did happen…
    The fact that you don’t have the direct writings of Christ allowed the Church to evaluate, in interpreting what we do know… Or we think we know…
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    So the fact that Christianity picked in other Religions (Mazdaism, Mithra etc) isn’t surprising. After all, the Christianity is flexible enough to include Xmas, St John and different others Pagan celebration, and to build Churches where miracles due to others Gods did happen…
    Well, the influences from Mesopotamia, Egypt (Osirian cult) and Mitraic Persia on Christianity have been mentioned. Has anyone mentioned the Hittites? The practice of appointing a scapegoat to bear man's sins, which is central to the story of Christ's sacrifice, appears to be Hittite in origin.

    But of course the most obvious and pervasive influence was that of Judaism. Of particular relevance during the present holiday is the Ascension, the story that Jesus bodily ascended to heaven in the presence of his apostles after his Resurrection. David Strauss was the first to argue in 1843 that this was a myth grounded in the Old Testament, since the motif was already present in the story of Elijah's ascension into heaven in a chariot of fire. This was widely accepted even among believers. I think this shows that Thompson's approach is hardly new, although he is much more radical in consigning the entire biblical text to the realm of literature, lock stock and barrel.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-06-2007 at 23:31.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    In the final part of the interview he states that John's Gospel and Paul's written speeches are turning-points in the interpretation of the Christ-stories, i.e. they mark the transition to litteralism which you indicate. That is the 'radikale Verschiebung, was den Umgang mit den alten Texten angeht' : a 'radical shift, as far as the treatment of the old texts is concerned'.
    I see. I couldn't understand how he could argue my first impression given a literalist understanding seems the norm up until at least St. Ambrose (5th Century).

    I looke up the 'Messiah Myth' on Amazon. Below is the full review of the longest and most favorable of the bunch. It appears an informed review.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "The Historical Jesus Quest is really composed of two quests. One involves sifting through the texts and developing methodologies for dealing with the data. The other involves situating the figure of Jesus in the proper historical context.

    The battle over the proper context for Jesus has been one of least-recognized but most profound of the various struggles among New Testament exegetes. After WWII exegetes began to strongly emphasize the Jewishness of Jesus. Laudably, this was partly in response to the "Aryan Jesus" of 19th century scholarship, that eventually found its apotheosis in Nazi doctrines. However, it was also in response to the arguments of scholars from the schools of myth and comparative religions, who had argued in the period prior to the Second World War that Jesus resembled similar figures of the ancient Near East and Mediterranean. By reinforcing the Jewishness of Jesus and delinking him from the surrounding cultures, New Testament scholars sought to protect him from the assaults of the comparative religions school.

    At first glance it is easy to mistake Thomas L. Thompson's The Messiah Myth for a revival of this school. Don't. The Messiah Myth does not attempt, as the comparative religions school did, to seek out parallels to Jesus and then link Jesus to them. Rather, Thompson attempts to recover the Greater Context: an enormous toolkit of ideas, themes, and observations that dominate the literature of the Near East, and find expression in all of its major texts, including the Bible, and in all of its major heroes, including Jesus and David.

    Despite the subtitle The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, Thompson's book does not focus strongly on Jesus. The vast majority of the work consists of exploring the Old Testament and other Near Eastern texts to show that they all make use of the same complex of tropes in composing their various stories. This complex of tropes includes reversals (of rich and poor, the powerful and the peasantry, the weak and the strong), descent-ascent motifs, messiah as priest, king, and warrior motifs, and similar structures and idea familiar to readers of the Tanakh and the Christian writings. Thompson thus does not seek to show that Jesus is a myth by close analysis of the stories about him, like G.A Wells and other mythicists have done. Instead, he offers a rich new context against which the figure of Jesus can be evaluated.

    Thompson opens the book with a chapter entitled "Historicizing the figure of Jesus" that is apparently intended as a critique of the various Historical Jesus figures that New Testament scholarship has produced. He observes:

    * "A wary reader does well to recognize the wish fulfillment of Schweitzer's figure of Jesus. His mistaken prophet is historical primarily because he does not mirror the Christianity of Schweitzer's time. But the assumption that this mistaken prophet of the apocalypse is a figure appropriate to first century Judaism is itself without evidence. The prophetic figure Mark presented, and the assumed expectations associated with his coming, belong to the surface of Mark's text. Schweitzer did not consider why Mark presented such a figure or such expectations. Nor did he consider whether the life of such a person and the expectations of his coming in fact belonged to the historical reality of first century Jews in Palestine, or whether both expectations and figure were literary tropes. Then the figure of the messiah might express Judaism's highest values within Mark's story does not imply that either the figure or expectations about him were to be found in early first-century historical Palestine."(p6-7)

    The opening chapter serves notice: the historical Jesus is an assumption, rather than a discovery, of scholarship. "Dating sayings common to Q and Thomas as an "earliest level" of sayings and suggesting a time between 30 and 60 CE for their origin is a conclusion drawn from the assumption that there was an oral tradition derived from a historical Jesus' teaching."(p11) From whence, then, stems this figure

    * "As we will see in the following chapters, the most central sayings in the gospels were spoken by many figures of ancient literature. That they are "sayings of Jesus" is to be credited to the author who put them in his mouth. Many sayings the [Jesus] seminar identifies as "certainly authentic" are well-known and can be dated centuries earlier than the New Testament. The very project of the Jesus Seminar is anchored in wishful thinking. Evidence for the prehistory of these sayings is so abundant and well attested that we can trace a continuous literary tradition over millennia."(p11)

    Having sounded the eschatological alarm, Thompson slowly bids the Gospels goodbye, and enters the world of the Old Testament. In the second chapter, "The Figure of the Prophet", there is much back-and-forth between the Gospel stories and the Old Testament, but by the time we get to chapter four, "The Song for a Poor Man", the Gospels have been left behind, and we plunge into a world of international texts from antiquity, each full of themes the echo, extend, comment on, and interact with, the recurring tropes that make up the Tanakh.

    Thompson builds his reading of the texts by searching out themes common throughout the Near East, collecting texts from many places. Writing on the Good King, he says:

    * "Some of our stories serve as memorials to the king, while others are dedications of a cult place. Thirteen of the twenty-one inscriptions are presented in autobiographical form, where the king plays the role of author as well as subject. Eight present the story of the king in the third person. The Idrimi stele (no. 13), which is engraved on a statue of the king, presents its first-person form by locating the closing lines in a cartoon balloon coming out of the king's mouth. In spite of the autobiographical form, some of these inscriptions are likely posthumous."(p157)

    The themes he builds function as tropes, recurring themes that appear in texts all over the Near East.

    For example, in the Near East there is a common trope: a "utopian, comprehensive, and transcendent" peace that is the goal of every king's rule. Thompson identifies this peace in many different texts (including in an appendix), including tales about Idrimi, Nabonidus, and Esarhaddon, as well as David.

    At his best when building his collection of tropes, The Messiah Myth falters whenever it comes near the Gospels, giving the impression that Thompson is wielding a hammer in whose presence everything attempts to turn into nails. After establishing the existence of a trope referring to the children and the kingdom, Thompson then turns to the Gospel versions:

    * "Of the six occurrences of the trope Crossan calls "kingdom and children" sayings, four are classified as independent and two dependent. Only the authority of scholarly tradition of the primacy of Mark supports the judgment that the very close variations of the saying "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:14) and "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of God" (Lk 18:16) are dependent on the similar saying in Mark: "Let the little children come to me; do not prevent them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Mk 10:14). This saying, nearly identical in all three gospels, clearly offers a common trope, but the primacy of Mark's version, including the phrase "kingdom of God" he shares with Luke, does not stand on its own merits. The assumption that Mark is the source for the versions of Matthew and Luke is unprovable. Similarly, that the saying in Mark is the most likely original can be shown to be without merit."(p76)

    While it is quite true that any sayings tradition is ultimately an assumption of scholars, that is not the case with the relationship between the Synoptic Gospels, where scholars possess all three of the relevant texts. Thompson either does not understand, or does not care to understand, the complexities of the Synoptic problem and the way that it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of most scholars that the first gospel written was Mark. Right or wrong, the priority of Mark is a conclusion, not an assumption.

    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark. Thompson apparently regards these writings as largely independent, and locates their similarities in the use of common tropes rather than literary dependence. This position is indefensible, and does nothing for the book's credibility.

    Nevertheless, for those of us interested in the New Testament and in the Bible in general, there are innumerable insights and understandings. Thompson writes with an assurance and erudition that commands our attention, and manages to suppress any pesky doubts that might arise when we observe his cavalier attitude toward New Testament scholarship. Using the insights he develops from the tropes he collects, Thompson is often able to correct scholarly misapprehensions:

    * "Like the 'kingdom of God,' the metaphor of my father's kingdom is not apocalyptic in the sense that it implies expectations of the end of the world as Schweitzer thought. It is rather a utopian and idealistic metaphor for a world of justice. In ancient Near Eastern and biblical literature, it is related to the figure of the savior-king who, by reestablishing divine rule, returns creation to the original order."(p198)

    Because Thompson functions at the level of tropes, larger themes that govern the structure of texts, there is actually little here that is useful against the figure of Jesus as a historical figure. Despite his complaints about New Testament scholarship Thompson himself provides no answers to the questions he raises. Showing that tropes are part and parcel of ancient texts simply undermines Thompson's own implicit argument against a historical Jesus, for many of the texts that Thompson uses to support his case are either about, or from, historical figures. Hence it is easy to argue that the Gospel writers simply cast their historical figure in the standard Near Eastern format, and dismiss Thompson with a wave of the broader theme. Mythicism will never advance until it begins to churn out detailed, verse-by-verse readings of the relevant texts that show precisely how they are built out of literary convention, pre-existent sayings, Old Testament passages, themes, and concepts, and literary tropes and broader mythic themes. For that purpose Thompson will provide useful insight, but no decisive view.

    Despite the title, those who come to this book seeking arguments against Jesus historicism will be disappointed. But readers who pick this volume in search of new understandings of old texts will not leave the table hungry. There Thompson pours out a cornucopia which this reviewer's New Testament-oriented interests cannot hope to adequately capture. I highly recommend The Messiah Myth to anyone with a general interest in ancient Near Eastern mythology and story, including the Bible texts. For them, The Messiah Myth will be bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, and a ferryboat to the boatless."



    In reading the review I found this interesting:

    "While it is quite true that any sayings tradition is ultimately an assumption of scholars, that is not the case with the relationship between the Synoptic Gospels, where scholars possess all three of the relevant texts. Thompson either does not understand, or does not care to understand, the complexities of the Synoptic problem and the way that it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of most scholars that the first gospel written was Mark. Right or wrong, the priority of Mark is a conclusion, not an assumption.

    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark. Thompson apparently regards these writings as largely independent, and locates their similarities in the use of common tropes rather than literary dependence. This position is indefensible, and does nothing for the book's credibility."

    If this is correct then Thompson seems to have left his thesis up to some pretty intense criticism.
    Last edited by Pindar; 04-07-2007 at 01:35.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark.
    Even if Mark was written first (as the reviewer has it), it does not necessarily follow that it is the 'most historically important' of Synoptic Gospels.

    If Mark's Gospel were indeed 'closest in time' to a historic Jesus episode, then this proximity, in addition to the nature of the text, would certainly make this the most important Gospel. But it is precisely the historicity of that episode which remains to be proven. Or rather: shown to be plausible, since that seems to be the highest measure of proof attainable for any statement in this entire field, given the nature of the available sources. In any case, Mark's chronological proximity to what was possibly a non-event does not speak to its veracity.

    An alternative view on relative importance of the Gospels might be that all four primarily or even uniquely reflect the preoccupations of the authors' own place and time, cast in the mold of the familiar Near Eastern tropes and centered on a legendary or even mythical Christ. If seen in this way, John -- being the bistro intellectual of the bunch and given to abstractions and sweeping statements -- may actually represent these concerns more eloquently than the other three. Hence John would be the most historically important.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-07-2007 at 19:40.
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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Most interesting, I will read this more closelly.

    On the other hand I assume everyone is familiar with this too yes?

    http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/

    *goes reading*
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar
    Most interesting, I will read this more closelly.

    On the other hand I assume everyone is familiar with this too yes?

    http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/

    *goes reading*
    I believe most archaeologists consider this a hoax.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    The Bible, but more specifically is written after the death of Christ, merely 60years after, and report or the reports about what Christ said to his disciples…
    Well mentioned. Now they say Christ was 31 when he died. So lets say that his disciples were around 25. That means that around the time the Bible was written (which surely took some time) the disciples would have been 55-85, and to become that old you had to be very special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    I believe most archaeologists consider this a hoax.
    Indeed we do, first of all something like that can't just be discovered by a Hollywood-film director. After the tomb (the Talpiot Tomb in Jeruzalem) was discovered it has been studied, and believe me if it would have had anything to do with Jesus the people who study the subject would have found out. I know little of it (my interest is Pre and Proto history in Northern Europe), but I rather trust Archaeologists then a filmmaker. imo it's the same as the Da Vinci code, mostlikely (99%) false.
    "I think it is very unserious work. I do scholarly work…," Kloner said. "[This film] is all nonsense." Kloner is professor of archaeology at Israel's Bar-Ilan University

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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    I believe most archaeologists consider this a hoax.
    Yes most do, not all, but the majority that is not willing to put their own credibility on the line with such a controversial issue of cource do.

    To me at least the possibility remains there, but I do understand tha many whose livellyhood depends on approuval ratings would think twice before accepting this as fact. And lets face it, it makes sence from a personal point of view, yet, those reasons are personal, and as such, if taken under consideration, also make the "expert" opinion, not so expert anymore.

    Human nature, what can I say, but lets not detract from the original topic :)
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Egypt (Osirian cult)” Is this one with the black Stone? I always wonder if the black Stone in the Mecca and this one were the same…?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    Egypt (Osirian cult)” Is this one with the black Stone? I always wonder if the black Stone in the Mecca and this one were the same…?
    Can you be more specific about the black stone? Do you mean made out of Black stone? Usually Anubis is made out of black stone, he was an Underworld Diety. But Anubis's cult was later replaced by Osiris, anubis became son of Osiris.

    As for the Ka'ba in Mecca, little is known about it in preislamic history other than it was a center of worship for the arabian polytheism that existed prior to Islam.

    The tradition of the annual pilgrimage to the ka'ba is preislamic, and all tribes of the arabian peninsula would stop any conflicts they may have had with eachother at the time for its duration.
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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Ahh..I see.

    You refering to the black-stone of the corner-stone, not the actual stone that makes the Temple (since its made out of granite).

    Well...that black stone is linked to Isis, who is linked to Osiris because it was his wife and also the one that resurected him.
    Duke Surak'nar
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Since I can not say anything that will change your mind AII due to the fact that your english is better than mine and my attention span is horredously short. I leave with this. You best not be talkin bout my jesus..boy
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    You refering to the black-stone of the corner-stone, not the actual stone that makes the Temple”: I don’t know. This is a reminiscence f what years in University. I remember studying the birth of Christianity and that was for the Roman just a new among the new religions, a new Jewish problem/sect, after the Rebellion of Judas, the Caligula Statues etc… And within the new religion one was qualified as the Religion of the Black Stone. But I do not remember which one (I don’t think it was Mithra, the religion of the Army, but I honestly do not remember…). So if you can give me more information, I would appreciate…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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