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Thread: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

  1. #1

    Default Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Not one faction .... but 4 factions. Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeench.

    The outline unit list is pretty much as follows:

    Chaos Marauder

    Mounted Marauder

    Veteran Marauder ( like the ordinary, but a bit nastier and 'touched' by Chaos )

    Mounted Veterans

    Chaos Warrior

    Veteran Warrior ( mutated and a bit more Chaos Faction specific. ) These guys will be different for each faction, where the ordinary warriors are not. Casuir has started work on these, and they will be a bit more 'nasty' than the basic warriors.

    Chaos Knights ( very nasty ) Mounted and foot versions..with a suitably chaotic steed!

    Chaos Champions. Not strictly a unit in the true sense, but these guys will be in as small a unit as possible, and would represent the generals bodyguard. I also plan on using a variant of this model as a leader model for the lower rank units.

    With the faction specific variations on the Elite units, we are looking at 17 units. Marauders will serve as crew figures for Chaos siege engines.
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  2. #2
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Are minor deamons planned ? Things like Plaguebearers, Deamonettes, and their kornish and tzeentchich equivalents.

    Would it be possible to have Chaos Dwarves as servants for warmachines ? Not the pretty blank chaos dwarves introduced by SoC, but the former babylonian-looking chaos dwarves. As they'll likely never be released as their own faction, it would be neat to have a few available to other Chaos factions.

    Or if you feel like doing it, a few Chaos Dwarfs units that would be available to the player if he meets some conditions.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    It's great to see that the Chaos faction is moving forward.

    If you're going to make Chaos Dwarfs, don't make them the old tower-hats. Better take them down the same route which GW inclines. And without those damn hats and beards...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    The only warmachine chaos use is the hellcannon, dont know bout bwian but I wouldnt be in a hurry to make that thing. Chaos dwarfs would be pretty low priority units in the grand scheme of things, they're off the map and gw seems to have abandoned them.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    The Chaos Dwarfs are far from abandon by GW, I can assure you.

    Anyway, I do agree that the Chaos Dwarfs arn't part of the map and should be on low priority.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    The lack of warmachines is something I have always wondered about in the armybooks. In my wargaming days, the chaos army was allowed to field rams and simple catapults. These were dressed up with chaos 'decorations' kit-bashed from spare soldier bits.

    I know it's not canon...but it's a thought

    The siege element will be interesting for Chaos factions. They will need to rely on rams to take out gates, and siege towers and ladders to scale the walls and storm them hand to hand. There is no real need to give them catapults to just bombard the enemy form a distance. Chaos doesn't approve of such cowardly tactics. Get in close and fight hand to hand.

    It will be nice to have some demonic units, but we need to make sure we have a balanced set of units all round for the initial release. Extra's can be added later once we have a solid core. I don't want to focus too much on any one faction initially, and right now, we have a lot of factions needing a lot of units!
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Will the chaos warriors for the four gods be identical to each other stat wise, with only texture differences? Are you saving those differences for the veteran warriors (which, by the way, I would rename to Chosen of Chaos)?

    The Chaos Army book shows very specific bonuses for the chaos warriors marked by a specific god:

    "Nurgle: causes fear." Can we use the fear used by camels against horses here? Make them cause fear against all infantry and cavalry.

    "Tzeentch: Generates power dice." This will be very tricky, depends on how magic is handled. Not sure how you would do this.

    "Slaneesh: immune to psychology". Thats easy, give them a high morale level.

    "Khorne: Frenzy". Since we cant do extra attacks without changing the animations, maybe just give them slightly higher attack number?


    Also, an idea to increase the Chaos players unit list in the Grand Campaign:

    Have an event occur sometime into the game, similiar to Gunpowder, where the Chaos player is picked as Chosen of the Gods. Suddenly he can start to build warriors and demons from all four of the Chaos Gods.

    It would be interesting if there was a chance for the computer to be picked instead (only if the event kept reocurring, so you would eventually be picked). If you want to increase your chances of becoming the Chosen One, you better start killing the other Chaos factions.

    But the computer being selected is a side issue, the priority here would be for the player to have more units made available to him, so later into the game he can field armies with a large range of troop types, and doesnt feel penned into just Khorne marauders, Khorne warriors, Bloodletters, and thats it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Have an event occur sometime into the game, similiar to Gunpowder, where the Chaos player is picked as Chosen of the Gods. Suddenly he can start to build warriors and demons from all four of the Chaos Gods.

    It would be interesting if there was a chance for the computer to be picked instead (only if the event kept reocurring, so you would eventually be picked). If you want to increase your chances of becoming the Chosen One, you better start killing the other Chaos factions.

    But the computer being selected is a side issue, the priority here would be for the player to have more units made available to him, so later into the game he can field armies with a large range of troop types, and doesnt feel penned into just Khorne marauders, Khorne warriors, Bloodletters, and thats it.
    I am sure that as the mod progresses, all of the factions will be fleshed out for more variety like bwian said. Also, I still think, if possible, that the uniting of the four chaos factions should be done as a 'crusade-esque' type thing, if at all possible.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Events are global so if you had an event which allowed such a thing it would apply to everyone, you cant pick who they applied to. Also they're set by date so it would be a set thing which applied to every chaos faction regardless of how well they're doing. If theres a way to set conditions on events it might be doable but again it would apply to every one it could possibly apply to, not just whoever meets the conditions.

    @ Gurkal, abandoned might be too strong a word but they've been left on the sidelines for a long time. I know theres a new book rumured but given the current release rate I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
    Last edited by Casuir; 05-26-2007 at 07:26.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Jargon ... the idea is to have the more elite Chaos units as seperate units completely so we can do exactly what you outlined...they would have different strengths and weaknesses. The Chaos Warriors are one model, dressed with 4 skins for each faction. The marauders will be the same. These guys are basically Northmen warriors of verying skill and experience, and whilst they will have an alliegance to a particular Chaos Lord, they have not been long enough in service to 'change'. By the time you start recruiting hte verteran warriors and higher ranking warriors, they have been under the influence of their masters andwill have been 'gifted' with certain abilities and effects. This means we have to have seperate models, with seperate abilities and combat stats. Khorne's warriors have distinctive horns on their helmets....Nurgle's troops will have...er....unpleasant things. They will look distinctive, and will have strengths and weaknesses that go with them.

    They will have become steadily less human and more Chaotic in proportion to their increased stats.

    It would be nice if we could have some effects that cause a uniting of the chaos factions under a warleader.... but only if the game will let us do it in a realistic way. I would rather have no such events than one that had the potential to cause unrealistic alliances with other factions that we could not control.
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  11. #11
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    I've got a suggestion. Some of us will want to play chaos so why not make Tzeentch playable? It's the only chaos faction that IMHO makes any sense to have as a playable faction. The rest have really got to be horde material, right?
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  12. #12
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwian
    The lack of warmachines is something I have always wondered about in the armybooks. In my wargaming days, the chaos army was allowed to field rams and simple catapults. These were dressed up with chaos 'decorations' kit-bashed from spare soldier bits.

    I know it's not canon...but it's a thought

    The siege element will be interesting for Chaos factions. They will need to rely on rams to take out gates, and siege towers and ladders to scale the walls and storm them hand to hand. There is no real need to give them catapults to just bombard the enemy form a distance. Chaos doesn't approve of such cowardly tactics. Get in close and fight hand to hand.
    Well, Chaos don't give a crap about what seems coward or not, as long as it fit with its aim, no ?

    I agree Khorne worshiper would hardly use long range artillery, as Khorne is looking for blood and blood only. But I see no reason why the other gods would not make use of artillery.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    There will be four playable factions for Chaos. Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh. They will all be different to play, and will have some unit variations... but they will all be playable and not Horde.
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  14. #14
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwian
    There will be four playable factions for Chaos. Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh. They will all be different to play, and will have some unit variations... but they will all be playable and not Horde.
    ok. Well that makes no sense to me, but you're the boss. Are we having any horde factions?
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  15. #15

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg
    ok. Well that makes no sense to me, but you're the boss. Are we having any horde factions?
    It might be cool that since Beastmen won't make it into the playable faction list, they could be added as a horde faction that pops up in multiple points? them being a horde faction (and perhaps because I know nothing of the beastmen) their unit list can be really short/simple.

  16. #16
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman55
    It might be cool that since Beastmen won't make it into the playable faction list, they could be added as a horde faction that pops up in multiple points? them being a horde faction (and perhaps because I know nothing of the beastmen) their unit list can be really short/simple.
    Beastmen are on the contrary very suitable for a playable faction since they have a social structure that fits great into the faction system of MTW2, and they've got plenty of units. They've even got their own army book.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  17. #17

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Beastmen are probably the least suited of all the races to be a faction. They're completely nomadic and dont have permanent settlements, even temporary ones are nothing more than makeshift tents. As for a social structure, the biggest and hardest one is the leader, thats about as organised as these guys get. As for having them as hordes these are just factions without cities, without capturing settlements they wont last long. Hordes are a great way of representing migrations and invasions by a race thats off the map, but theres no justification for using them for the beastmen.

    As for the other chaos factions they all come from the one area. If we made one static and three hordes the static one would just spend the whole game fighting off the other three. Having even just one of them as a horde just isnt going to work. First thing they'll hit is the empire, one of the biggest factions ingame who has friendly relations with most of its neighbours. We'd end up with no chaos faction ingame. Way things are now they have enough room to fight each other and if one of them comes out on top the lands to the south will start to come under sustained pressure, rather than just facing one big push with nothing behind it.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg
    Beastmen are on the contrary very suitable for a playable faction since they have a social structure that fits great into the faction system of MTW2, and they've got plenty of units. They've even got their own army book.
    I thought I had read that the beastmen weren't in the initial release, that's why I suggested them for a mobile faction.

    But it sounds like they'l be a playable faction as well. Guess no horde factions, eh?

  19. #19
    Warhammer: Total War Team Member Krazysigmarite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Unplayable factions would seem like a waste, why deny anybody their ability to play their race? They're playable in Warhammer tabletop, after all!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Sounds great,as a lover of all things Slanneshi,I will be watching this,might be a stretch,but a unit of the lesser demons on each roster would be sweet,there is some great art work on the gw sight,and I have the Slanneshi bible which has some great art work,
    gb
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  21. #21
    RnJ PR Officer Member Eufarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Oy Bwian when are the Chaos knights coming out bro? I cant wait. this is what i do everyday this mod is not out.


  22. #22
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Casuir
    As for the other chaos factions they all come from the one area. If we made one static and three hordes the static one would just spend the whole game fighting off the other three. Having even just one of them as a horde just isnt going to work. First thing they'll hit is the empire, one of the biggest factions ingame who has friendly relations with most of its neighbours. We'd end up with no chaos faction ingame. Way things are now they have enough room to fight each other and if one of them comes out on top the lands to the south will start to come under sustained pressure, rather than just facing one big push with nothing behind it.
    I won't argue the Beastmen point. I we use the term "suitable" differently. What I mean by "suitable" is that they aren't psychotic loons hellbent on destruction. And Total War is about changing history. What if the Beastmen decide to build an empire? But anyhoo I don't really care about the Beastmen so enough to argue this point.

    Back to the Chaos issue.

    The Mongols and the Timurids both come from the same area and it isn't a problem in MTW2, so I don't see why it should be for us. Another issue is that there is nothing in the army book that says that all chaos invasions are made like a straight line from the north wastes straight into the Empire. We can have them enter the map from any northern region, or even an eastern edge of the map if we want to. You're the one doing the map.

    Just because "the great war against chaos" is described as a battle between chaos and Empire in the chaos army book doesn't mean it has to be so for us to. It is about changing history.

    On top of this chaos is chaotic. They're suposed to be an unpredictable corrupting and devastating force in the game. I'd rather have them just like it. They are also described as a non-cohesive power acting at best very random. They only attack south when the northmost tribes have been displaced southwards for some reason.

    But I'm sure my stance has been made clear long ago. My goal with this is to make a fun game true to the spirit of Warhammer rather than copying Warhammer history. The army books aren't crystal clear about much, and there's plenty of interpretation to be made. Above all I'm the first person to bend if there's another voice against mine. What ever we manage to produce I'm 100% sure it'll be great.
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  23. #23
    Beauty hunter Senior Member Raz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Chaos Spawns.

    Are there any chances of seeing a spawn of chaos being implemented in the mod? I mean, they're just so good looking. In a warhammer kind of way, that is. <_<

    I could understand how troublesome the 3d model would be though. And the animations!
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Random, chaotic change is an essential part of Chaos, but there is a lot of guided direction taking place under the hood.

    In the rule book, Champions of Chaos are described as taking a 'road to greatness.' Every few centuries a mortal champion is destined for the greatest blessings of Chaos, to become the Lord of the End Times, the Everchosen. It is his destiny to be coronated with the Crown of Domination, and to sweep the world away in a tide of bloodshed. This is epic stuff, entirely purposeful and non-random, and lends itself well to the crusading system.

    Would the following steps work?

    1) Make the four Chaos factions Christian

    2) Add Papal States into the game, rename them Gate of Heaven (Or Chaos Gods, Warp Gods, whatever).

    3) Place a Gate of Heaven city on the northernmost edge of the map, the site of its collapse centuries ago when the Old Ones left, bringing Chaos into the world.

    4) Draw a body of water around it without any land bridges. Remove diplomats, spy’s, population problems or anything else that cause unrest, make it stable for eternity.

    5) Create excellent relations between the four Chaos factions and Gate of Heaven. Remove Papal States concern over Christian factions attacking each other. Remove unnecessary Papal missions such as 'build a church' or 'purchase a priest'.

    Would Crusades work this way?

    Some obvious downsides:

    -Keeping the Gates of Heaven royal family line alive. I guess making someone immortal is out of the question with MTW?

    -A single'faction' would take up an entire religion slot, but that will be inevitable if crusading is added at all.

    -There will be a strange faction on the kingdom list called "Gate of Heaven'. It will look out of place and serve no purpose to all the other factions. Anyway to hide this?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Who do we make the pope then? And what about the collage of cardinals hes elected from? And where exactly does the everchosen come into all of this? All I can see you being left with is a four way race to take a settlement rather than the chaos factions being united under one leader. A better way to realisticly do it would be to give the player a trait called the everchosen when hes defeated the other chaos factions and if possible link this to an event which gives them access to troops from other powers.

    Anyways Bwian made a suggestion box for ideas like these, best to keep them there and keep threads like these for discussion here for the armylist. Might be best if you stuck you ideas on how to make the game more fun and less warhammer in there too dr zoidberg.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86038

  26. #26

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    That idea sounds very workable and simple Casuir (of course theres the problem of linking traits with unit production, but anyhoo). About the Suggestions thread, if people can't respond to ideas there, how will general discussion for non-army list stuff take place?

  27. #27
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    I thought I'd whip up a suggestion for a complete chaos unit list.

    Personally I think we should use a different term than “veteran”, for level two marauders and warriors since IMHO it sounds a bit flat in this context. I’d rather we avoid using the names “veteran” or “expert” for anything through out the game since both terms are badly over used in the fantasy world.

    How about “Battle-hardened Marauder”, “Devout Marauder”, “Zealot Marauder”? Or using differences in equipment and basing it on that; “Marauder Axe men”?

    Or we can call the simplest Marauder unit “Northman” implying a commoner from the Northern Wastes rather than a warrior. And then the level two units we can call “Marauders”?

    I’d also love to include Chaos Spawn somehow. The best would be if somehow chaos units can turn into spawns, (randomly). An annoying feature with chaos is that gifts can be too plentiful and turn the poor bastards into this, being quite useless for anything but defence.

    No, they don't have any ranged units, (ie archers or artillery). It'll become a very interesting all assault kind of games when played.

    Now, to the list.

    How about?:

    Infantry

    Northman, (simplest marauder unit, light armour)
    Marauder, (level two marauder, light armour)
    Chaos Warrior, (heavy armour)

    Cavalry

    Marauder Scouts (lightest cavalry).
    Mounted Marauders, (also light but better)


    Faction specific units

    Khorne

    Special Abilities
    All units may charge without orders.

    Chaos Warriors of Khorne (chain mail)
    Unmounted Chaos Knights of Khorne (full plate armour).
    Chaos Knights of Khorne (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)


    Bloodletter or flesh hound (Are they even possible to make?)
    Bloodthirster (greater demon, elephant unit)

    Nurgle
    Special Abilities
    If it’s possible to give the rotting cow carcass ability to a unit all Nurgle units should have it automatically switched on for all of these.

    Chaos Warriors of Nurgle (chain mail)
    Unmounted Chaos Knights of Nurgle (full plate armour).
    Chaos Knights of Nurgle (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

    Plaugebearers
    Great unclean one, (greater demon, elephant unit)

    Note: A nurgling swarm unit would be cool. I have no idea how that would be implemented though

    Slaanesh
    Special Abilities
    Very high moral for all units?

    Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh (chain mail)
    Unmounted Chaos Knights of Slaanesh (full plate armour).
    Chaos Knights of Slaanesh (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

    Daemonettes
    Keeper of Secrets, (greater demon, elephant unit)

    Tzeench
    Special Abilities
    I have no idea. Tzeench is Mr Magic so I’m not sure how this will translate to MTW2.

    Chaos Warriors of Tzeench (chain mail)
    Unmounted Chaos Knights of Tzeench (full plate armour).
    Chaos Knights of Tzeench (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

    Blue/Pink Horrors
    Lord of Change, (greater demon, elephant unit)
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  28. #28

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Some things there are unfeasible, the rotting cow is an artillery projectile not a unit ability, elephants have a crew and can run amok whereas greater demons do not. Bar the demons the only new unit there is marauder scouts, and I dont see what use these would be.

    Jargon I guess the idea behind the suggestions thread is that a lot of these suggestions are being made at a time when they're not ready to be implemented or tested and in threads which are about different things. The focus of the mod is getting the core mechanics ingame at the minute so suggestions which arent really relevant to those parts run the risk of getting forgotten about.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Khorne
    Special Abilities
    All units may charge without orders.
    I was wondering how you would do this, then I remembered that certain units like French Knights can be a little impetuous, is that correct? If so, then a high Impetuous rating would be a great translation of Frenzy, along with a high attack/faster attack speed.

    Splitting Marauders into a lighter and heavier version would give more strategic options, although that would depend on how many unit slots Bwian has to spare. There is a definite need for a simple Northmen unit as local peasant/militia, Marauders could the be more about attacking.

    In Warhammer table top battles, mounted Marauders can also be armed with throwing axes, making them the sole Chaos 'archer' unit. Maybe the scouts you have proposed could be armed with short range javelins to fulfill a light skirmishing role? The normal Marauders could then be a bit beefier and harder hitting in comparison. The graphical differences between them could be minor, its more about giving tactical options.

    Is there any situation in the MTW game where a unit can transform into another unit like you want the Chaos Spawn to do? Also, I thought this was something that happened to major characters with too many gifts, rather than whole units.

    I would love for it to be possible to manipulate the rotting cow option. The uses for all things Nurgle would be tremendous.

  30. #30
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 5: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Casuir
    Some things there are unfeasible, the rotting cow is an artillery projectile not a unit ability
    Do you know this ability can't be utilised? Is it hardcoded? Is there some other way perhaps Nurgle could use the Rotting Cow Carcass? We could perhaps have some sort of artillery unit that shoots Nurgling swarms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casuir
    elephants have a crew and can run amok whereas greater demons do not.
    The crew is just graphics. I'd judge it as pretty amazing if the "run amok" ability can't be switched off. It's just a matter of finding the right flag, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casuir
    Bar the demons the only new unit there is marauder scouts, and I dont see what use these would be.
    Bwian wanted two Marauder cavalry units. "Mounted Marauders" and "Veteran Mounted Marauders". I kept the units and just gave them prettier names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    I was wondering how you would do this, then I remembered that certain units like French Knights can be a little impetuous, is that correct? If so, then a high Impetuous rating would be a great translation of Frenzy, along with a high attack/faster attack speed.
    This is not a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Splitting Marauders into a lighter and heavier version would give more strategic options, although that would depend on how many unit slots Bwian has to spare. There is a definite need for a simple Northmen unit as local peasant/militia, Marauders could the be more about attacking.
    If I understand it correctly, it's not the number of unit slots that's the problem, but the actuall work of making the graphics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    In Warhammer table top battles, mounted Marauders can also be armed with throwing axes, making them the sole Chaos 'archer' unit. Maybe the scouts you have proposed could be armed with short range javelins to fulfill a light skirmishing role? The normal Marauders could then be a bit beefier and harder hitting in comparison. The graphical differences between them could be minor, its more about giving tactical options.
    You mean like Jinetes? I'd rather have them devoid of any ranged units. I like factions that are extreme in that they have one or more glaring weakness' that they have to be weary of and one or more strength that they have to utilize to win.

    In Chaos I'd like to see them being extremly strong at melee but sucky in everything else, so the way they have to be played is to close the distance to your enemy fast. And also having some units that are extremly powerful, that even though they are good, they are few and expensive and need to be protected from flanking by the cheaper units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    Is there any situation in the MTW game where a unit can transform into another unit like you want the Chaos Spawn to do? Also, I thought this was something that happened to major characters with too many gifts, rather than whole units.
    I'm just throwing out ideas. Chaos Spawn are suposed to be pretty large and attack anything at random. Why not have them like elephant units but that they "run amok" easily or automatically at the start of the game. But we somehow change their movement so it can hardly if at all move. They'll be great defensive units capable of blocking anything, but hazardous to your own units. The perfect unit to put at the city gate.

    But I can't imagine spawns being at the top of the priority list to make because

    1) I'm sure they're a bitch to make.
    2) they aren't exactly useful (or shouldn't be)
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

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