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Thread: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

  1. #1
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    I have just noticed that the inquisition has appeared in Scotland which was quite unexpected.

    I know! I know! Don't say it.

    But, seriously I have but one question...what is it that triggers the appearance of the inquisition, given that historically I don't think it ever extended beyond the borders of Spain and how do you get rid of it once it has arrived.

    Thats two questions.

    Ok! I have but two questions......
    Last edited by Didz; 05-29-2007 at 07:09.
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  2. #2
    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    The trigger is having high heresy in that province(I think, probably wrong).
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  3. #3

    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    you get rid of them by either running out of people to burn, assasinating them, or the easy way of boxing and stamping.

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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xehh II
    The trigger is having high heresy in that province(I think, probably wrong).
    Well he appeared near Inverness and admittedly I do have something like 34% heresy in that province, so you may be right. Does anyone know the thresholds for this or is it an incremental risk?
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Pugwash
    you get rid of them by either running out of people to burn, assasinating them, or the easy way of boxing and stamping.
    Yes, I've heard of the 'boxing and stamping' expliot. It seems like the only practical way of getting rid of them.

    Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know the Scottish for inquisition as in 'Naebudy expects the Spanish Inquisition'.
    Last edited by Didz; 05-29-2007 at 08:54.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Hehe Didz. :)

    I think as well, it's possible to get an inquisition if you fail Pope missions when you're already out of favour with the Pope.
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  6. #6
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jambo
    I think as well, it's possible to get an inquisition if you fail Pope missions when you're already out of favour with the Pope.
    That's a possibility also. I had received a Papal Edict telling me to leave the English alone the previous turn, but as the English had just made the mistake of loading an entire army onto a fleet of 22 ships, right under the nose of my 360 strong Channel Fleet I chose to ignore the Pope and send the entire lot to 'Davy Jones'.

    My Pope-O-Meter rating was 8/10 and it dropped to 6/10 so I figured it was worth it, but perhaps the Scottish Inquisition was another unexpected penalty for my insolence.
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  7. #7
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Any province with large amounts of heresy can potentially spawn inquisitors (which is why you get so many in the Middle East portion of the map).

    There were many 'Inquisitions' across Europe, the Spanish one being the most famous.

  8. #8
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Always great to have a little Monty Python reference thrown in!

    Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
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    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    <historical simplification>
    the Spanish Inquisition was a late revival actually, but inquisitors were everywhere in the 10th-12th century, they just weren't as brutal/systematic/crazed as the 14th century Spanish ones, who were mainly used as ethnic cleansing tools by the crown.
    </historical simplification>

    And yes, they do spawn when heresy reaches a certain threshold.
    I found out they were VASTLY nerfed (neutered even) in the 1.2 patch though. For instance, if they fail 3 trials in a row, they get -15 Piety. That's always been in. Now, if they succeed in 3 trials in a row, they also get -15 Piety.

    Also, while Inquis are still spawned with high Piety and gain ancillaries really fast, now all agents save for priests have a mandatory 10 Piety score at creation, meaning they're all but immune to inquis (I have a good mind to lower that to 3 or 5 and see what happens). Since the thresholds for PublicFaith and ReligiousActivity have been lowered, it's not uncommon at all to have 5-6 piety generals as well.
    All that, plus the inquis base chance has also been lowered...

    All in all, I have yet to see the burning video in 1.2, and very few instances of roaming inquis actually smacking anyone with their bibles. So just wait them out
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  10. #10
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Well watch this space, with the Inquisition lose in Scotland anything could happen.
    Didz
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  11. #11

    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
    <historical simplification>
    the Spanish Inquisition was a late revival actually, but inquisitors were everywhere in the 10th-12th century, they just weren't as brutal/systematic/crazed as the 14th century Spanish ones, who were mainly used as ethnic cleansing tools by the crown.
    </historical simplification>
    Kobal, you're in the right postcode but not the right street.

    1. The Spanish Inquisition came into existence in 1478 (15th century, not 14th).
    2. Inquisitors were not "everywhere in the 10th-12th century" - they didn't exist at all for the most part in that period.
    3. The first inquisition was in response to the Albigensian/Catharist heresy and didn't start until late 12th century (1180s).
    4. The Inquisition established to crush the Albigensians was at least as "brutal/systematic/crazed" as the (post-14th century) Spanish version: thousands were tortured and killed, town-by-town and the quote from M2TW ("Kill them all! The Lord will know his own") is attributable to this Inquisition.
    5. The Spanish Inquisition was not "mainly used as ethnic cleansing tools": the Jews of Spain were expelled by monarchical order, not by efforts of the Inquisition, and the vast majority of conversos (Jews or Muslims converted to Christianity) were left alone if they showed no signs of heresy or backsliding. The Spanish Inquisition was used as part of efforts to repress and control the descendants of Jews and Muslims but they targeted Castillians, Aragonese and other 'old Spaniards' in equal numbers.

    It's worth bearing in mind that the Church has always claimed and still claims the right to prosecute heresy via Inquisition. Prior to the 1180s, this was not on a formal basis. The local Church would simply set up a temporary board of enquiry in an area where heresy was thought to be prevalent (or the Pope would set one up) and this board would investigate and prosecute as necessary. The board would last until it decided it had succeeded or until the Pope or a powerful local noble suppressed it.

    M2TW reflects this fairly well: if you don't control heresy in a province, the Inquisition will appear to do it for you. Where M2TW suffers is in not reflecting that the nobility defied the Inquisitors far more often than not: the idea that an Inquisitor could execute a senior member of a noble or royal family without the support of an overwhelming miltary force is laughable.
    As the man said, For every complex problem there's a simple solution and it's wrong.

  12. #12

    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    There were religious inquisitions throughout Catholic Europe. The English one was fairly effective against the Lollards, for example. Since St Augustine the duty of a monarch to uphold religious order and orthodoxy meant the use of the civil arm against heresy and schism.

  13. #13
    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by diotavelli
    Kobal, you're in the right postcode but not the right street.

    1. The Spanish Inquisition came into existence in 1478 (15th century, not 14th).
    2. Inquisitors were not "everywhere in the 10th-12th century" - they didn't exist at all for the most part in that period.
    3. The first inquisition was in response to the Albigensian/Catharist heresy and didn't start until late 12th century (1180s).
    4. The Inquisition established to crush the Albigensians was at least as "brutal/systematic/crazed" as the (post-14th century) Spanish version: thousands were tortured and killed, town-by-town and the quote from M2TW ("Kill them all! The Lord will know his own") is attributable to this Inquisition.
    5. The Spanish Inquisition was not "mainly used as ethnic cleansing tools": the Jews of Spain were expelled by monarchical order, not by efforts of the Inquisition, and the vast majority of conversos (Jews or Muslims converted to Christianity) were left alone if they showed no signs of heresy or backsliding. The Spanish Inquisition was used as part of efforts to repress and control the descendants of Jews and Muslims but they targeted Castillians, Aragonese and other 'old Spaniards' in equal numbers.

    It's worth bearing in mind that the Church has always claimed and still claims the right to prosecute heresy via Inquisition. Prior to the 1180s, this was not on a formal basis. The local Church would simply set up a temporary board of enquiry in an area where heresy was thought to be prevalent (or the Pope would set one up) and this board would investigate and prosecute as necessary. The board would last until it decided it had succeeded or until the Pope or a powerful local noble suppressed it.

    M2TW reflects this fairly well: if you don't control heresy in a province, the Inquisition will appear to do it for you. Where M2TW suffers is in not reflecting that the nobility defied the Inquisitors far more often than not: the idea that an Inquisitor could execute a senior member of a noble or royal family without the support of an overwhelming miltary force is laughable.
    Gah. I always mix up my centuries. By all rights and logic a date starting with "14xx" should bloody well be in the 14th century.

    Ahem.

    And I "knew" (or had a fuzzy truthiness recollection of) all this, hence the <simplification> tags. What I meant was that while it's most well known for a few specific crazes like Albigensians/Cathars, Bogomils or the conversos in Spain, the Inquisition ran trials during pretty much the whole of the middle ages here and there, on a case-by-case basis, trying to bring heretics back into the fold, not to kill them all. That is to say, the popular image of the Salem-like crazed zealot torching everyone at a stake or dunking witches is unfair.

    You're wrong about point 4 though. The phrase was not said during the trials, but during the subsequent crusade against the Albigeois, and the abbot who answered that to the crusader who asked him how to tell heretics from innocents when sacking a town wasn't part of the inquisition either.

    BTW, did you guys know the Inquisition still exists today (though it's now known as Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) ? Of course, they haven't burned anyone lately, but still, it's a sobering thought.

    @Patricius : the Lollards ? What, these idiots you find on every Internet board who just go "LOL" after quoting your whole 4.000 words post ? I hate these guys !
    Last edited by Kobal2fr; 05-29-2007 at 21:14.
    Anything wrong ? Blame it on me. I'm the French.

  14. #14
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
    All in all, I have yet to see the burning video in 1.2, and very few instances of roaming inquis actually smacking anyone with their bibles. So just wait them out
    It looks like your right. I am about to write up my Scottish blog for last nights play now, but the bottom line is that the Scottish Inquisition have so far proven completely inept. They have already arrested and released one heretic three times and if anything heresy in the North of Scotland is growing rather than sufferring due to thier presence.

    I am about to send a spy north to see of I can find out why this inquisitor is so useless.
    Didz
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  15. #15
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Is there actually an inquisition event ? I do remember seeing the event screen (I think) but never actually produced anything very significant IIRC. Code... anyone ?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
    You're wrong about point 4 though. The phrase was not said during the trials, but during the subsequent crusade against the Albigeois, and the abbot who answered that to the crusader who asked him how to tell heretics from innocents when sacking a town wasn't part of the inquisition either.
    Um, no. Arnaud-Amaury, the abbot who uttered the phrase was the Papal Legate responsible for the extirpation of Catharism. Not only was he "part of the inquisition", he led it. He was given this responsibility by the pope early in the 13th century and only became leader of the Crusade when it was called a few years later; even after the Bull proclaiming the Crusade, he was still the leader of the Episcopal Inquisition charged with rooting out Catharism.

    Hence, it is completely accurate to state that the quote is attributable to the Inquisition investigating Catharism - it was uttered by the leader of this Inquisition, in relation to Cathars and their punishment. And it is clear indication that this Inquisition was just as "crazed" as the later Spanish instantiation.

    BTW, did you guys know the Inquisition still exists today (though it's now known as Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) ? Of course, they haven't burned anyone lately, but still, it's a sobering thought.
    Yes, and I've met two members of the Congregation (one current, one ex). And, whilst they don't burn anyone, they do still occasionally recommend to the Pope the exclusion from the communion of certain individuals - effectively, excommunication.
    As the man said, For every complex problem there's a simple solution and it's wrong.

  17. #17
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    It's not in the events file at least.

  18. #18
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to expect the Spanish Inquisition?

    Cool, thanks.
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