Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 37

Thread: Oda, for PROS

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Looking for a key to unlock your game as Oda at Expert level? Try this....

    First, set production to build archers and a yari. As you have more koku than you need for now, get quality troops, not ashi.

    On turn one you can bring to bear 420+ troops on Ise while still leaving nothing without a garrison except for Kii. It's ok to leave it so because we are also attacking with the one unit that was there.

    You should have the Daimyo, 3 ashi and 4 samaurai archers to attack with, if you've juggled things right. Mino sends a unit to Owari to cover there and other provinces split their force to assure a garrison everywhere.

    So, how's this gonna kill the monks and archers that are in Ise? First, the AI force is all honor 0. Then, the AI is a bit too clever and splits his force allowing you to confront two monks on the hill far to the front. He places a monk in the woods on the right to catch you off-guard. The two monks on the hill will come down when you get close to arrow range. His archers are off at a distance and not a threat, yet.

    Now you shoot hell out of monks, archers on hold, and maneuver either an ashi and the Daimyo or two ashi to take their flanks. The monks are going for your archers. They may or may not actually reach your archers but the losses from archery and flanking units, plus a charge from the Ashi behind your archers can be expected to break the monks morale. Assign an Ashi to each to pursue them from the field.

    By now his archers are headed at you from your right flank. Face them and begin an archery duel. His last monk unit will come tumbling from the woods,too. Keep up the archery duel, prepare to receive his last monk unit with your ashi and Daimyo flanking again. When your other two ashi have COMPLETELY chased the retreating monks from the field, recall them as they will likely be needed to break the archers. Before you run out of arrows, reserve one unit's arrows to sting the monks into attacking. The last monk, when you break him, will affect the archers morale as they'll be close. (The first two monks were too far away to have much morale effect). A general assault on any units not yet routed should wrap it up. Pursue! Use your Daimyo to kill off the Taisho and they won't rally. You should lose around 100 troops, the foe usually half of his.

    Ise will now be under seige. The castle is large and may take 5 seasons to fall. DO NOT
    attempt a storm. Save your troops (probly couldn't take it anyway...) for the next province to be taken... Yamashiro.

    Set taxes to punitive for the first harvest. An average harvest will net over 3K. Build yari and archers, a port and a castle (I like it in Kii). Set taxes back to normal after the first harvest. (It was a WAR tax, see? hehe)

    While you're holding seige there is little threat cuz the other clans are also weak so your small garrisons are safe for now. I like to keep two units in Owari just to keep Imagawa honest. He's looking at Shinano so if I don't tempt him, he'll go there. Mori is still eyeing Tajima. Uesugi has four provinces to garrison so he's too busy, too.

    After each season the beseiged will have lost troops so shift a unit from your seigeing force in a chain to Kawachi. it's too valuable to tempt Mori there and Mori seems VERY sensitive about Harima and will try to keep in balance there, thus tying up his forces.

    When the castle falls, after 4-5 seasons, leave one unit to garrison and take the rest to the Yamashiro border. Using the same methods as before take as many troops as you can and attack immediately in Yamashiro. Try to bring at least one Yari, six archers and 3-4 ashi, and the Daimyo. Depending on how long it took for Ise to fall, the Yamashiro force can be as high as 540 troops. Don't despair, tho!

    You'll find the AI is being clever again and has split his forces. Advance to the hill
    in the center and place your six archers in two lines on the face of the hill with your foot behind them on the hill. The left flank will be taking the most pressure, btw. Advance your Daimyo to taunt the few units to the front and a monk will come running to attack. Archers will probly rout him by themselves. Before long more monks will come from the left flank. Use archery, frontal and flank attacks to take them out. It's easier than it seems cuz they don't come united. They can be defeated in detail. It's important to use the archers as the holding force, counter-attack with troops from behind them and the flank. As before, almost all of the AI force is honor 0 and once you get one running the rest get shaken badly. Having elevation and using archery and flanking units makes Yamashiro yours before the 3rd year is over.

    Why, you may ask, should you risk this strategy? Well, left alone these forces will grow and they can receive a Taisho with rank enough to make it a lot worse. The longer you wait, the more you'll need and lose in taking them later. By attacking early you remove immense threats, freeing up all the garrison units normally used to surround Ise and Yamashiro, increase your koku by about 800 and it all happens BEFORE your rival clans can create large threats on your borders. Best of all, you will capture a castle in Yamashiro and Ise and ANY unit created in Yamashiro comes with honor 1! With a six year investment (already begun) you can be turning out honor 1 monks in Kii, AND honor 1 ashi in Owari, AND honor 1 archers or yari in Yamashiro in just 4 more seasons.

    I want to point out, again, that this strategy may well be useful only to pros who feel some assurance in taking on monks with only ashi and archers.

    Your thoughts are invited.

    (PS: I've posted an Addendum, farther down. It expands a bit on variation in AI defense)

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 04-13-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 04-13-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 04-13-2001).]
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  2. #2
    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    2,079

    Default

    Shai-san, as your drive-by postings go, this must be the equivalent of running the victim over with a tank.

    But a very nice strategy, and it gets bonus points for being an Oda strategy. I'll have to try that, getting slaughtered by WM might be interesting for a change.
    "It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this".
    - Yamamoto Tsunetomo: Hagakure

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Umm, you're saying it's verbose, yes? lol

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  4. #4
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Western New Yuck
    Posts
    7,914

    Default

    An interesting strategy Shai.After I finish my Shimazu campaign using JoBeare's plan I'll have to give it a try.I think I'll mix a few more YS and less YA though.I have crap luck using YA against monks,they always seem to break at the critical moment in battle for me.Beating the monks in piecemeal fashion is definitely the way to go when you don't have monks yourself,if you can get them to cooperate that is.How often did your Daimyo find himself standing all alone against several units of pissed off monks while your YA's were high stepping off the map BTW?I tried a similar tactic in Kaga as Uesugi and got my head placed on a pike in their temple LOL!Kaga's terrain is more difficult though and it took longer to get there too,allowing them time to build up their army.It's worth a shot,I like that thinking out of the box.
    Tito
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Tito... In fact, none of my units routed. The first monk unit in both Ise and Yamashiro gets pounded pretty badly and my ashi rout him with just a charge. Then a little scuffle with the second and he joins the rout, too! The morale effect of routed monks is at least as bad as that of routed yari. Other monks will sometimes fold without even fighting. Of course, these are honor 0 monks we're talking about.

    Kaga is a different ballgame, friend. The monks there are Honor 2! They have the high ground and get the elevation advantage for archery and the damned charge/Monk bonus. If they get a 'push' you're even worse off.

    With them it would be wise to set up a pocket lined by archers, send in a couple of units to lure the monks down into the pocket and then reverse direction with what's left of the lures, pound them with arrows and flank attack. My last attack in Kaga cost me almost 600 troops. It was a learning experience..hehe

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  6. #6
    Member Member hecose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    194

    Default

    A few of my worst losses / nightmares have been in Kaga... *sob* *sob*. I still remember staring at the screen after a battle with hands shaking and mouth open in disbelief. Since then I have never dared to attack Kaga without my own monks. Sometimes I even wait until I have the same number of monks before I attack.

    So I guess I don't have the guts to use ashigaru against monks yet.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Hecose.... Maybe I should reiterate, it's NOT the ashi that meet the monks head-on, it's the archers. They'll hold them and you should already have had your ashi moving to get their flanks before they get there.

    Think of the ashi as low-grade cavalry. Set them on the flanks to begin with. When the monks are getting close to the archers your ashi should already be dashing forward to get behind them or on their flank. When they hit your archers they'll use up their charge bonus. Your archers should keep shooting, NOT switch to swords. Monk armor is weak and arrows show no mercy to the weak(armored, that is). The ashi get to charge (bonus) and either a flank or rear attack (bonus) while the monks are halted, threatened, and cut off from their Taisho's morale boost. If you've got another ashi behind the archers, charge those in, too. 0 honor monks have their breaking point and I have yet to see one such run through an arrow shower, meet samurai in hold, and take a rear/flank attack without breaking.

    Hmmm... A thought just occured to me. Maybe the reason the monks come to me is that I DON'T have any quality troops? If you go at them with too many YS they might just wait for you to attack them first. Things might not play out well that way.
    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 04-13-2001).]
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  8. #8
    Member Member hecose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    194

    Default

    ShaiHulud, now I understand your point. In my games, I am too used to using yari ashigaru / yari samurai on hold formation and hold position while my archers retreat a little to continue shooting.

    I have seldom used ashigaru in my games (actually in terms of history that's not very accurate), and I definitely don't use as much flanking (whether with ashigaru or not) as I'd like to. I should consider these techniques to help me improve.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    As an addendum, there are variations on the attack as described in Ise, for instance. The one I previously gave is when the AI Taisho is an archer unit. He holds it back (centered between the two monk forces) for reasons the AI, alone, can tell you. Splitting the monks he allows you to take them in detail, concentrating firepower and maneuver to advantage.

    But, what happens if the Taisho is one of the monks? It turns out that makes it even easier. The monk Taisho invariably is the lone monk in the woods on the right. These are PROUD monks. I just ran thru two more times and got almost exactly the same results. The Taisho charged into my archers fire, unsupported by the other monks who are too far away to render assistance. The decimated unit didn't get to the archers. My flanking ashi and Daimyo units caused a rout before contact. My Daimyo killed the Taisho in pursuit. When the rest of the AI force, belatedly, showed up the fleeing remnants of the Taisho's unit, still pursued by Daimyo and Ashi, infected them with pessimism and they refused to stand and fight. My losses for the two battles were, respectively, 23 and 22 vs 70+ and 60+ for the AI. Most of my losses resulted from his archery, before they broke. The rest are from his routed units running thru my ashi and archers.

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  10. #10
    Member Member Tone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    543

    Default

    Shai:

    Just tried your opening, I like it. I got the taisho charging me too. Wiped his unit out the others ran under archer fire and a charge, that didn't even make contact, lost 25 men. Never really tried taking on the monks early before. Being able to free up the garrisons makes a huge difference. Don't play Oda much for that reason, but that may change now.

    Thanks

  11. #11
    Member Member EasyCo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    USA, Phoneix Arizona
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Hail ShaiHulud...Hail ShaiHulud....Hail ShaiHulud. I won. Oda Hard. thank you

    EasyCo
    Takeda war banner: Swift as the wind
    Silent as a forest
    Fierce as fire
    Immovable as a mountains
    EasyCo Dojo

  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Yah.. I always hated watching the force in Ise and Yamashiro grow while I could do nothing. It's amazing how FREE you feel with those two cleared out early. hehe

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  13. #13
    Member Member EasyCo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    USA, Phoneix Arizona
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Do you think you can "unlock" the Imagawa? How about it ShaiHulud? That it is hard....I think so. I can "easy" and some times "normal". But not the expert.

    EasyCo

    Takeda war banner: Swift as the wind
    Silent as a forest
    Fierce as fire
    Immovable as a mountains
    EasyCo Dojo

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Easyco....One, I think there already is a lot posted for Imagawa. Two, JoBeare says he's going to post his for Imagawa. I expect a search for Imagawa will turn up a library of thought on the subject.

    In a nutshell, the theories tend to be "surrender the western/eastern provinces and consolidate". Either can work but I'm averse to giving up my lands.... seems ahistorical to me.

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    2,749

    Default

    EasyCo I think I have seen you around at Lanzas site but there is a good guide there on Imagawa. Also there was a thread here a while ago that covered it so do a search for it.

    ------------------
    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon
    DP is correct - Shiro

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Phoenix... New icon! Neat!

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    2,749

    Default

    Thanks Shai.

    I like your icon too.

    ------------------
    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon
    DP is correct - Shiro

  18. #18
    Member Member EasyCo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    USA, Phoneix Arizona
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Hi Dark Phoenix, I have JoBeare for Shimazu. I cant wait the Imagawa. Now I made a copy of the post ShaiHulud and JoBeare it is in the Prima's Strategy Guide. hehe.

    EasyCo
    Monto sect Monks: 'He who advance is sure of heaven,but he who retreat of eternal damnation.'



    ------------------
    Takeda war banner: Swift as the wind
    Silent as a forest
    Fierce as fire
    Immovable as a mountains
    EasyCo Dojo

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Easyco... What is the 'Prima Strategy Guide'?

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  20. #20
    Summa Rudis Senior Member Catiline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Dubai
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    Tried this today Shai it works a treat, though I forgot to attack first turn, DOH. Went in next turn with a Yari Sam i'd built and i think you're right they're much much harder to tempt down with those boys hanging around. still makes a huge difference early on, and all through until I realised I'd left disk 2 in Durham. No disk2 + no throne room equals no guns, a major pain when you're playing Oda. Still this ought to keep me busy instead of revising when i get back to uni, never won as oda.

    I'm getting fond of Ashi what with this thread, the one specifically on thme and a days experimentation today. Quite useful used correctly.

    ------------------
    It's not a bug, it's a feature
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Cat.. "It works a treat", "knackered".. hehe, I love the way you guys talk!

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  22. #22
    Member Member EasyCo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    USA, Phoneix Arizona
    Posts
    77

    Default

    It is stratagy guide.

    http://www.primagames.com/

    EasyCo
    Takeda war banner: Swift as the wind
    Silent as a forest
    Fierce as fire
    Immovable as a mountains
    EasyCo Dojo

  23. #23
    Summa Rudis Senior Member Catiline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Dubai
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    Where did I say knackered?

    ------------------
    It's not a bug, it's a feature
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Was probly one of your compatriots. I also love, "Too dear"...hehe

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  25. #25
    Member Member Jackson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    49

    Default

    ShaiHulud, thanks for the great advice. I've been struggling with an Oda campaign for the last week, trying to win on "hard" without any reloads. I got my ass handed to me twice, but I'm making some good progress on my third try. I'm going to scrap that game tonight and start a new one with your strat. It is very similar to the Mori strategy of taking all, or most of, Tekeda's western lands on the first turn.


  26. #26
    Member Member smoothdragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Is making units in Yamashiro worth it? True, every unit there receives a +1 bonus. But there are no iron deposits in Yamashiro, so units made there are at a disadvantage when it comes to defense. Does the +1 honor outweigh the lack of armor upgrades?

  27. #27
    Member Member JoBeare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default

    ShaiHulud - Nice opening stategy and tactics in Yamashiro and Ise. I was wondering if there was enough time to pop up to Echizen in between Ise and Yamashiro. It's lightly defended by comparison to Yamashiro and has a pretty decent kuku value. I usually attack Echizen first, but that is going to change.

    What's next? Tech up, attack Imagawa, attack Mori, attack Uesugi, continue against the ronin? So many enemies. So little time.

    Smoothdragon - Yamashiro is a good place to put a archery and horse dojo. Armour isn't a whole lot of use to archers unless you like to trade arrows with the enemy.

    JoBeare

    [This message has been edited by JoBeare (edited 04-18-2001).]

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Jackson... I'm really glad you and others found it useful. Like you, I got tired of losing with Oda.

    I'd taken a month off the game recently and when I returned I tried Oda again. Out of annoyance (and inviting early disaster) I decided to look for a way to beat the monks, who are a constant thorn in Oda's hide. To my amazement, when I attacked it was 'deja vu'. I'd seen this before! But, this time, I was more experienced. (it's been that long since I'd given up on Oda) Now, having more confidence in my handling of ashi, I decided to try to defeat them in detail. Replaying the battle showed that, with little variation, the AI approached its defence the same way, every time. Its over-confidence in the monks plays into your hands.

    At Yamashiro, again, deja vu! A tougher battle but, again, over-confidence in monks plays into your hands.

    Smooth... Like JB, I build an archery dojo there first. It's an edge that only Imagawa can match early. In Mino I build a Spear dojo, armory, etc. I don't like defending Owari so I don't improve much there til it's very safe.

    After the archery dojo, I build a teahouse for the bonus. You'll see a LOT of dead ninja because of this build early.

    Without offering an extended strategy I do offer this. It's tempting to go after the Ronin island. I think it inadvisable at this point. Settle with Mori and Takeda in the West. Hold the chokepoint at Awaji.

    Extending beyond it is risky and requires careful handling cuz Shimazu will be taking Iyo and that borders on all 3 of the rest of the island provinces. His peaceful nature isn't written in granite.

    Further, if you ignore Mori for the island you'll still have Kawachi and Awaji and Sanuki to garrison against him, once they are taken. Far better is to take Harima, Tajima, Mimisaka, Bizen. They have his best koku and production and Bizen is a choke point for the island. It's also very likely he'll die defending leaving only Takeda to fence with there.

    JB... Echizen is easy... just bring enough numbers and they'll retreat. Problem is while you're over there the treacherous Mori
    will usually be ready to strike.Also, by ignoring Yamashiro the AI may well add more monks, maybe get a ranked Taisho in Yamashiro.

    I wait till I've built enough troops to garrison Mino well and have extra to take Echizen. Since it's an easy victory I use it to bump up a new general's or the Heir's victory count. The Daimyo goes west and takes on Mori.

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 04-18-2001).]
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    2,266

    Default

    Oda for Prozac? Avoid rain when using this beginning strategy...hehe

    I just started another game as Oda. Got rain in Ise... waited and got a cold day, AI had a new formation... all 3 monks and 3 archers together. Monks came at me together. Scratch one ashi army..hmmm, this requires looking into....

    New game.. Ise went according to the strategy tho Monk Taisho was alone, all others behind center hill. Tougher cuz routed
    unit was past others before they got to me..no morale effect save loss of their Taisho. My losses in the 100 range.

    Then to Yamashiro... Rain again... best I could get was light rain. AI hid ALL his monks in the woods to the left, 3 archers to the front. Couldn't lure them out,his archers went, one by one, to meet the monks at the woods. Archery battle got the Archer Taisho (and other archers)to rout, I pursued and killed him. Monks FINALLY came out of the woods....behind my pursuing forces. Quick reverse routs them... all save one, too far away again, who proceeds to battle for the honor of the Emperor. A win but my losses were 281 vs 250....Daimyo was holding against 35 monks, guards all dead, for an archer and a recalled ashi to rescue him. I gave the one remaining Yari the head of the enemy Taisho to honor his unit.

    So, it's a good strategy, but it ain't gospel... be prepared to maneuver mightily on occasion.

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  30. #30
    Member Member JoBeare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default

    That's why it's for pros. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    So would you say the next logical step would be to take Harima and then Mimasaka.

    JoBeare

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO