Bang per buck: Melee cavalry

[Phog]

Can't edit my posts yet *grumble* *grumble*

Never shoud have let my old username lapse....oh well.

Anyway! Question, in your research which Cav units stand up better than most in sustained meele? And did better meele stats affect their charge attack rating at all?

And you don't have to do any math for this one I am just looking for opinions.


- Phog

[Doug-Thompson]

Can't edit my posts yet *grumble* *grumble*

Never shoud have let my old username lapse....oh well.

Anyway! Question, in your research which Cav units stand up better than most in sustained meele? And did better meele stats affect their charge attack rating at all?

And you don't have to do any math for this one I am just looking for opinions.


- Phog

Foz is right. All these numbers will result in a cavalry guide that discusses the strengths and weaknesses of each unit with the benefit of comments based on gameplayers' experiences with them. For now, I'd refer you to Foz' comments on Norse War Clerics, a unit for Denmark.

I thought about dividing units between categories — router pursuers, hit and run, hit and stay — but there are too many types. It would be better to look closely at the characteristics of each. If some categories become apparent after that, fine.

I'm not abandoning Miracle's formula, however. I think it provides a very valuable basis of comparison between similar units.

[Doug-Thompson]

One obvious thing was left out of the formula: Hitpoints. Bodyguard units and elephants have more than one hitpoint. This should double the score for bodyguards, for instance.

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Phog:

You asked what the best cavalry was for sustained melee. One good indicator is: What units can survive it?

Here's the cavalry ranked by best overall defense stats, best to worse and excluding bodyguard units. Note the high rank of the Norse War Clerics.


Tsars_Guard
Norse War Clerics
Quapukulu
Royal_Mamluks
Conquistadores
Norman_Knights
Polish_Knights
Chivalric_Knights
Polish_Guard
Crusader_Knights
Noble_Knights
Christian_Guard
Teutonic_Knights
Knights_Hospitaller
Knights_of_Santiago
Knights_Templar
E_Chivalric_Knights
Serbian_Knights
Royal_Banderium
Huscarls
Lancers
Imperial_Knights
Kataphractoi
English_Knights
Portuguese_Knights
Feudal_Knights
Mercenary_Frankish_Knights
Armenian_Cavalry
Mercenary_German_Knights
Hussars
Serbian_Hussars
Gothic_Knights
Mamluks
Druzhina
Sipahi_Lancers
Latinkon
Gendarmes
Italian_Cavalry_Militia
Mercenary_Knights
Italian_MAA
Condottieri
Famiglia_Ducale
Polish_Retainers
Mailed_Knights
Granadine_Lancers
Merchant_Cavalry_Militia
Broken_Lances
Kwarizmian_Cavalry
Alan_Light_Cavalry
Byzantine_Lancers
Mounted_Sergeants
Arab_Cavalry
Elephants
Demi_Lancers
EE_Cavalry_Militia
Scouts
Albanian_Cavalry
Stradiots
Tuareg_Camel_Spearmen
Greek_Militia_Cavalry
Bedouin_Cavalry
Border_Horse
Hobilars

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Missile resistance

One thing that's always interested me, the HA nut, is how well a unit survives missile attack.

Here's melee cavalry units, excluding bodyguards, ranked by Armor + Shield, best to worst. Note the really lousy showing for Kwarizmian Cavalry, which has lots of armor but no shield:


Mercenary_German_Knights
Quapukulu
Polish_Knights
Chivalric_Knights
Portuguese_Knights
Italian_MAA
Condottieri
Tsars_Guard
Armored_Clergy
Polish_Guard
Noble_Knights
Imperial_Knights
English_Knights
Mercenary_Knights
Greek_Bodyguard
Christian_Guard
NE_Bodyguard
Knights_of_Santiago
Knights_Templar
Lancers
Feudal_Knights
Latinkon
Merchant_Cavalry_Militia
Conquistadores
Norman_Knights
Crusader_Knights
Teutonic_Knights
Knights_Hospitaller
E_Chivalric_Knights
Serbian_Knights
Royal_Banderium
Kataphractoi
Mercenary_Frankish_Knights
Armenian_Cavalry
Gendarmes
Italian_Cavalry_Militia
Royal_Mamluks
Gothic_Knights
Polish_Retainers
Huscarls
Hussars
Serbian_Hussars
Sipahi_Lancers
Granadine_Lancers
Byzantine_Lancers
Mamluks
Druzhina
Famiglia_Ducale
Mailed_Knights
Broken_Lances
Mounted_Sergeants
EE_Cavalry_Militia
Scouts
Kwarizmian_Cavalry
Arab_Cavalry
Alan_Light_Cavalry
Demi_Lancers
Greek_Militia_Cavalry
Elephants
Border_Horse
Hobilars
Albanian_Cavalry
Stradiots
Tuareg_Camel_Spearmen
Bedouin_Cavalry

[Doug-Thompson]

Melee cavalry with an anti-armor bonus:

Albanian Cavalry
Armored Clergy
Druzhina
English Knights
Gothic Knights
Huscarls
Imperial Knights
Kataphractoi
Mamluks
ME Late Bodyguard
Mercenary German Knights
Quapukulu
Royal Mamluks
Stradiots
Teutonic Knights

CORRECTION: This post originally included Mercenary Knights. Mercenary German Knights have the bonus, but Mercenary Knights don't.

[Doug-Thompson]

Most devastating charge:

Lots of knight units have a devastating charge. Only two, however, have a top-flight charge and the most powerful mace with anti-armor bonus that's available for their secondary, melee attack. These are Gothic Knights and Teutonic Knights, and only the Teutonic knights have a defense value high enough to really get the value out of staying in the fight.

The maces for these two units also have a high enough base attack value to make them very worthwhile for killing non-armored units.

ME Late Bodyguard, Quapukulu, and Royal Mamluks have a slightly less powerful charge and an equally powerful mace for melee.

English Knights, Huscarls and Imperial Knights are the next ones down on the list in this particular category.

The result should be a powerful charge followed by serious rapid killing of what's left. If the charge doesn't break the opponent, the mace should.

Charge and charge again

"Pumping" by charging, withdrawing and charging again is a common tactic. For some units, it might be the best way to survive combat.

English Demi-Lancers are apparently the ultimate example of this. They have an excellent charge bonus and what is, by knight standards, poor defense because of their lack of a shield. Broken Lances are a little better.

Frustratingly, Gothic Knights are also less-than-great in the defense category. They need to stay in melee to get the benefit from having a mace, but don't have the defense for it.

And I still don't have figures for Mongols and Timurids.

[Shahed]

Great stuff !