Mighty Mods

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

Hi,

What id like to see is a RTW MOD incorporates the following characteristics:


Soldier textures as good as those in RTW Mod Roma Surrectum.

Individual AOE legion Textures accurately portraying the various legions.

Post Marius Reform legions not just those (hastati) before the reforms.

Someone willing to take on the might of RTWs vanilla AI that can deal with the annoying behavious it conjures up such as AI Reinforcement generals charging suicidally into combat and other such vanilla frustrations.

A mod that doesnt take away the historical accuracy, in other words keeps the Senate and the other roman families such as the scipii and brutii just as they were for real while still making the game better through a Mod.



No disprespect to any of the mods created by the crews here you have all done great jobs but i havent found 1 yet that keeps to history which is a shame, all the ones ive tried are fantastic to play but i still find myself getting jaded after a certain amount of time; i cant help but take a hardline for historical accuracy as i am a Dr of Classical and Medieval History.

If there happens to be a mod out there that is stable and covers all the suggestions i made here feel free to let me know, RTW Mods ive tried so far are:

Rome Total Realism
(never saw any marius reforms so uninstalled it.)

Roma Surrectum
(AI issues and wanted to see a Senate and families, though still think its best mod ive experienced.)

I wish i could mod it has advantages being a specialist in the history of this period and if i could id prolly endeavour to take on the might of it and make something awesome but ive never had much experience of programming oh and no disprecpect to any of the crews who have worked hard to make their mods it just seems the prevailing approach is to remove one thing to make another aspect awesome...

regards,

DrGary
Lecturer in Classical and Medieval History
UEA
UK

[Makanyane]

Interesting post and viewpoints .

Unfortunately it should actually be in the Mod Discussion forum and not in Questions.

Historical accuracy isn't my thing so I probably can't help much on your detailed points but I suspect Europa Barbarorum would be mentioned by many people as something you should try if you haven't already.

[Myrddraal]

Moved

Editing the AI is impossible directly. It can only be done by workaround methods, which aren't always very effective.

The problem with having different textures for each legion would that each legion would have to be a different unit type, which would take up a lot of (limited) unit slots.

[Geoffrey S]

Personally I would indeed recommend Europa Barbarorum, as it contains a number of things you listed such as reforms (though they take a long while!) and is in my opinion the most accurate mod to date; in the future, RTR 7 looks very promising.

As has been said, a large amount of what you'd want to see in a mod is practically impossible. Either it can't be modified in any really significant way, like the AI, or else hardcoded limits crop up and make for an extremely one-sides game, such as a limit on the amount of units limiting your accurate legion proposal.

Out of curiosity, why do you view the RTW representation of senate and Roman families as accurate?

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

Great replies appreciate all that, ill give Europa barborum a good go then :)

do i need to explain about the roman families i am a specialist afterall :P they are not phantasms, the roman families leading the building of rome did indeed include at the top of the pyramid families such as the Julii, Scipii and brutii, and although there were other well named families these 3 really were the most powerful in the pre- caesars period...

but heres an easier way in this very name it answers the question for you:

the man who is most well known for defeating hannibal of carthage at zama was Publius cornelius scipio africanus, read the name it says it all really ;)

other famous scipii include Lucius Cornelius Scipio Barbatus 298 BC, or Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius Cornelianus Scipio Nasica 52 BC, you notice the family name imbedded inside the name of the person this was the roman way, predominantly to do with writing latin on stone.

Again we see in the most famous roman gaius julius caesar the family name imbedded inside his usage name and of course we cant forget gaius julius caesar germanicus who we more fondly despise as caligula.

so in answer to your question geoffrey the makers of RTW are keeping to your history for these 3 families did indeed control most of rome amongst themselves during this early period...

[Roman_Man#3]

Taken from a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_total_war#Historical_inaccuracy

Don't know much about this kind of stuff, at least the politics, and not sure I want to contest my ability with you but read some of the points there. I believe them, and I also think the way the romans are depicted in RTW is wrong. At least politically.

[Makanyane]

Wikipedia doesn't seem to support linking to a bookmark section with the full URL (eg your link doesn't go anywhere RM)

use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome:_Total_War

and scroll down to the historical inaccuracy section.

[Geoffrey S]

I agree that there were major families of influence in Rome, of which some were clearly more important than others, but the representation of them as three power blocs connected to certain territories, with exclusive access to senate positions is utterly inaccurate. Families in Rome were far larger in number, more fluid in nature, and certainly not connected to specific areas.

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

no one said they were geoffrey and i agree with you there were many families and fluid but im afraid to say that families did indeed dominate in certain regions and they were really like the mafia in many ways, you did not interfere with other families AOE.

For example the Juno-matellan family were responsible for the mediolanum and the area roundabouts and made their money mainly from moving cattle along the same trails every year, nearest to them were the Julii lands and there were no scipii or brutii lands north of the Rubicon but i didnt and dont plan to go into the detailed intricacies of roman families here, i was only answering your question in as basic a way as possible lol...

hope that answers your question mate..

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

its a very grey area to be sure :)


Historical inaccuracy

The three playable Roman factions are named after three of the most famous Romans of the Republican era, Julius Caesar, Marcus Junius Brutus, and Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. There were no "Scipii" or "Brutii" families. Both were cognomina- a third name that labeled one as a member of a specific family within a larger clan. The family of Marcus Junius Brutus would have been the "Junii", while Scipio Africanus would have belonged to the "Cornelii." (NOTE: Sometimes a family had also been named after the cognomen of a famous family member. For example, the form "Scipiadae" would be plausible (cf. Vergilius Aeneis VI. 843). Using the form Brutii and Scipii also proves the developer's lack of Latin language knowledge, see below.) This stratification into specific families is difficult, however, since during the Republic there were so few noble Roman families, and they were constantly intermarrying. See Roman Naming Convention for more information.

The three-faction Roman system in the game is entirely ahistorical. In fact, the Roman Republic was ruled exclusively by the Senate (which had substantially more power than is reflected in the game) and the various assemblies. Individual families might rule small provinces, but expansions to the empire would have been assigned to new governors, not left to the generals who conquered them. Generals, too, were selected by the Senate and assemblies, and the roles of governorship and generalship were not as conflated as they are in the game. There were cases where influential politicians such as Julius Caesar could quite possibly serve as both generals and governors, but they would only occur during the later Republic.

The primary reason for the three-faction system is to simulate the civil war that ultimately resulted in the end of the Roman Republic. Furthermore, while the Julii may hypothetically be correctly said to be Imperialists because Julius Caesar became the first dictator perpetuus, the precursor to the modern understanding of Roman Emperor (which his successor, Augustus Caesar, would assume), Brutus was thoroughly Republican and is in fact famous for having killed Julius Caesar after he was granted absolute power through the office of dictator perpetuus by the Senate; theoretically speaking, the family of Brutus would not have imperial ambitions. This inaccuracy is glaringly apparent in the Brutii introductory cut scene in which the narrator scoffs at the right of the masses to rule themselves.

In addition, although perhaps more trivially, the names are declined incorrectly. While the plural of Julius is indeed Julii, the plural of Brutus is Bruti, not Brutii. Likewise, the plural of Scipio is Scipiones, instead of Scipii. Latin words are, in general, wholly or partially Anglicized in pronunciation; velites (Classical Latin /weːliteːs/) is pronounced /vɛlɪtes/ instead of the expected /vɛlɪtiz/ (compare the ending sounds of the English word indices). Similarly, the C in principes is pronounced as a hard [k] as in Classical Latin instead of the [s] expected for English. See Latin declension and Latin pronunciation.

Many of the units are ahistorical as well. For example, the Urban Cohorts are depicted as the highest elite of the Roman Army, but in fact were a combined fire brigade and night watch. The arcani were a group of agents provocateurs and spies, rather than the heavily armoured pseudo-ninjas they are portrayed as in the game.

The Romans are not the only factions with ahistorical units. Druids, like those used in-game by the Barbarians, were in fact excused from military service in Celtic culture, being vital to the operation of organized village life. A totally invented unit is the British Head Hurlers, who hurl decapitated heads coated in quicklime. Severed heads were a valuable trophy in Celtic culture, and would never have been used as ammunition. The phalanx formation which the Germans employ in the game is also ahistorical, since Roman authors are emphatic that the only military formation employed by the Germani was the wedge, and the idea of pikes as Germanic weapons is contradicted by archeology as well as Tacitus (Germania Ch.6). Some units, such as wardogs and flaming pigs, were used, but never to anything like the extent depicted.

[Geoffrey S]

no one said they were geoffrey and i agree with you there were many families and fluid but im afraid to say that families did indeed dominate in certain regions and they were really like the mafia in many ways, you did not interfere with other families AOE.

For example the Juno-matellan family were responsible for the mediolanum and the area roundabouts and made their money mainly from moving cattle along the same trails every year, nearest to them were the Julii lands and there were no scipii or brutii lands north of the Rubicon but i didnt and dont plan to go into the detailed intricacies of roman families here, i was only answering your question in as basic a way as possible lol...

hope that answers your question mate..

Good to see we agree that reality was far more complicated than RTW depicts.

What I was wondering was how you drew the conclusion that the depiction of Rome in RTW, as three distinct geographical factions, was better than the approach of most mods, which are in favour of one faction with more advanced mods representing families through traits and the like. If I understand you correctly, you contend that various Roman families did play a large role in specific areas and prefer to see that represented on an exagerated scale rather than not at all?

[Riothamus]

Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies,

It appears that you may have to teach yourself how to mod or find modders who share your thoughts and historical expertise. The game does have hard coded limitations thus compromises have to made but its truly amazing how close in reality the game can become.

I recommend that you try incorporating your knowledge into a mod. This is the surest way of seeing your knowledge and then ideas displayed within the game.... unfortunately modding takes up quite a bit of your time

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

Primus:

I know i must admit i feel as a mark of respect for you fellas and the fine lads that make mods, i have thought i should make a mod, afterall i did a 4 year degree in the Ancient and Classical world followed by a masters with specialisations in aspects of Rome and the Middle ages followed by a PHD in the same and it seems if such a specialist could make a mod it would indeed be something to see.

Secondus:

equally though nothing i have ever said has meant to dishonour what has come before, i hold the mod creators here in respect as they have laboured long to make their dreams come to life, and no man can take that away from them, as they have worked hard with much effort.

Tertius:

i wish i had the faintest idea how to do it, but ive never had much experience for modding, i did try modding once back when i used to play Elder scrolls Morrowind before Oblivion but found i didnt seem to have the patience or mindset to grasp it properly so gave up without creating anything that worked...

still i do feel strongly about historical accuracy and i think other players would thoroughly appreciate something of such great work, im happy to play the current mods as they are but if some skilled modder is prepared to make me their protege and teach me till i can stand on my own two feet i may endeavour to undertake it...

*Note for geoffrey*

yer mate wouldnt the history of rome have been a lot more simple if Caesar had got off his ass, stopped sucking olives, and took notice of the rep from activision that was banging on the forum door lol...

regards...

ps-he wouldnt have got past mark anthony anyway that guy was strangeeeee lol :P

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

Yes G i would like to see the 3 roman families remain in mods, i realise their are limits to any work so am happy to ignore the other families and stick with J, S and B, i wouldnt want to forget some of histories most talented men such as scipio africanus a brilliant siege expert amongst other things and a poet to boot, and i would without a doubt want to see the Senate remain.

Without the Senate there wouldnt have ever been any Rome, and infact everything about Rome and all its troubles came from the fact their was a current buffer between individually warlike men and a senate of thinkers.

you cant do away with the senate otherwise what is rome? there wouldnt be any rome; which is exactly why they went through caesars like a truffling pig through wood :p

The senate was rome, rome was the senate, the structure through which everything transpired, even the greatest roman perhaps being caesar could not conquer them as we know from the hands of brutus, cassius etc...

thats just my humble view anyway :)

[spirit_of_rob]

I Didn't realise there was a department of classics at UEA. How long has that department been there?

[Hobbit Hassling Human Heavies]

there isnt just part time lecturers like me that teach all manner of things attached to other departments, or after hours courses or whatever...

[Kuni]

I think it's one thing to know intricately how Rome works and another thing to translate it into the game.

The popular modder's approach was to do away with the other roman factions and senate to represent Rome as one faction, like all other factions.

In the interest of fairness, I agree with this approach. Certainly other nations or confederations of "barbarians" or what have you, had different forms of government or leadership yet they were all represented as one faction.

But I do quite like the fact that you had several enemies as the head of a Roman family (a major department in the company) - Senate (your boss), other Roman factions (fellow departments), the rest of the world (other companies).

But again, Rome's struggles versus the rest of the world can also be accurately depicted as one company versus other companies. As the game is limited in how modders can change the game, I'd rather have the limited unit slot resource spread around all the factions instead of giving most to, what it boils down to, just one of several important cultures/factions.