Why would anyone build Pikes...

[Didz]

I've been puzzling over this question myself, as I have the option to raise Scottish Pike Militia in my current campaign but looking at their stats they don't seem as useful as Dismounted Knights.

This thread prompted me to do a bit of testing, mainly for my own benefit.

The first test pitted Scottish Pike Militia against Dismounted English Knights just to see what the results would be. Battlefield was Grassy Plain and no bonusses were added to either side.

Scottish Pike Militia V Dismounted English Knights
The knights won but only after a prolonged struggle. They found it hard to penetrate beyond the pikes to reach the militiamen, in several cases falling back to regroup and then charging the spear wall again to force a penetration. Once beyond the pike points the knights had the advantage forcing the militia to drop their pike and draw their sword in an uneven fight.

Losses: 181 Pikemen 73 knights

Next I decided to pit the pikemen against the best mounted knights they were likely to face in my campaign e.g. Feudal Knights

Scottish Pike Militia v Feudal Knights
I actually had to run this test twice.

In both tests the pikemen hunkered down ready to receive cavalry and the Knights trotted up and then refused to charge home. They just sat their looking at the wall of spear points and refused to budge a single step closer.

The question then arose how to take the battle to the knights. According to Mike Loades the Scottish Pikemen were trained to move and fight but the Pikemen in MTW2 clearly aren't. My first experiment was simply to tell the pikemen to attack the Knights. This proved to be a total disaster as as soon as the order to attack was given the pikemen dropped their pikes and charged with their swords to be cut to ribbons by the knights.

Losses: 210 Pikemen 41 Knights

The second test started in the same way as the first but this time instead of ordering the pikemen to attack the knights I simply ordered them to move to a point beyond the knights thus creating an apparently accidental collision.

This worked better, although as soon as the first collissions occurred I did press the BACKTAB button to order an emergency halt. A lot of the Pikemen did still drop their pikes, but some of them quickly picked them up again and the knights seemed more willing to attack now that they had been bloodied. The result was a series of charges by the knights into the pikemens rather ragged spearwall which was enough to unhorse a lot of knights and send the rest running for home.

Losses: 76 Pikmen 96 Feudal Knights

So, even allowing for the 'sword swap bug' Scottish Militia Pikemen can own mounted knights if handled carefully. In practice the reluctance of mounted knights to charge them creates an interesting opportunity for crossbowmen and archers to practice their archery.

So, a mixed force of Scottish Militia Pikemen and Mercenary Crossbowmen ought to prove very effective.

I just tested this theory in a custom battle: 6xFeudal Knights v 3xScottish Militia Pikemen and 3xScottish Noble Archers. The result was as predicted, the knights refused to charge the pikemen and just stood there getting picked off by the archers. About halfway through the archers ammunition I even moved them forward to stand in front of the pikemen so that they were firing directly into the faces of the knights but they still refused to charge.

Losses: 0 Pikemen, 0 Archers, 111 Feudal Knights

Likewise in seige assaults these Pikemen ought to prove useful in blocking streets so that your missile troops can fire into the struggling mass beyond.

[HoreTore]

I blame kobal for the lousy performance of my halberds and pikes.

[Callahan9119]

i never build pikes or halbs unless i'm just totally bored of using shields

i'll just keep a few crappy ol spearmen around to pin cav if i have to, pikes are so unwieldy and all my generic spearmen dont drop the spear if some enemy get in formation like pikes seem to do

who knows, maybe i just stink at using them...maybe they are good at holding gatehouse doors, but i'v never tried this. i assume the mass of attackers would push the formation thin and cause them all to drop the pikes though

[Slaists]

So, how about confiscating swords and testing both halberds and pikes then?

In my current campaign, both: pikes and halberds perform very well without swords. Halberds have a harder time withstanding a direct cavalry charge though.

[John_Longarrow]

Didz,

As the scots, I house rule "No pikes" because they work very well when combined with Noble Archers. For a potent combo, Archers just in front of pikes with heavy infantry on either end and some boarder horses in reserve is a NASTY combo. At 150 florins a pop they are CHEAP. They also tend to do a number on English/French cav.

mbrasher1

Depending on faction Pikes can be your best infantry unit. As the Scots they tend to be... well... too good in many cases. I try not to use them too heavily because they can be a killer on the battle field. They form a mobile wall that archers can use for cover. Toss in some light cav to disrupt enemy archers and you have a very effective combo.

[mbrasher1]

People can say over and over that halberd are inferior to pikes, but I am still not convinced.

In 5 tests of pike/halberds vs a common cavalry unit (chivalric knights), Sicilian halberd militia handily outperformed pike militia. (the halbs lost about 5 fewer men per engagement on avg, plus lost the battle less frequently)

In 5 tests of pike/halberds vs a common infantry unit with swords (DFK), halberds handily outperformed the pike militia. (the halbs lost 3/5, the pikes 5/5 and the halbs killed, on average, more DFKs)

In 5 tests of pikes vs halbs, the halbs win each time, with an avg of 43 survivors.

These are my test results, using 1.2. I still wonder why anybody would not use pikes, when superior halbs are available earlier.

The only reasons I can imagine are as follows:

-- if pikes, while being inferior fighters, may hold the line longer vs infantry that outclasses them
-- that pikes benefit disproportionately from the swordsmith upgrade (I tested this and the halbs also gain from the upgrade. It did not affect my results)

I think that since halbs also get the very long spears, any benefit that accrues to the pikes from upgrades, multiple ranks, etc also accrues to halbs, who also get AP. The long spears benefit is greater for pikes, but it is less than the AP benefit, at least in my tests.

Have you guys actually tested halbs vs pikes in 1.2? If anyone has, let me know your results. For me, the halbs are holding up to be superior to the pikes.

[Didz]

Depending on faction Pikes can be your best infantry unit. As the Scots they tend to be... well... too good in many cases. I try not to use them too heavily because they can be a killer on the battle field. They form a mobile wall that archers can use for cover. Toss in some light cav to disrupt enemy archers and you have a very effective combo.

Yes, I've just been doing some tests based on various combinations of pike and missile troops.

The most effective deployment is definitely with the missile units deployed just in front of the pikes, preferrably within the pike wall itself so that the tips of the pikes provide some protection to them.

Swiss Pikemen and musketmen are a nice combo combining fear of pikes with fear of gunpowder. I shall definately consider adding a few pike units to my Scottish army now, they should work well with my mercenary crossbows.

[Doug-Thompson]

Pikemen are very effective against cavalry attacks but terribly vulnerable to missiles. Therefore, Didz' and others' preferred method of putting missile units just in front of the pikes is a very good idea. Your own missile units keep enemy missile units, particulary horse archers, at bay. The enemy has to take casualties too if they're going to get any hits in on the pikes.

I'm frustated at the micromanaging you have to do to get a good pike charge. Modding the swords off is a good idea. It may make pikes overpowered, but their vulnerability to missiles is still a crucial weakness. Their archers can't keep up with them and fire at the same time when the pikes are moving, cancelling out that offensive strength.

===========

This is as good a place as any to describe the spear unit-HA combo I stumbled across in my Hungarian campaign. An early Crusade to Venice against the excommunicated Milanese left me with lot of Crusader Sergeants and a seriously depleted Hungarian HA force. I was attacked by virtually everybody and had to find a way to use them together, particularly against Milanese armies of spears, knights and seemingly endless crossbowmen.

I deployed by Crusaders in two-man thick lines, in rows, just like mad cat mech showed me on another thread about Pikes. This led to a "square" that was more like a grate, usually two formations wide by three "rows" deep.

Now, normally a formation that's only two units wide gets it's corners wrapped around when it meets a longer line. It then gets flanked and routed. However, this time that tendency was part of a trap.

The HA were wide out on the wings. They ran forward and started their usual thing of shooting up the enemy. The Crusaders advanced, shot at by the enemy crossbowmen. However, it is very difficult for archers to hit a thin two-man line marching directly at the archers. The archers still get a lot of undershoots, while the overshoots hit the ground between the units.

The infantrylines made contact and the enemy began the usual wraparound. However, notice how many of them would be stabbing at air — the spaces between the units.

Also, the enemy infantry were turning their backs toward the HA on the wings. The HA closed in for the kill. Foot archers can't really do this sort of thing because they can't fire on the move. The result was no only fearful killing, but the morale penalty of having a unit at your back. Notice also that for the enemy knights to get at the infantry, they would have had to ride around their own infantry first. They could charge the HA, I suppose, but they'd just skirmish away.

One or both of the exposed enemy wings would rout, while the enemy on the front was taking the full force of the infantry attack. Collapse would come, swift and total. Then it was all just a router chase.

[supadodo]

So, how about confiscating swords and testing both halberds and pikes then?

In my current campaign, both: pikes and halberds perform very well without swords. Halberds have a harder time withstanding a direct cavalry charge though.

Well, halberdiers have no swords to begin with but pikes get a tremendous boost. If you do intent to mod them, its better to balance them by upping their cost or lowering their attack power.

In my campaigns, I use pikes alot but mostly during gunpowder age for historical accuracy. I use them in conjunction with gunpowder infantry and cannons. Its fun since you don't have to mindlessly charge DFKs which is quite tiresome. Be warned, this army composition is near crap in sieges but extremely effective in flat terrain battles or advantageous slope terrain.

[Furious Mental]

I just increase the power of their secondary attack, so that bashing someone in the face with a polearm actually does something.

[Slicendice]

This has been a very interesting thread. I've not been one to really delve into the mechanics of the game in order to discern what units are better than others. Further, I've never worried myself with balance or considered the game a failure if some factions were stronger than others. (not a Online player can you tell?)

In fact, I'm more likely to conquer the map using English Spear Militia (which I can retrain quickly and garrison in a captured city for free), Longbowmen, and Mailed Knights than any other units. My whole style has been less finesse on the battlefield and more finesse on the campaign map. Eliminate the enemies strongpoints while they are weakest and then close in for the rest of the cities. If a field battle occurs I do well to end it quickly as these troops don't stand up well against more professional armies. Of course it's rare to find quality armies in M2:TW. ;)

That said, I will have to re-visit my strategies now. I've never had much luck with Halbs or pikemen, but after reading this I will have to look at them again.