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Thread: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Of late, the Palestinians in Gaza are beginning to resemble nothing less than an insane asylum with full access to the drug cabinet. Instead of making serious efforts (under incredibly difficult circumstances) to demonstrate that they can make a dignified attempt at self-governance in the strip and put more moral pressure on the Israelis to lift the rest of the occupation, they let the loonies run riot.

    The now long running kidnap of Alan Johnston (the BBC reporter and practically the only westerner who was reporting their plight actually in Gaza rather than watching Arab news in a warm hotel in Tel Aviv) was one such idiocy.

    This latest is another, where female TV presenters have been threatened with beheading for shamelessly exposing their faces.

    This is a classic quote that illustrates the mind-boggling disconnect in rational thought:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Q Nut-Job
    If necessary, we will behead and slaughter to preserve the spirit and morals of our people.


    I know this is a fringe group, but there's an awful lot of these nutters cropping up. Gaza has been set up to fail, and its people are suffering from that set-up, but surely they can see that to root out the demagogues and crazies is their only way out of such desperation?

    I have long since supported a Palestinian state, and deplored the occupation, but I despair at the thought of their nationhood these days. The people must rise and rid themselves of the madmen that entrap them into suffering, surely? There are clearly brave people there - witness the TV presenters - but why are they docile in the face of extremism?


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Wear a veil or we will behead you,' radicals tell TV women

    By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
    Published: 04 June 2007


    All 15 women presenters reported for work at the official Palestine Television station in Gaza yesterday, in defiance of death threats by a radical Islamic group that is believed to have links with al-Qa'ida. The Righteous Swords of Islam warned that it would strike the women with "an iron fist and swords" for refusing to wear a veil on camera.

    "It is disgraceful that the women working for the official Palestinian media are competing with each other to display their charms," it said in a leaflet distributed in Gaza at the weekend. "We will destroy their homes. We will blow up their work places. We have a lot of information about their addresses and we are following their movements."

    The fringe group threatened to "slaughter" the women for corrupting Palestinian morals. "The management and workers at Palestine TV should know," it warned, "that we are much closer to them than they think. If necessary, we will behead and slaughter to preserve the spirit and morals of our people."

    About half the women TV journalists wear the traditional hijab head covering, but all show their faces and wear makeup. They mounted a vigil yesterday outside the Gaza City office of the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, demanding protection and respect.

    Lana Shaheen, who heads the station's English-language programmes, told The Independent: "Of course we are afraid. Previously this group threatened Internet cafes and video shops, then burned them. We will protect ourselves."

    She insisted the women would continue working. "We will not change... our lives. We've worked through Israeli bombardments and attacks, just like the men. It's a national obligation."

    Mohammed al-Dahoudi, the director-general of Palestine TV, said they were taking the threats seriously. "In the current security chaos, everything can happen in Gaza. There is incitement from some groups against television. We will continue to work as usual, but we will take precautions. We have to be careful."

    He recalled previous attacks by Muslim radicals on local offices of the Saudi-owned Al Arabiya TV; another station, Voice of the Workers; and Palestine TV's own branch in Khan Yunis. In recent weeks, militants campaigning against Western influence have also vandalised an American school and a Christian bookshop. Bassam Eid, director of the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, accused the radicals of behaving like the Taliban in Afghanistan. "Gaza has become Hamasistan. They are trying to drag Palestinian society back to the dark ages."

    As the prospect of peace recedes and poverty spreads, Palestinians have become more traditional. Bars and cinemas have closed. Many educated, middle-class women now cover their heads, but hardly anyone, even in the villages, wears the niqab veil.

    * Despite a sharp decline in the number of rocket attacks from Gaza, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, vowed yesterday to continue military operations in Gaza and the West Bank. Four Israeli soldiers were wounded yesterday when Palestinian fighters fired mortars at the Erez passenger crossing between Gaza and Israel. Earlier, troops shot dead a Fatah gunman in the West bank town of Jenin.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    I agree with the post, but it think its very easy to underestimate the difficulty for the ordinary Palestinian people in stopping the "loonies" run riot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    the people must rise and rid themselves of the madmen that entrap them into suffering, surely? There are clearly brave people there - witness the TV presenters - but why are they docile in the face of extremism?
    much easier said than done, there are a huge number of different extremist groups, who don't seem to mind killing other Palestinians to get their way, people have families to protect, homes to keep, and have been brought up to war and violence as a method of resolving problems. It doesn't help that the "democratically" elected government is incapable, violent and unstable, and not helped by the fact that it isn't recognized by foreign powers, (a huge mistake)

    I think its very unfair to call ordinary Palestinians docile, what are the supposed to do? They have no real leadership, are constantly under threat from extremist groups, and have no means of fighting back against the extremists, apart from similarly using violence.


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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    I suspect that once the olmert government finally collapses, we will get Likud, and the palestinians will have all the israeli's they could want and more.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    agreed with BG.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Well, I've already said my preferred solution to the Palestinian problem is for Israel to annex the whole of Palestine, and incorporate the Palestinians as neo-Israelis. No-nonsense, no hypocritical pretence about moral right, and the Palestinians would be better off as Israelis than they would otherwise be. And if Israel does it right, in a generation's time the Palestinians would be fully-integrated Israelis, and there'll be no more threat to Israel's security on that front.

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    Hand Bacon Member ShadeHonestus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Pann you might be on to something here. Unfortunately the integration would have to completely envelop the hearts and minds of the Palestinians. Of course they would be better off, but how often is that path taken, by the group to be integrated, on its own merits. The largest problem is going to be that any failure at integration, no matter how small will be exploited by those wishing dissent inside Palestine from outside in the greater region. That's a huge hurdle itself which doesn't even take into account the far fringe in Israel which would dissent in a hostile fashion to such a program. Until the rest of the middle east becomes a wasteland void of economic oil reserves this road will end up that which is less travelled and even then the damage has been done to a point where the door may never be opened.
    "There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."

    "The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Well, I've already said my preferred solution to the Palestinian problem is for Israel to annex the whole of Palestine, and incorporate the Palestinians as neo-Israelis. No-nonsense, no hypocritical pretence about moral right, and the Palestinians would be better off as Israelis than they would otherwise be. And if Israel does it right, in a generation's time the Palestinians would be fully-integrated Israelis, and there'll be no more threat to Israel's security on that front.
    There is a simplicity to this that is very appealing. It is as elegant and intelligent a proposal as I have read...but I don't live there, so convinving me isn't crucial.

    Concerns:

    This would ratchet up the "nutters" wing hysteria -- see BG above -- quite a bit. Can Israel truly absorb Gaza without losing control?

    Israel too has it's "old guard" (and a few nutters of its own). How can Israel integrate that many Arabs without Israel ceasing to be a "Jewish State?"
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Well, I've already said my preferred solution to the Palestinian problem is for Israel to annex the whole of Palestine, and incorporate the Palestinians as neo-Israelis. No-nonsense, no hypocritical pretence about moral right, and the Palestinians would be better off as Israelis than they would otherwise be. And if Israel does it right, in a generation's time the Palestinians would be fully-integrated Israelis, and there'll be no more threat to Israel's security on that front.
    I think the idea is okay on the surface, its simplicity makes it attractive but I find it hard to believe that a generations time would make them fully intergrated.

    Outside influences would hardly allow an annexation to be intergrated, i mean I think even the moderate muslim governments we have now would turn on this one.

    I know israel is in a no win situation, but annexing the palestinians outright garnishes you more external enemies with influence inside your borders. That wouldnt go away in a generation, perhaps the degree of resistance might ebb, but I just dont see the middle east climate changing that much where this becomes tolerable.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I think the idea is okay on the surface, its simplicity makes it attractive but I find it hard to believe that a generations time would make them fully intergrated.

    Outside influences would hardly allow an annexation to be intergrated, i mean I think even the moderate muslim governments we have now would turn on this one.

    I know israel is in a no win situation, but annexing the palestinians outright garnishes you more external enemies with influence inside your borders. That wouldnt go away in a generation, perhaps the degree of resistance might ebb, but I just dont see the middle east climate changing that much where this becomes tolerable.
    There is that universal enabler, should the Israelis ever choose that option. Money solves everything, if one spends enough of it intelligently. After annexation, employ Palestinians to demolish the wall - continue employing them to rebuild and demolish it periodically if necessary, the object being to channel money into Palestinian households by whatever means seem credible. Start off with some great conciliatory measure to gain a PR buffer, then move on to the economic programme ASAP. Whatever happens, do not move away from that programme, but seek to normalise the economic situation of the Palestinians with the rest of Israel. Once the economies of Israel and Palestine aren't quite so starkly different, most of the hatred will disappear with the divide. Accelerate the process with braindead populist TV.

  10. #10
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    There is that universal enabler, should the Israelis ever choose that option. Money solves everything, if one spends enough of it intelligently. After annexation, employ Palestinians to demolish the wall - continue employing them to rebuild and demolish it periodically if necessary, the object being to channel money into Palestinian households by whatever means seem credible. Start off with some great conciliatory measure to gain a PR buffer, then move on to the economic programme ASAP. Whatever happens, do not move away from that programme, but seek to normalise the economic situation of the Palestinians with the rest of Israel. Once the economies of Israel and Palestine aren't quite so starkly different, most of the hatred will disappear with the divide. Accelerate the process with braindead populist TV.
    Well okay I can see it more clearly now, I think on a macro scale probably most might accept it over time, as long as thier lot in life is improved economically and otherwise.

    I just find it unlikely that those external forces outside the palestinians would go along so easily. This would be a battle cry for a lot of extremists for a long time, and a great deal of them would infact now be inside israel with this annexation.

    So now how do you deal with that element? You cant pick and choose whom to give services too and whom not to, and you've just brough your former enemy closer to your bossom. Traditionally in war (I believe its a state of war anyway, but thats another thread) you invite your enemy in, once you have defeated them.

    The Palestinian cause is much larger then the palestinian people and thats the larger problem I see. But hey at this point whats the alternative? Giving up jeruselum? Essentially thats what it would take to placate the palestinians at this point.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

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    Corrupted Member ezrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    ...
    Israel too has it's "old guard" (and a few nutters of its own). How can Israel integrate that many Arabs without Israel ceasing to be a "Jewish State?"

    Spain absorbed quite a few arabs and maintained a very strong Catholic state. But that was rather violent
    * Never take an eejit with you on a journey. You can always pick one up when you get there.


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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: I begin to wonder if ordinary Gazans wouldn't prefer the Israelis back

    I cant find it now but I remember reading and posting a link to a poll where Palestinians said they would like to have an Israeli form of government for their country. Kind of ironic. While looking for it I found this poll that I must admit surprised me a bit and also gives me hope . But theres also some upsetting things there still.

    Good

    Three quarters (77%) of respondents support new
    peace talks with Israel,
    Bad

    slightly more than one
    quarter believe the government should recognise
    Israel and renounce violence against Israel.
    War and peace:
    § 77% believe that negotiations with Israel
    should resume (79% of the respondents on the West
    Bank and 74% in Gaza).
    § The release of Palestinian prisoners from
    Israeli prisons is seen as the most important
    factor for a new peace process by 37% of the
    respondents. The end of Israeli aggression in
    Gaza and Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank
    are the second most important demands (both 15%).
    Then 11% ranks reconciliation between the
    government and the president as the most central
    factor.
    § While 82% of the respondents believe all
    military force against Israel should cease
    immediately, 84% still believe the military force
    is legitimate under the current circumstances.
    § 21% believe that the release of the
    soldier Shalit will end the Israeli incursions
    into Gaza. At the same time 45% believes that the
    hostage taking has been beneficial for the
    Palestinians and only 9% support an unconditional
    release.
    LINK

    This was back at the time of the crisis in Lebanon I believe.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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