In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

[Zaknafien]

In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

By John Curran, Associated Press Writer | June 3, 2007

MONTPELIER, Vt. --At Riverwalk Records, the all-vinyl record store just down the street from the state Capitol, the black "US Out of Vt.!" T-shirts are among the hottest sellers.

But to some people in Vermont, the idea is bigger than a $20 novelty. They want Vermont to secede from the United States -- peacefully, of course.

"The argument for secession is that the U.S. has become an empire that is essentially ungovernable -- it's too big, it's too corrupt and it no longer serves the needs of its citizens," said Rob Williams, editor of Vermont Commons, a quarterly newspaper dedicated to secession.

"Congress and the executive branch are being run by the multinationals. We have electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war. If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."

"People would obviously relish coming to the Republic of Vermont, the Switzerland of North America," he said. "Christ, you couldn't keep them away."

But there are plenty of skeptics.

"It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea," said Paul Gillies, a lawyer and Vermont historian.

While neither the Vermont Constitution nor the U.S. Constitution forbids secession per se, few think it's viable.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ver...ains_traction/

[Slyspy]

People of Vermont rise up! We have nothing to lose but our dignity!

[Zaknafien]

heh, I found the Republic of Vermont's website

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

[Odin]

Having been to Vermont more then a few times the people there are a unique breed. While this is cute on the surface I find it hard to take seriously on any level other then an attempt at a political statement on a national scale.

Good luck to them

[Zaknafien]

indeed. good luck, O patriots of Vermont.

[Marshal Murat]

Until that military-industrial complex gets rolling and the U.S. takes back the state.

[Zaknafien]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol

[Lemur]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol

Are you implying that there's such a thing as a "legal" occupation? Just asking ...

This story reminds me of some of the better graffiti in New York, including a wall with giant letters spray-painted on it that read, "U.S. Out of Brooklyn!"

[Zaknafien]

sure, I'd be perfectly willing to accept the Allied occupation of Germany as legal.

[doc_bean]

The North shall rise again !

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I say they go for it. States seceding worked out pretty well last time they tried it, if memory serves.

[Xiahou]

I say they go for it. States seceding worked out pretty well last time they tried it, if memory serves.

None could stand against the might of Vermont!

[Kralizec]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

[Odin]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

check out the numbers here

[GeneralHankerchief]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

Tourism.

There's always been talk of secession if a state has been really, really PO'd at the national policies. Happened before the Civil War, happened after. They'll never do it, not with the 2008 elections coming up.

[AntiochusIII]

Forget Vermont, I think it's high time the People of Washington D.C. rise up against their US oppressors.

"She's a rebel!"

[Lemur]

The North shall rise again !

Seriously, who do they think they are? Quebec?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seriously, who do they think they are? Quebec?

Well...they are called Vermont for a reason, 'Green Mountain'. With Montpelier for a capital. And a population that's of 23% French / French Canadien heritage. So:

Vive le Vermont! Vive le Vermont libre! Et vive l’Amérique française!

[Marshal Murat]

I think Louisiana would join in this Francophone liberation movement (VQL-Vermont, Quebec, Lousiana!)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

As the official Org delegate from the Republic of Vermont I have to say I am astonished and offended by the unfair and degrading treatment you people have showed our great nation. We may at the moment be a member state of the United States of America, but we have a history of independence dating back to the 18th century when Vermont was an independent state during the time of the Articles of Confederation, with no alliegance to the United States of America.

As to the accusations that Vermont is in some way attempting to follow Quebec or is serving the interests of our French-Canadian minority in it's quest for independence I find that equally offensive. In no way is Vermont a part of the Francophone conspiracy of world domination. Furthermore Vermont has no need to follow the example of such a second rate secessionist state such as Quebec, which has never achieved independence as Vermont did in the 18th century after several small conflicts with New York and New Hampshire. No offense intended to any citizens of Quebec of course.

On a more serious note Vermont is a really great state and I'm really proud to be from Vermont and though it would definately make it much harder for me to figure out where I'm going to college (or easier due to limited selection?) when I seriously think about it in a foriegn relations and civil liberties point of view Vermont would do a much better job governing itself than the USA. At least in my opinion, being a bit of a lefty as I am. Economically it would cause a lot of problems for Vermont if Vermont seceded if the US did not allow free trade between the two states. In that case Vermont would also have to rely on Canada for trade with the outside world. That's assuming the USA didn't send in the army and blow the hell out of my beloved state of course.

Vermont really is a very special place and I can't say I'd really be against it if I was asked to vote for secession. At this point I doubt the USA would get away with forcefully reoccupying Vermont because of where international opinion has sunken to, though the US could just mimic Russia and ignore world opinion I suppose. It'd be a loss for the USA though, there would no longer be a socialist in the senate (Bernie Sanders) or a socially progressive state like Vermont showing the rest of the USA that Civil Unions (or *GASP* gay marriages) are not one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

That being said it's not going to happen. Where I live there isn't any serious talk of secession and I doubt the majority of people, especially the republicans, would be all that interested in seceding.

EDIT: Oh yeah and stop pronouncing Montepelier like you would in French you francophiles! In Vermont it's called Mont-peal-yur not Mont-peal-ye or however you would right that.

[Banquo's Ghost]

We may at the moment be a member state of the United States of America, but we have a history of independence dating back to the 18th century when Vermont was an independent state during the time of the Articles of Confederation, with no alliegance to the United States of America.

I'm intrigued as to the Constitutional position. Since Vermont was an independent state that joined the United States, does it in fact have the full right to secede? Surely a state can enter into a treaty and then at some point, withdraw? Or has there been an Amendment that, by acquiescing to its passage, founder states relinquished the right to secede?

What would be the requirements for this to happen, if allowed? Would it be a matter for the state legislature, or the governor or would it have to go to a referendum of the people? What quorum would be considered binding?

[Ja'chyra]

I think this is really quite interesting, it gives the US butting into other countries business a whole new perspective.

Afetr all didn't they have an opinion about NI? Other than paying for weapons that is.

[HoreTore]

I fully support anyone who wants a quick way out of Bush's influence...

[Odin]

I'm intrigued as to the Constitutional position. Since Vermont was an independent state that joined the United States, does it in fact have the full right to secede? Surely a state can enter into a treaty and then at some point, withdraw? Or has there been an Amendment that, by acquiescing to its passage, founder states relinquished the right to secede?

What would be the requirements for this to happen, if allowed? Would it be a matter for the state legislature, or the governor or would it have to go to a referendum of the people? What quorum would be considered binding?

Well technically there isnt anything in the constitution that I have seen that prohibits sucession. the 10th amendment under the bill of rights tells us that the federal government is limited to power only granted under the constitutution. Therefore an issue not covered by the constitution defaults to the states, thier constitutions and legislatures.

So unless I missed it, the constitution does not prohibit succession, therefore the federal government has no legal ability under the constitution to enforce a law or act should a state seceed. I cant find a legal argument to explain the american civil war, simply the justification that the confederacy was in revolt.

Im sure there are civil war scholars here that will correct me with detail, but from what i have read i dont see any legal way in which the feds could stop Vermont, via the constitution anyway.

[InsaneApache]

Interesting stuff. About the rule of law, when did the current administration bother with little intricacies as that?

[Odin]

Interesting stuff. About the rule of law, when did the current administration bother with little intricacies as that?

Sadly, a lot of the actions by the current administration have fallen under the rule of law. That wonderful legislation called the "patriot act" gave a lot of lattitude to these clowns, of course like most drunk on power they over reached.

Vermonts timing is actually pretty good, there chances of success are greater,

[Mikeus Caesar]

Maybe if we're lucky we'll end up with a Crimson Skies scenario, albeit without the sky-pirates.

And with regards to the 'the south will rise again!' phrase - well, the charming parallel universe of Crimson Skies would certainly support that.

Long live the Confederation of Dixie!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol

Hasnt that already been done?

[Strike For The South]

Everyone wants to be like Texas

[Odin]

Everyone wants to be like Texas

Having spent some time in Texas myself, they can try as hard as they want, there is only one Texas.