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Thread: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature...4/six_day_war/

    Little-noticed details in declassified U.S. documents indicate that Israel's Six-Day War may not have been a war of necessity.

    By Sandy Tolan

    Israeli generals Uzi Narkiss (from left), Moshe Dayan and Yitzhak Rabin in the old city of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967, after the sector was captured from the Jordanians.

    June 4, 2007 | At a little after 7 on the morning of June 5, 1967, as Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's commanders were finishing their breakfasts and driving to work, French-built Israeli fighter jets roared out of their bases and flew low, below radar, into Egyptian airspace. Within three hours, 500 Israeli sorties had destroyed Nasser's entire air force. Just after midday, the air forces of Jordan and Syria also lay in smoking ruins, and Israel had essentially won the Six-Day War -- in six hours.

    Israeli and U.S. historians and commentators describe the surprise attack as necessary, and the war as inevitable, the result of Nasser's fearsome war machine that had closed the Straits of Tiran, evicted United Nations peacekeeping troops, taunted the traumatized Israeli public, and churned toward the Jewish state's border with 100,000 troops. "The morning of 5 June 1967," wrote Israel's warrior-turned-historian, Chaim Herzog, "found Israel's armed forces facing the massed Arab armies around her frontiers." Attack or be annihilated: The choice was clear.

    Or was it? Little-noticed details in declassified documents from the LBJ Presidential Library in Austin, Texas, indicate that top officials in the Johnson administration -- including Johnson's most pro-Israeli Cabinet members -- did not believe war between Israel and its neighbors was necessary or inevitable, at least until the final hour. In these documents, Israel emerges as a vastly superior military power, its opponents far weaker than the menacing threat Israel portrayed, and war itself something that Nasser, for all his saber-rattling, tried to avoid until the moment his air force went up in smoke. In particular, the diplomatic role of Nasser's vice president, who was poised to travel to Washington in an effort to resolve the crisis, has received little attention from historians. The documents sharpen a recurring theme in the history of the Israeli-Arab wars, and especially of their telling in the West: From the war of 1948 to the 2007 conflict in Gaza, Israel is often miscast as the vulnerable David in a hostile sea of Arab Goliaths.

    "You will whip the hell out of them," Lyndon Johnson told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban during a visit to the White House on May 26, 1967. The president's conclusions were based on multiple intelligence reports, including a CIA assessment that Israel "can maintain internal security, defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts, launch limited attacks simultaneously on all fronts, or hold any of three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth." As Nicholas Katzenbach, U.S. undersecretary of state at the time, recalled: "The intelligence was absolutely flat on the fact that the Israelis ... could wipe out the Arabs in no time at all."

    A key discrepancy lay between U.S. and British intelligence reports and those conveyed to the administration by the Israelis. On May 26, the same day Eban met with Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, Dean Rusk, the secretary of state, relayed a message from Israel indicating "that an Egyptian and Syrian attack is imminent." In a memo to the president, Rusk wrote: "Our intelligence does not confirm this Israeli estimate." Indeed, this contradicted all U.S. intelligence, which had characterized Nasser's troops in the Sinai as "defensive in nature" and only half (50,000) of the Israeli estimates. Walt Rostow, the national security advisor, called Israeli estimates of 100,000 Egyptian troops "highly disturbing," and the CIA labeled them "a political gambit" for the United States to stand firm with Israelis, sell them more military hardware, and "put more pressure on Nasser."

    As for the Egyptian president, there was a huge difference between his public and private signals. He had threatened Israelis with "annihilation," causing fear bordering on paralysis for a population devastated by the Holocaust. He had closed the Straits of Tiran, a source of less than 10 percent of Israel's shipping, but nevertheless a casus belli as far as Israel was concerned. He had expelled the U.N. peacekeepers from Sinai, further raising fears of war. (Israel, however, refused to accept those same peacekeepers -- a move that would have diminished the chance of war.) And, as the leader of the "Arab nation," Nasser was under great pressure from other Arabs to cut short Israel's nuclear ambitions and deliver the Palestinians back to the homes they had fled and been driven out of in the war of 1948.

    But privately Nasser was sending strong signals he would not go to war. On May 31, he met with an American emissary, former Treasury Secretary Robert Anderson, assuring him that Egypt would not "begin any fight." Two days later, Nasser told a British M.P., Christopher Mayhew, that Egypt had "no intention of attacking Israel." The same day he met again with Anderson, agreeing to dispatch his vice president, Zakariya Mohieddin, to Washington, in an apparent last-ditch attempt to avoid war. (Anderson and Johnson had also spoken of a visit to Cairo by Vice President Hubert Humphrey.)

    Rostow decided that Israel should know about the secret visit. In a June 2 note to the president, the national security advisor urged that the United States inform Israel of Mohieddin's impending trip to the White House: "My guess is that their intelligence will pick it up." The same day, Nasser sent a telegram to the American president indicating that Egypt would not attack Israel, but that "we shall resist any aggression launched against us or against any Arab state."

    The archives for the 1967 war, as with the documentary evidence from other Arab-Israeli wars, thus reveal a history far more complex, and far more interesting, than the inflated portrayal of Arabs poised to crush Israel. "One against 40," declared David Ben-Gurion in describing the odds facing Israel in the war of 1948, ignoring the fact that comparisons of total populations meant little. The records show that the key Arab and Jewish forces -- a much more crucial benchmark -- were about the same, and that after a June 1948 cease-fire, a rearmed Israel had a decided advantage, which it parlayed into victory. Fifty-nine years later, in today's conflict in Gaza, the tragic, well-publicized deaths of Israelis in Sderot from crudely built Qassam missiles -- nine in the last six years -- are dwarfed by the deaths of 650 Palestinians last year (more than half unarmed civilians, according to Amnesty International) from attacks by Israel, one of the most potent and sophisticated military powers in the world, armed with nuclear weapons.

    Yet the David vs. Goliath narrative persists, obscuring a more nuanced view of the balance of power in the region. Much of this has to do with Americans' familiarity with the story of Israel as a safe haven for Jews ravaged by the Holocaust. By contrast, Arabs, especially Palestinians, have long been seen as a vaguely menacing Other, as depicted in Leon Uris' hugely influential best-seller, "Exodus." The "Exodus" history, in which Arabs are alternately pathetic or malicious, holds no room for a more layered narrative of the struggle between Arabs and Jews, in which someone like Gamal Abdel Nasser, blustering for the Arab street, may have been privately seeking a way out of war.

    Did Nasser truly want peace? We may never know. On June 3, 1967, after Secretary of State Rusk had informed Israel of the pending visit from Egyptian Vice President Mohieddin, Rusk relayed a message from the president to Nasser. "In view of the urgency of the situation," Rusk wrote, "we hope it will be possible for him to come without delay." That same day, however, at a Pentagon meeting between Mossad director Meir Amit and McNamara, the prospects for war seemed closer than ever. Amit told McNamara bluntly that he was "going to recommend that our government strike." This time, the Americans did not object; indeed, the CIA had grown sympathetic to Israel's war aims, in which Nasser, seen as too close to the Soviets, would be defanged. When McNamara asked Amit how long a war would last, the Mossad director replied: "Seven days." And so the meeting between the White House and Mohieddin, scheduled for June 7, never took place. By that time, it was already Day 3 of the Six-Day War, and Israel was already in control of Sinai, the West Bank, Gaza and the skies over much of the Middle East.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Interesting article and its accurate that the david and goliath myth has persisted over time. What's not discussed though is that Nasser did want Israel annihilated. While it might be rhetoric, one could argue that under that threat the israeli response was rather tame.

    they took out the military capability of enemies who promoted thier destruction, its hard to find fault in that. Sure there might have been a chance at diplomacy, but as the enemy is making comments about your destruction, and there military is mobolized you can talk, or you can act and then talk.

    This event had a lot to do with the 56 suez crisis. Israel and Egypt agreed to let UN peace keepers to keep it demilitarized, egypt threw them out and Israel essentially lost the Sinai because of it. So now 10 years after they took it, gave it up to the UN egypt takes it back, with 100k troops now deployed there.

    In addition to that Jordan had in excess of 50k troops on the border near the west bank, and Syria while not a major player was shelling Israel on a regular basis, golan heights was taken as a buffer zone and it worked for the most part.

    All in all the article accurately accounts for the David and Goliath metaphor, but in 67 when one looks at the disposition of the other side, the depiction is accurate.
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    This is not new information, Jeremy Bowen had the same information in his book Six Days: How the 1967 War Shaped the Middle East which was published back in 2003. Sandy Tolan is a few years behind the times.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    I found it interesting paticularly because of our knowledge of the "other" Jewish conquests and oppression in Egypt and such in biblical times to now be false too.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Hah, read an article in a norwegian newspaper(aftenposten) about this on friday, seen through the eyes of their correspondent down there at the time... Including interviews with some old egyptian army guys, and most of all, a retired isreali army high-ranking guy. I can't remember his name or rank just now, but he has just released a book telling his version of what happened, which was the base of the article.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    I found it interesting paticularly because of our knowledge of the "other" Jewish conquests and oppression in Egypt and such in biblical times to now be false too.

    What exactly does the 1967 war have to do with things roughly 3000 years ago? The only connection I see is the jews, but we don't really want to go there, do we?


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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    well the modern Jews really have no relation to the mythical Israelites of Biblical times, at least as far as those in Israel. What I was saying has more to do with the perceptions we have of Israel in the West.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    well the modern Jews really have no relation to the mythical Israelites of Biblical times, at least as far as those in Israel.
    None of them? Of this you are sure? I bet I can find such Jews all over the world but you claim not in Israel huh? Has god still got them exiled? Or did he destroy them all? Its like the claim there were no AQ in Iraq. They were in Florida and all over the world but there were none in Iraq.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    uh, there were no AQ in Iraq before 2003.

    Obviously there's plenty of Jews in Palestine.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    uh, there were no AQ in Iraq before 2003.
    It didnt take long did it. Use common sense. NONE? Your a fishermans dream


    But Ill take you bait. Ever hear of this guy?

    Page 7 of the pdf document: This is a letter from an Iraqi intelligence officer dated August/7/2002 (7/8/2002 per Iraqi date numbering system) talking about the presence of individuals from Al Qaeda inside Iraq and that they possess multiple passports. The has attached pictures of Ahmad Fadil Nazal AlKhalayla that we know him by his nick name of Zarqawi (Abu Musaab Al Zarqawi) and some other individual.
    End of page 3 translation.

    Now in page 1 you will find the answer from I.M 53/4 (The Director) to the I.M 53/1/5 who is wrote the original letter about AL Qaeda member in Iraq. Again the letter from the Director says that there is no indication of Al Qaeda members in Iraq.

    Translation of page 1

    Secret and Immediate Letter

    To I.M 53/1/5

    From I.M 53/4

    Document number 15701 and your letter numbered 3501 in 15/8/2002, we have directed our sources and there was no indication for us about this. We will provide you with the latest in case we receive it. Finished

    Secretary 17/8 Youssef 17/8

    Signature

    M 53/4

    17/8/2002


    End of page 1 translation

    It seems to me that the lower branch of the Iraqi intelligence provided accurate information about the presence of Zarqawi and AL Qaeda members in Iraq but for some reason it was quickly dismissed by another higher branch in the intelligence service as if they want to cover this up and not follow through on it.
    LINK
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-05-2007 at 03:10.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Saddam ran a pretty tight ship. There is one guy with AQ links who visited Baghdad in 03 for medical treatment. And the thing about modern Israelites, they are mostly descended from Mongoloid and Asiatic peoples, not the mythical Biblical Israelites who mythically roamed around the Sinai for decades.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    It didnt take long did it. Use common sense. NONE? Your a fishermans dream
    It is entirely possible that there are virtually no effective AQ cells in Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein. Whereas the USA is a free country with a relatively lenient border control prior to 9/11, Saddam's Iraq has always been heavily anti-AQ and heavily autocratic.

    It is also possible that some AQ operatives just cross the deserts to set up shops in some Kurdish village or whatever; but that does not necessarily support your implication against Zak's assertion, since his assertion, if not completely factually correct, can be understood as:

    "There are no AQ operatives in Iraq with Saddam's blessing or consent."

    Having said that, I agree with Husar:
    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    What exactly does the 1967 war have to do with things roughly 3000 years ago? The only connection I see is the jews, but we don't really want to go there, do we?

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    It is entirely possible that there are virtually no effective AQ cells in Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq
    Did I say effective. My point is he is always guilty of this obvious debating mistake. Never say none or always. Your looking for a beating around this place if you do. Someone will call you out on it . Of that you can be sure.
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    What I was saying has more to do with the perceptions we have of Israel in the West.
    What does it have to do with our current perception of Israel? That we're always falling for their dirty Jew lies?

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    No, that we perceive them as the weak country in the region surrounded by enemies, who heroically stand up to their barbrous foes and vanquish them for the sake of Goodness. Bull-snip.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Speak for yourself, I don't perceive them as a very weak country.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    If their weak then their god must be strong indeed and Im converting

    Who here perceives Israel as weak. Please step up?
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by I forget
    If the Palestinians lay down their arms, there will be peace.
    If the Israeli's lay down their arms, there will be no Israel.
    To me that's pretty much what it boils down to, couldn't care less who's stronger.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Do you really think not having an Israel would be a bad thing? Why not have a country called Palestine instead, where Palestinians and all of the european and asian immigrants who now live in Israel could also live? Israel, as it currently stands, is a semi-fascist racist state made on land that was stolen from the original inhabitants. Or you would disagree, I assume?


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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    At the risk of turning into [yet another you-know-what], I'd say that,

    If Palestinians lay down their arms, there would be no Palestine.

    The original comparison is quite unfair you know.

    Indeed, if one is to extend the comparison in a scenario where...certain powerful extreme elements within Israel takes control...it would not be too far fetched to say that there would be, ah, no Palestinians. The same for Israel's case, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    Do you really think not having an Israel would be a bad thing? Why not have a country called Palestine instead, where Palestinians and all of the european and asian immigrants who now live in Israel could also live? Israel, as it currently stands, is a semi-fascist racist state made on land that was stolen from the original inhabitants. Or you would disagree, I assume?
    Israel is a Democracy, you know.

    And why can't the country's name be Israel? It could be Narnia for all I care. Or the Imperialist State of House Atreides. That and a majority of the citizens of Israel consider themselves by and large to be Jewish, so "European and Asian immigrants" is a rather...cumbersome term.
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 06-05-2007 at 03:40.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    It seems people on this board are alot more enlightened than your average Merican yokel, but in the U.S. there are a majority of uneducated boobs of the Evangelical Christian persuasion who believe that Israel is some magical land of fairy tales and Good vs Evil and somehow it is related to the "Good Book" and "God's People".


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    It seems people on this board are alot more enlightened than your average Merican yokel, but in the U.S. there are a majority of uneducated boobs of the Evangelical Christian persuasion who believe that Israel is some magical land of fairy tales and Good vs Evil and somehow it is related to the "Good Book" and "God's People".
    Then you can't blame Israelis if certain elements within the Evangelical Movement perceives them to be more than what they are. Why then should you deprive the citizens of that country the right to call their country with their preferred name?

    Unless, of course, you wish to frame this point in a larger argument I have yet to perceive. I'd find it very interesting if we would return to the discussion of the "David vs Goliath" myth and what that myth -- if it exists for certain -- has done to the situation, to the opinions of those involved and not involved, and will do.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Zaks problem is hes a camper
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    I know Zak, and I hate those imbeciles. They're an embarrassment to this place, I'm an arrogant enough American to admit that I think these guys should know better. After all, they're from here, right?! harharhar

    But seriously, as dumb as your fellow American is, remember the people in that part of the world are equally stupid and ignorant. So don't just take a left where your dumb neighbor's taking a right, because being reflexively contrarian is just as silly as believing these 'magical land of fairy tales' shpiels.

    Go visit Israel sometime. It's a blast, the people are friendly, the history is amazing, and alot of your preconceived notions of it being a 'fascist, racist state' will be shredded. The typical Israeli I met when I was there came across as alot more liberal than most folks I know from LA or NYC (it was a little while back mind you, right before the Second Intifadah).

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    well of course I have nothing agianst your average Israeli, they're all good enough people Im sure, just like your average American are good hardworking folk. The fascist racist part is more their government, much like our own.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    The fascist racist part is more their government, much like our own.
    So you dont believe in the theory nations get the government they deserve? Democracies tend to represent in at least some fashion the ideas of the populous. Unlike us most people really have no idea of whats going on nor do they care. I would have to say this is the case of America these days as Bush proves it.
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Well theres certainly a point in seeing something wrong and revolting against the idea, but when we see something going wrong and always revolt against the idea then we become Thailand or some other country wracked with internal dissent. Americans maybe ignorant to the world at large, and to political issues within the country, but Bush and the political system (both Dems and Reps) haven't exactly destroyed the country yet and so it would be foolish to change it in a major way. When push comes to shove then we'll start pushing back, or at least I will, but that time hasn't come yet. I don't foresee this grand fall of the American Democratic System Falling any time soon. We're just in a lull, not quite yet in an anarchy. I believe Government Reforms are to be needed, in both the US and Israel, but their times will come, maybe we need to know what its like to be a fascist Dictatorship before we can appreciate the Freedoms however little they may be that we currently have.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Interesting article and its accurate that the david and goliath myth has persisted over time. What's not discussed though is that Nasser did want Israel annihilated. While it might be rhetoric, one could argue that under that threat the Israeli response was rather tame.

    they took out the military capability of enemies who promoted thier destruction, its hard to find fault in that. Sure there might have been a chance at diplomacy, but as the enemy is making comments about your destruction, and there military is mobilized you can talk, or you can act and then talk.
    I see that the right to Free Speech is clearly not universal. And surely there is a clear difference between the rhetoric of a leader to the masses and Diplomacy? Many countries want America destroyed. Most are still standing and most of the have done precious little to attack America.

    Israel did what it wanted - and then stated that if they hadn't they'd have been defeated. If I got £1 every time I heard Israel trot that line out...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    I see that the right to Free Speech is clearly not universal.
    No it isnt, not sure where your going on this one but I'll play along for now, however your going to need a better lure on your fishing line to snag this fish mate.




    And surely there is a clear difference between the rhetoric of a leader to the masses and Diplomacy?
    Well yes, there is also a difference between saying you want peace and negotiation, and massing 100k troops in the sinai after you kicked the UN out, after you let them in in a deal with said parties.

    whats the old axiom? Actions speak louder then words?


    Many countries want America destroyed. Most are still standing and most of the have done precious little to attack America.
    Again, most dont have thier militaries deployed on the border. In the case of israel lets not poh poh the fact that there were under constant threat since 47 (maybe rightfully so as they were placed there without permission for the most part) but once placed what are they to do? hope for the best?

    That didnt work for them the last time, Mr Hitler trumped thier hope.

    Israel did what it wanted - and then stated that if they hadn't they'd have been defeated. If I got £1 every time I heard Israel trot that line out...
    You would be rich, but it only takes 1 time being wrong and your goose is cooked. Given the recent history (and yes i consider WWII recent history) if I were a jew living in Israel, and were surrounded by those who were proclaiming the need for my destruction, I'd have done the same.

    and back to 67, as it turned out at the time it worked out rather nicely for them didnt it? the result was UN resolution 242 which got them recognition by Egypt and Jordan and ceased hostilities.
    Last edited by Odin; 06-05-2007 at 18:33.
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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rethinking Israel's David-and-Goliath past

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    I know Zak, and I hate those imbeciles. They're an embarrassment to this place, I'm an arrogant enough American to admit that I think these guys should know better. After all, they're from here, right?! harharhar

    But seriously, as dumb as your fellow American is, remember the people in that part of the world are equally stupid and ignorant. So don't just take a left where your dumb neighbor's taking a right, because being reflexively contrarian is just as silly as believing these 'magical land of fairy tales' shpiels.

    Go visit Israel sometime. It's a blast, the people are friendly, the history is amazing, and alot of your preconceived notions of it being a 'fascist, racist state' will be shredded. The typical Israeli I met when I was there came across as alot more liberal than most folks I know from LA or NYC (it was a little while back mind you, right before the Second Intifadah).
    Unfortunatley, when people merge into large groups of people, they seem to lose a certain amount of their freindliness, their openess and perhaps brainpower. Israel is run exactly like a racist state. Just because it's damned democracy means nilt.

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