Evaluating the Left and Left leaning Orgah mind(s)

[Meneldil]

My vote goes for AdrianII, Watchman and BG, though there are many other skilled left-leaning spokesmen.

[Fragony]

Too late. Pindar specifically said that non-leftists have to put NL before their names, otherwise they get put on the list as well.

That's EA and you for the chop.

Oh crikey, I'll just have to take the middle road and become a national-socialist then

[macsen rufus]

I guess I probably still just about qualify as being slightly left of centre, though have become profoundly cynical of and disillusioned by anything that ends in "-ism" of any sort. I still favour the ideals of the NHS, with medical care free at point of use, state education, and equality of opportunity for all, as opposed to the ideals of "richest takes all". But I also value free enterprise and deprecate controlled economies. Also as I get older I'm more willing to accept "shoot-em-all" solutions to social problems, but that's just grouchiness and laziness rather than an ideologically grounded aspect of my beliefs

I also feel that the left-right spectrum is outdated, the major issues don't really divide along the old axis any more, certainly not in Europe. Environmental and development issues I see as more important currently.

So with those general provisos, I think BG often articulates a viewpoint I can endorse, and Tribesy stirs things nicely in a way I can appreciate

[HoreTore]

I guess I probably still just about qualify as being slightly left of centre, though have become profoundly cynical of and disillusioned by anything that ends in "-ism" of any sort. I still favour the ideals of the NHS, with medical care free at point of use, state education, and equality of opportunity for all, as opposed to the ideals of "richest takes all". But I also value free enterprise and deprecate controlled economies. Also as I get older I'm more willing to accept "shoot-em-all" solutions to social problems, but that's just grouchiness and laziness rather than an ideologically grounded aspect of my beliefs

I also feel that the left-right spectrum is outdated, the major issues don't really divide along the old axis any more, certainly not in Europe. Environmental and development issues I see as more important currently.

So with those general provisos, I think BG often articulates a viewpoint I can endorse, and Tribesy stirs things nicely in a way I can appreciate

You seem like quite a typical Liberal...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

but being anti-government does not a socialist make (honestly Gawain, this is true

May I suggest you will have hard time finding anyone on these boards thats more anti-government than I. Its an unfortunate reality that we have to pick our poison. Im an anarchist at heart.

I think Gawayn of orkeny and panzerjager are perfect heralds of my personal progressive standing in the negative sense.

Theres that word again "progressive" like conservatives are regressive, Call a spade a spade your a die hard Lib And thanks for the compliment. Some one has to keep you people in line.

[rory_20_uk]

I'd have to go right wing.

I believe that individuals have responsibilities as well as rights, and such matters as the NHS undermine this: people can and do come along with any slight ache without having tried even taking paracetamol. They call ambulances as they're cheaper and quicker than taxis. People demand every drug for everyone without a thought to the economics of how this is paid for.

People should be able to choose their own destiny, and this means that actions should have consequences: doing well at school should lead to a better life than those that waste their fee education; those that lead healthy lives should have access to healthcare, and not be subsidising chronic drunks.

A burgeoning state not only manages to be a blunt cudgel to complex problems, but also throttles everyone under a mass of bureaucracy - which inevitably leads to further wastage.

[HoreTore]

People should be able to choose their own destiny, and this means that actions should have consequences: doing well at school should lead to a better life than those that waste their fee education

Ah, but this isn't the trademark of a right-wing society, is it?
All of these will bring in more money than someone doing well at school:

1. A rich heir more interested in drugs or make-up than school.
2. A mobster
3. Some random dumb chick with a nice rack, who gets "discovered" by the media/record/movie industry

[InsaneApache]

I dunno, we have 'socialists' ministers who are horrified about the prospect of sending their children to state schools, so they send them to fee paying schools. One of them was the minister for education at the time she did it.

The left to me are hypocritical and self-serving. Do as I say, not as I do, just about sums it up.

[English assassin]

1. A rich heir more interested in drugs or make-up than school.
2. A mobster
3. Some random dumb chick with a nice rack, who gets "discovered" by the media/record/movie industry

I am baffled with why the left gets hung up on this.

1. An insignificant percentage of national wealth

2 Actually, this IS still illegal under right wing governments.

3 No one HAS to buy records from/pictures of dumb chicks with nice racks. The ready availability of dumb-chick-with-nice-rack related produce is the market responding to demand. As someone who likes a nice rack as much as the next man (provided the next man isn't Benny Hill) I say this is actually a plus point. Why do you hate nice racks anyway?

[Kralizec]

NL I'd have to say Adrian II and Banquo's Ghost, as they have frequently given me food for thought. A.Saturnus too, but I haven't seen him in a long time.

Side note, not sure Aenlic qualifies as a leftist. I remember him (and could well be wrong) as an anarcho-capitalist. Didn't he say here he would vote libertarian?

[scooter_the_shooter]

NL Anelic. He is one of if not the ONLY Liberal on here that gets people to change their minds.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

NL Anelic. He is one of if not the ONLY Liberal on here that gets people to change their minds.

Is he a lobotomist ? Dr Frankenstien I presume

He may get then to change their opinions but I doubt he gets them to actually change their minds Besides many liberals on these board have gotten me to change my mind or at least reconsider my position on some matters.. Ill even admit grudgingly to Tribseman being one of the main ones

[Soulforged]

Side note, not sure Aenlic qualifies as a leftist. I remember him (and could well be wrong) as an anarcho-capitalist. Didn't he say here he would vote libertarian?

He was a self declared (and is of course) anarcho-communist. What qualifies as "the left" depends on wich is the mainstream politic view.

[Pindar]

Hmmm. To be redundant:

JAG, Aenlic, Ser Clegane and Adrian II.

Hello,

Please limit your choice to a maximum of three. One must get the axe.

[Pindar]

Aenlic however, categorises himself as an anarchist, and thus may well reject right/left labels.

He is certainly missed though.

As to the question posed by Pindar, further illuminated by his offered definition, I'm afraid I can't find an answer. The breadth of leftist thought is wide, particularly in Europe, and most of the posters that might be considered "left" often argue from a right-wing perspective too - since our "liberal" is much closer to the original meaning.

To go by self-identification, the candidates would resolve to JAG (good to see you back) and possibly Idaho.

Watchman probably embodies the character of the European left most of all, though I'd be surprised if he laid public claim to the mantle. Similarly with Adrian II - I don't see many of his views as being traditionally leftist at all, and I think he would reject the label proposed.

Over the pond, Zaknafien has recently established himself as an eloquent anti-government debater, but being anti-government does not a socialist make (honestly Gawain, this is true ). Beirut has many opinions that mirror European moderates, but then Quebec is practically Europe anyhow . solypsist was possibly the nearest to a spokesman over there - also much missed.

In short then: dunno.

Louis is the only hardline communist agitator I can think of offhand.

Do you have up to three you wish to commit to?

[Don Corleone]

The question does not look at individual arguments, but for a judgment of person(s) who the like mined typically see as best at advancing their general point of view. Your second sentence would seem to be an indictment of the believers ability to present their case.

I also allowed room where the unbelievers can also weigh in on who they think puts forward the best position for the opposition.

Okay, so I'm interpreting that to mean in my case (as slight right of center) who puts the best total package forward for left leaning.

NLSer Clegnane, Skajihata (or however you spell his name) and Ironside.

The funny thing is, Ser C would probably resent being characterized as a Lefty and considers himself to be middle of the road. Remember, this is from my perspective. Adrian would have definitely been there if this was about making Leftist arguments (and Tribesman as well for that matter) but I've seen both of them take some stridently right-leaning stances from time to time.

[Pindar]

This seems to be the totals to date, if I added correctly:

Adrian II: 5
Ser Clegane: 4
Tribesman: 4
Jag: 3
Aenlic: 2
Watchman: 2
Banguo's Ghost: 2
Econ21:1
Sjakihata : 1
Goofball: 1
Beirut: 1
Brenus: 1
Tosa Inu: 1

NL Votes

Jag: 1
Watchman: 1
Adrian II: 1
Banguo's Ghost: 1
A. Saturnus: 1
Ser Clegane: 1
Sjakihata : 1
Aenlic: 1
Ironside: 1

[Papewaio]

IMDHO
By USA Political Spectrum I would be L
By Australia Political Spectrum I would be NL

[scotchedpommes]

From my passing observation I would have said most certainly Aenlic,
Idaho and Keba.

[Honourable mentions would have to go to JAG, particularly for views on
South America, and Sjakihata. And of course, Tribesman.]

[Pannonian]

Tally as of post #49.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Adrian II: 5
Ser Clegane: 4
Tribesman: 4
Jag: 3
Aenlic: 3
Watchman: 2
Banguo's Ghost: 2
Econ21:1
Shajikata: 1
Goofball: 1
Beirut: 1
Brenus: 1
Tosa Inu: 1
Idaho: 1
Keba: 1

NL Votes

Jag: 1
Watchman: 1
Adrian II: 1
Banguo's Ghost: 1
A. Saturnus: 1
Ser Clegane: 1
Shajikata: 1
Aenlic: 1
Ironside: 1

Pindar, how many votes is it for a lynch?

[Samurai Waki]

In American Terms I'm leaning towards the Libertarian Side (Thanks to Lemur et al) but in world terms I'd be considered mostly conservative.

[Idaho]

Typical right-wingers. Always looking for leaders to make decisions for them and blame when they go wrong

Left is a pretty broad and meaningless term in this context. Some 'left' people on this board are social democrats, some american liberals (I would class these both as centrists really). Some lean further left.

Theres that word again "progressive" like conservatives are regressive

Yep that's about the size of it.

[HoreTore]

Some 'left' people on this board are social democrats, some american liberals (I would class these both as centrists really). Some lean further left.

That would depend on the type of social democrat. Some are centrists(Blair and his "new" labour), while others belong firmly on the left. Some of them are actually very well read marxists...

[Adrian II]

That little quiz reminds me of a statement by Gore Vidal: 'The U.S. has only one party, the Property Party. And it has two right wings.'

I would place myself in the extreme right-wing of Socialism, slightly to the right of Vlad the Impaler. Vlad often has the right idea, but his pr stinks.

[Pindar]

Pindar, how many votes is it for a lynch?

Culling the herd won't begin until we get a few more votes.

[doc_bean]

I'm actually pretty right wing around here (Belgium), but i guess liking cheap education and socialized health care would put me on the US right side ?

Seriously though, Pindar, you're one of the most intelligent people on this board, but why do you persist trying to find *the* left ? There is no one left, just as their is no one right, why can't you accept that ? The simplification by classifying ideas into one of two categories is ridiculous.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why do I have the feeling Pindar is going to turn this into a poll...

That being the case, I think we should spell Sjakihata correctly.
And I'd like to nominate Soulforged too. He would qualify as left leaning, and certainly deserves to be on any list.


Doc, do you think we should we open a Belgian election thread, or won't there be enough interest in it? Who are you going to vote for? VLD-Vivant?

[doc_bean]

Doc, do you think we should we open a Belgian election thread, or won't there be enough interest in it? Who are you going to vote for? VLD-Vivant?

I'll see what I can do...

[Pindar]

Seriously though, Pindar, you're one of the most intelligent people on this board, but why do you persist trying to find *the* left ? There is no one left, just as their is no one right, why can't you accept that ? The simplification by classifying ideas into one of two categories is ridiculous.

Of course, I disagree. I think classification and categories do have value. Atheism and theism are not the same. Those who identify with one or the other are making a distinction by and through that identification. Being able to recognize such including subcategories and points of departure has value. The same applies to economic/social theories.

As for the Leftist Mind, I'm always interested in observing cloudy thinking and the degrees of taint. To the question asked in this thread: I'm generally interested in who the Left leaning think of as effective or compelling champions as it were. I naturally have my own ideas on the subject. There are some posters I see as cartoons and rarely read any of their posts. Others I see as actually able to articulate a position. So, I wanted to know how my ideas compared.

[Pindar]

... I think we should spell Sjakihata correctly.

Done!