Query about V&Vs

[Kaidonni]

I'm curious about something (before I launch a final offensive against Serbia in my current Sicily/Early/Hard/GA/XL campaign)...

The enemy king, Tzar Vukan II, has 5 command. Regardless of the morale that might generate for his army, his V&Vs give -2 morale.

My king, King Roger II, has 4 command. The same as before, his V&Vs give +5 morale.

My question is this...for the general, do any of the morale-giving V&Vs ever affect the rest of the army? Or will it only be the general? Would I be better of using a 5 star general, who doesn't have the same morale-giving V&Vs, in the coming battle? Or would my king be ample? I think my 5 star general gives an extra 2 to morale from V&Vs...

What would be better, based on this information?

Unfortunately, some of the enemy units have 3 valour, while most of my units, save for my Dejma, have 2. My Dejma all have 3, I believe 2 units of Royal Knights have 4, one has 3 and one has 2. Then there's my king with 2.

I have 5 Royal Knights for the battle, 3 Dejma, 4 Feudal Seargents (sp?) and 4 Feudal Men-at-Arms. I'd have reinforcements, but I only just took Serbia and it is somewhat rebellious if I take more units from the region (and there are three strong Byzantine armies in Bulgaria...I don't want Serbia to look too appetising).

What should I do based on this information? Some of it might be a bit inaccurate, but I can't remember off of the top of my head (that and taking screenies and uploading them might take a bit of time...multiple screenies to be had if I did so).

[caravel]

V&Vs only affect the stats of a general and his unit (apart from those applicable to governors affecting provincial happiness etc). Valour or morale affects the unit as a whole, loyalty command, piety dread and acumen only affect the general himself, but of course as command affects all of the units in his stack this affects all of the other units valour (only). So you can think of vices or virtues affecting command as the only ones that will affect the army as a whole.

-Edit: I'm slipping a bit. The vices that incur morale penalties such as "doubtful courage" also affect the whole army stack. Beware of these as they can ruin a good general. You may be in a battle and wondering why your men are running away despite the generals stars, check his V&Vs.

Those vices and virtues relating to valour do only affect that general's unit though and not the whole army.

[Kaidonni]

Ah. Might be best not to use my king for the battle then...

[Martok]

A general's vices and virtues affect his *entire* army, not just his personal unit. Thus, a 4-star general with the Fine/Natural Leader virtues is usually better than a 6-star general with the Good Runner/Eager to Retreat vices.

[caravel]

Yes I was referring to the affects on the general's stats that some vices and virtues have. For example vices affecting acumen don't affect the acumen of every general in the army. AFAIK the morale increment/decrement is the only stat modifier from a vice or virtue that affects the entire army under the general.

[Caerfanan]

Yes I was referring to the affects on the general's stats that some vices and virtues have. For example vices affecting acumen don't affect the acumen of every general in the army. AFAIK the morale increment/decrement is the only stat modifier from a vice or virtue that affects the entire army under the general.

Hum. So, to be clear, if a general has a virtue that gives +2 valour, the bonus will be given only to his unit, and not all the army? but a thign like good runner affects the entire army doesn't it?

(What I ould give to have the F1 key in battle displaying the actual values of a unit, and not the starting values....)

EDIT: And now that I read your previous edit. I could try to summarise!
Vice/Vertues affecting morale affect the whole army (am I right for virtues?)
Vice/Virtues affecting valour affect the whole unit
Vice/Virtue affecting stats affect the character only (plus his province for acumen/dread/piety if he's a governor)
Command affect the whole army by givig a +1 attack/ +1 defence "valour bonus" (no morale as for actual valour gained on the field)

[caravel]

Yes, you've got that right.

[Ironside]

A general rule IMO is that any general (even an 8-star one) is close to useless, if having more than -3 in morale penalty. Too unrealible.

Generals with good morale bonuses can be useful to groom, as they are rare and very strong (had a +10 morale general once, only one unit did ever rout under his command and that was after 98% casualities on that unit).

[macsen rufus]

I'd second what Ironside said, bad morale-reducing vices can do a lot of damage to your army's effectiveness. I have in the past had a 6* "good runner" lose a battle through mass rout, yet when I replayed it using a 2* stand-in (by shifting the original general into the reinforcements) who had no vices or virtues, it was an easy win. If you get as many morale upgrades for your troops as possible (grand mosque/cathedral etc) then it will help to offset some of the losses due to "good runner" vices. By the time your general gets to "doubtful courage" with "retreats often" it's a wonder anyone even turns up for the battle in the first place "Ooh look, the enemy has sent two peasants with a white flag -- RUN AWAY!!!!"

[Agent Miles]

Here's a general rundown of morale tweaks from the MTW Numerology thread:

"The different states of Morale, and their numerical values:

Impetuous: 10 and above
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -6
Routing: "Complete Guide to TotalWar Units" Guide over at the www.totalwar.org

*** Positive Morale Factors ****

+2 Morale for every point of valor
+2 Morale for the Generals unit (automatic)
+1 Morale for being within 50 meters of your General (for every command point the General has)
+1 Morale if further than 50 meters from your General (for every TWO command points the General has)
+4 Morale for outnumbering enemy troops
+4 Morale for having a units flank protected
+2 Morale for being uphill of enemy units
+4 Morale bonus to units charging on their own because they are impetuous
+6 Morale if a unit is "winning"
+4 Morale to nearby units if there is a 3:1 advantage in local superiority
+8 Morale when two or more enemy units are routed
+8 Morale to any units fighting where there is no escape (ie Castle defense, or surrounded by enemy provinces)
+4 Morale for routing units with no enemy nearby
+8 Morale for routing units that rally


*** Negative Morale Modifiers ***

-2 Morale to units in "Loose" or a disordered formation
-3 Morale for units being "Very Tired"
-6 Morale for units being "Exhausted"
-8 Morale for units being "Completely Exhausted"
-2 Morale for being shot at by Missles
-4 Morale if those Missiles "Cause Fear" (ie Cannon)
-4 Morale is outnumbered by the enemy at 2:1
-12 Morale maximum if outnumbered by the enemy 10:1 (could be less)
-2 Morale if a flank is threatened
-6 Morale if both flanks or a flank and the rear is threatened
-4 Morale if charged on a flank
-6 Morale additional if infantry is charged on a flank by Cavalry
-8 Morale if charged on a flank by a hidden unit
-2 Morale if unit takes 10% casualties
-8 Morale if unit takes 50% casualties
-12 Morale if unit takes 80% casualties
-8 Morale maximum if unit is "Losing" (could be less)
-6 Morale additional to infantry "Losing" against Cavalry
-12 Morale maximum if two or more friendly units rout (could be less, depending on type)
-8 Morale immediately following General's death (temporary)
-2 Morale permanently following General's death (does not impact Elite or Disciplined units)
-6 Morale to skirmishers running out of ammunition
-6 Morale to skirmishers being pursued long distances (not sure just how long)

SP Campaign Game settings:

+4 Morale to your troops on Easy
+4 Morale to AI faction troops on Expert
+12 Morale to ALL units if Morale is turned off in realism settings"

[Caerfanan]

Wow, Agent Miles, that's some piece of information!

Thanks a lot!

I guess there is something like a morale test every X seconds in the battle for each unit?

The morale modifiers look like huge as compared to starting values and/or maluses/bonuses from battle circumstances. A very tired outnumbered unit down hill has something like -12 morale...

Man I would so much have an opportunity to see a unit actual stat when wanted...

[doctrellor]

Thx for the info

No wonder my Boyars rock

They usually have like 3 to 5 valor when starting out and after a few battles, I have seen 7 or 8 valor..so with the King and a few Princes, I could have like 400 boyars on the field ready to do a buttload of damage...

good info

[Agent Miles]

Caerfanan, The way I learned to use morale is to save and then watch battle replays. By cursoring over your units during a battle, you can see an approximation of their morale, steady or wavering, etc. During a replay, you can do this with the AI units too. You can experiment and see when and where it is best to apply force to get the best result. In my Jaffa AAR, https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/...ntMiles/Jaffa/
you can see Saladin’s larger army chain routing after I send my footknights into a gap in his lines. I don’t even attack his units with the knights. The mere presence of my knights on his flank causes his unit to waver and rout. Morale is a very important aspect of the battle.

[Caerfanan]

Wow, documented explanations and all!

What surprises me in the battles is how huge can be the "circumstances modifiers" in frotn of the actual morale values of the units. Buth then this gives to the good tacticians a way to win battles "lost on the paper".

[scowie]

Some V&Vs affect the entire army, some affect the general's unit and some affect just the general himself. I don't think you can say that all valour related ones are of the same type.

e.g. there is one virtue about the general being good in personal combat, in that case I think it is just him who gets the valour boost, whereas the one about him inspiring great deads in his men affects his unit. There is no valour related V&V that affects a whole army's valour (unless you count command rating V&Vs).

I think all morale-related V&Vs affect all the people under the general/captain, so if it is a general who has it, the whole army gets the morale boost, if it's a captain, then it's just the unit.

[caravel]

Welcome scowie 1, I know of you from the .com, but perhaps you don't remember me. It is quite a while since I was a regular poster there.

Some V&Vs affect the entire army, some affect the general's unit and some affect just the general himself. I don't think you can say that all valour related ones are of the same type.

e.g. there is one virtue about the general being good in personal combat, in that case I think it is just him who gets the valour boost, whereas the one about him inspiring great deads in his men affects his unit. There is no valour related V&V that affects a whole army's valour (unless you count command rating V&Vs).

I'm not sure about vices/virtues affecting personal valour. From what I've seen those v&vs affect the whole unit, the change is visible. A valour boost affecting the general only would not be visible and not have that much value. The pride vice for example always affects the entire unit, despite it referring to the individual himself, but not the whole army.

I think all morale-related V&Vs affect all the people under the general/captain, so if it is a general who has it, the whole army gets the morale boost, if it's a captain, then it's just the unit.

Yes, in basic terms, apart from the generals specific stats of loyalty, command, piety, dread and acumen, valour has a per unit affect and a morale penalty/bonus affects all units under that generals command when in battle, whether they are in the unit or in the army.

[scowie]

I'm not sure about vices/virtues affecting personal valour. From what I've seen those v&vs affect the whole unit, the change is visible. A valour boost affecting the general only would not be visible and not have that much value. The pride vice for example always affects the entire unit, despite it referring to the individual himself, but not the whole army.

I think you're right actually, but what made me think that is something else that I have noticed...

It seems that the valour boost from these virtues is given to the men in the generals unit at the time the virtue appears. That means that if some of these men die in battle and are replaced with green men by merging with another unit, the greens do not get the valour boost from their new leader.

This is evidenced in my current campaign by finding a couple of enemy generals with virtues giving +2 valour, yet the unit only has a 1 valour average. I have noticed this phenomenon in the past when merging units myself too.