Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

[Frostwulf]

It seems to me that the Sweboz units in general are a bit underpowered. Im only comparing the Sweboz units to the Roman units as I feel the Celtic units are way overpowered. I think that the Swaiut(tribal) units in general are well done with the exception of maybe a bump in morale. I also think that the Merjoz (elite axe) should have an increased attack value. I would like to see a few more elite units though none should surpass the stats of the hundaskapiz or the Gastiz. I think these are well done and should be the best Sweboz infantry units.

I stated in https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83475 that I thought the Celt cavalry was weaker than it should be. I didnt see the Remi Mairepos (Belgae heavy cavalry) or the Brihentin (Gallic noble cavalry), therefore I stand corrected that they do have appropriate cavalry. The Sweboz on the other hand do not have adequate cavalry. The Sweboz are missing both heavy and noble cavalry. Ariovistus was mounted and had cavalry with him in his meeting with Caesar. While the Celt cavalry mostly defeated the Roman cavalry up till the Romans started using Celt cavalry, the German cavalry consistently defeated the Celt cavalry. The Sweboz heavy and noble cavalry should be better then the Celt cavalry. I understand that the Germans historically were mostly infantry, but they did have outstanding cavalry and was hoping that they will be added.

[ElectricEel]

It seems to me that the Sweboz units in general are a bit underpowered.

Keep in mind that the Sweboz have access to a line of religious buildings that can give their units a +2 experience boost (in addition to the +1 boost from the game fields). Of course, if the romans have access to a similar boost, that can be ignored when comparing the two (I haven't played as Rome yet in EB). Though I do think the basic clubmen are overpriced (or should have their stats upgraded to be closer to the spearmen).

The Sweboz on the other hand do not have adequate cavalry. The Sweboz are missing both heavy and noble cavalry.

From what little I know of the subject, I must agree. There was a little discussion of this in this thread.

I think a new German cavalry unit is being added, but that's a 'wait-and-see' issue ;)
The ridoharjoz aren't actually bad, they're just lighter than the hippophiles among us would like.

...they should do well enough on flank and rear charges and as router-chasers, and ought to be able to cream the Celtic Leuce Epos types in a straight fight due to their higher base combat skills (the latter are of the underhand cav spear type with very low base attack, high delay, high charge and AP - not a very good combination against high-skill low-armour enemies like the Sweboz obviously).

[Kralizec]

...they should do well enough on flank and rear charges and as router-chasers, and ought to be able to cream the Celtic Leuce Epos types in a straight fight due to their higher base combat skills (the latter are of the underhand cav spear type with very low base attack, high delay, high charge and AP - not a very good combination against high-skill low-armour enemies like the Sweboz obviously).

Hmm, I always figured the Leuce Epos would win because the lethality of overhand spear attacks like that of the Ridoharjoz have a low lethality, wich makes the base attack value deceptive. The only way to be sure is to fire up a custom battle, though.

Leuce Epos are still much better at skirmishing though IMO, the Ridoharjoz
have a higher missile value, but their range is considerably shorter and they carry only 2 javelins versus 5 for the Leuce Epos.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Based on my experience as Aedui: the Leuce Epos are just as advertised, a somewhat undervalued light cavalry force which can go toe to toe with most medium and light cavalry and even beat them.

Ridoharjoz aren't that good. Not at all: they appear to break much faster. However their wedge formation should make up for this in the dense forests: it already is considerably difficult to maintain your battle lines with units that can do the shieldwall formation - so any good charge, even from the lightest of cavalry in the rear is just enough to split your lines apart.

[LordCurlyton]

Everyone always knocks the Ridharjoz and Clubmen; I dunno why. I'm not a historical expert, but I can't recall any tales of the Fearsome Germanic Heavy Cavalry Charges, its more the Fearsome Whacked-Out-Berserk Infantry Charge. Ergo, at BEST, they should only get a "medium cavalry" that would be roughly on par with, say, Hippeis, since Hippeis perform well enough, but definitely not anything like Successor cavalry. Also, my in-game experience with Ridharjoz and Clubmen is nothing but positive. Even without a charge bonus at all (my only complaint, since even sword cav get a charge bonus of some type) Ridharjoz eat Leuce Epos alive and spit the remains back out. And I like Leuce Epos, too, but Ridharjoz are much better at dealing with the enemies for which they are surrounded by. The clubmen, too, are pretty darn awesome. That AP places a hurting on folks like the Romans, and they are FAST. In fact, most of the German army is FAST. Which is awesome in so many ways.

[Watchman]

I know enough about Caesar's Gallic campaigns to know he tended to rely pretty heavily on Germanic mercs and allies for his cavalry arm - and those were apparently usually more than able to whip markedly superior numbers of their Gallic peers. Not that he didn't employ a lot of Gauls for the same purpose too, but the Germans were apparently of markedly higher calibre all other things being equal.

Wonder if you could scratch-build a decent heavy-cavalry placeholder from the Gastiz model and pulling them stats out of Tha Sombrero...?

[Frostwulf]

Keep in mind that the Sweboz have access to a line of religious buildings that can give their units a +2 experience boost (in addition to the +1 boost from the game fields). Of course, if the romans have access to a similar boost, that can be ignored when comparing the two (I haven't played as Rome yet in EB). Though I do think the basic clubmen are overpriced (or should have their stats upgraded to be closer to the spearmen)

I was going by the base morale, as Im sure most factions have some sort of morale boosters such as buildings etc. etc. As far as the pricing of units, some do seem more expensive then should be but Im not familiar enough with the issues that go into it to make much of a statement.
Also thanks for the info on the other thread

I'm not a historical expert, but I can't recall any tales of the Fearsome Germanic Heavy Cavalry Charges, its more the Fearsome Whacked-Out-Berserk Infantry Charge. Ergo, at BEST, they should only get a "medium cavalry" that would be roughly on par with, say, Hippeis, since Hippeis perform well enough, but definitely not anything like Successor cavalry.

I agree with Mightypeon when he says:

What I think is historically incorrect is the pathethic german Cavalry.
Historically, Caesar made great use of German mercenary Cavalry units in his Gaullish wars, where they proved to be significantly better than their Gaullish equivalents.

Caesars cavalry while in Gaul were attacked by 800 German cavalry. The 800 Germans charged the 2000-3500 Roman cavalry, routed them and chased them all the way back to Caesars base camp 2 miles away. Caesar used the Germans in their own fighting style (as did other Roman commanders in later dates) to great effect as shock troops. The German cavalry was better then the Gallic cavalry which in turn were generally better then their Roman counter parts.

[Pharnakes]

Surely the Germanics never fielded anything even closley on a par with the Brehihntin and the Belgae heavies (can't remeber the name) though?