Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

[Lowenklee]

The following passage is pasted directly from the wiki article on "Germanic peoples". I think it may lay interesting groundwork for establishing a Sweboz reform date.


"The development of La Tene culture extended to the north around 200-150 BC, including the North German Plain, Denmark and Southern Scandinavia".

"In certain cremation graves, situated at some distance from other graves, Celtic metalwork appears: brooches and swords, together with wagons, Roman cauldrons and drinking vessels. The area of these rich graves is the same as the places where later (first century AD) princely graves are found. A ruling class seems to have emerged, distinguished by the possession of large farms and rich gravegifts such as weapons for the men and silver objects for the women, imported earthenware and Celtic items".

Sources as follows,

Parker Pearson 1989:202

Runes around the North Sea and on the Continent AD 150-700 - Looijenga, Jantina Helena - II.2, From the pre-Roman Iron Age to the late-Germanic Iron Age, University of Groningen, 1997.

The dissertation piece written by Dr. Jantina Helena Looijenga goes on to state,


"This process continued throughout the beginning of this era and is especially noticeable in Jutland and on Funen. The first historical contacts with the Romans took place during this period. The journey of the Cimbri and Teutons from Jutland, at the end of the second century BC, possibly resulted from different motives: e.g. internal struggles for power, overpopulation, climatic changes and long-distance trade, which included the import of prestige goods.

The pre-Roman Iron Age Germanic society hardly knew any private property (perhaps apart from cattle), and certainly no privately owned land, since this was common property (Hedeager 1992a:245). The agriculture of the celtic fieldsystem could not expand much and an increase of agricultural production was not possible, which put a strain on society. The first four centuries AD saw a reorganisation of the villages, the redistribution of land, improved tools and a larger produce of the fields.

Hedeager (1992a:245) conjectures that the early weapon deposits, and perhaps also the bog offerings of people in the north of Jutland, bear witness of internal conflicts. The differentiation process that may have started at around 150 BC continued till the development of royal power centres centuries later (Hedeager 1992a:244ff.).

With the increase of the number of landowners (and private property), new tensions and conflicts could originate within the community. The accumulation of property produced a new elite. Social status became important, which was expressed by the possession of prestige
goods (Hedeager 1988a:137ff.). Literacy, used for spiritual or profane purposes, may be expected to have developed among high-placed persons or privileged groups".

The dissertation is available as a pdf download if anyone is interested in reading it in full. A simple google search should suffice.

[Frostwulf]

Thanks for the info Lowenklee,

[keravnos]

This is VERY, VERY interesting stuff.

I will echo Sarcasm here, and congratulate all of you on excellent comments made.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Thankyou for the excellent read gentlemen.

So, from reading Caesers account of the germanic mercs in action(been a while since I read his account), what sort of stats would make germanic cav fair, a higher charge and attack, to represent what appears to be their obviously superior ferocity?

Seen as germanic cav didn't seem to be available in large numbers, would a smaller unit size of say 80 men instead of 100(huge unit size) be in order? Perphaps this is better than just making them expensive(to keep the numbers low)?

[Frostwulf]

Im a bit hesitant to reply as I dont know how the stats are applied or what they are based on. If the stats are straight forward then I would base the German cavalry similar to the Remi Mairepos but I would give them a stronger charge and attack factor as well as higher morale. I didnt find anything on how many casualties the Germans took but there must have been enough of them left to continually chase off the Gauls. If this is the case and with the number of Gauls they were facing I would give their defense at least on par with the Remi Mairepos if not higher.

[blitzkrieg80]

This discussion and supplimentary citations are indeed very interesting thanks to you guys who spend time carefully supporting your arguments with real evidence and clear logic. This thread does much to support the continued development and evolution of the Sweboz faction, so great job people! Keep up the good work done by supplying proof whether it be logic (as most of the time we must go on with so few sources) or actual references, for these kinds of changes we're actually noting to consider/propose to the team, such as with the new cavalry and reform. The Sweboz have been neglected in the consuming greatness of so many other great elements of EBness but not for long!

If anybody wants to disagree, POST IT! We need information, we need dialogue and comments and the synthesis that can only come through the interaction of your great minds, devout and casual, fan and historian alike. Please try to base your argument on game balance or historical/archaeological evidence because that will be most effective.

Good news! Thanks to the great generosity of Shigawire, I will have additional resources so that I may truly begin translating/reconstructing ProtoGermanic for the Sweboz voice mod

[QwertyMIDX]

Im a bit hesitant to reply as I dont know how the stats are applied or what they are based on. If the stats are straight forward then I would base the German cavalry similar to the Remi Mairepos but I would give them a stronger charge and attack factor as well as higher morale. I didnt find anything on how many casualties the Germans took but there must have been enough of them left to continually chase off the Gauls. If this is the case and with the number of Gauls they were facing I would give their defense at least on par with the Remi Mairepos if not higher.

Why do you use the Remi Mairepos as your base? They weren't fighting them in any of the examples you mentioned.

[Laundreu]

Why do you use the Remi Mairepos as your base? They weren't fighting them in any of the examples you mentioned.

Quite. Wouldn't the Brihentin work better, if indeed Celtic heavy cavalry needs to be the base used?

[the_handsome_viking]

I think that certain club soldiers should be definitely more powerful, because according to what I've read on the subject, it wasn't so much a lack of weapons technology or resources for club warriors, but in many cases an actual natural preference for the advantages of the weapon, for example, the Eastern Romans recognized its potential and used Germanic club warriors against various Sassanid Cataphracts to stunning effect, though this was much later on than the period in EB, this ancient weapons potential would not have changed.

Also the Germans seem to lack berserker elites wearing wolf hoods or bear hoods which were actually pretty common believe it or not.

[Lowenklee]

Also the Germans seem to lack berserker elites wearing wolf hoods or bear hoods which were actually pretty common believe it or not.

Sources please?

[Sarcasm]

My God man! It was in vanilla RTW! Get your act together!

[the_handsome_viking]

Sources please?

Ancient Germanic Warriors

Warrior Styles From Trajan's Column to Icelandic Sagas

Michael P. Speidel.

I made a thread about it a while ago to see if anyone else has read it.

It was something of a famous Indo-European warrior style, or warrior thing to emulate the wolf and wear wolf hoods.

When it comes to the Germanic people, there are clear depictions of wolf hood wearing germans on trajan's column scene 36, you also see depictions of bear hooded Germans.

As I've said before, it was a very big thing amongst the Indo-Europeans to emulate various animals I suppose they saw something quite likeable in, and this is why you have examples of Romans, Germans, Greeks etc wearing wolf hoods or referring to Wolf skin clad bersekers and elite warriors.

We know that there were clearly Wolf skin wearing warriors in the late Roman empire, and we definitely know they existed to some extent still in the middle ages, the top of a seventh century scabbered from Gutenstein shows a wolf headed warrior with a giant sword, he also seems to be wearing chain mail.

A silver foil from Obrigheim, depicts a wolf skin wearing warrior offering his sword to Woden. A bronze die from torslunda depicts Woden with a twin-dragon helmet and a wolf headed warrior standing near him drawing his sword and holding a spear.

I can understand that a lot of people get wary when it comes to things like depictions of ancient Germanic warriors wearing things like wolf hoods, at least elite berserker types or sort of moral boosting elite soldiers, but it seems evidently clear that not only did they exist amongst the Germans, but that it was something commong throughout the Indo-European world in general.

There should be at least one band of German warriors in EB that wear wolf skins because it seemed to be quite a common thing in general, or at least perhaps the standard bearers in German units could wear wolf hoods.

[Frostwulf]

Perhaps the Germans do deserve something of a status boost. The question for me though is what would the standard equipment of Ariovistus's army have been?

In 14 years of campaign in rich Gaul? I'd say very well equipped.

They definitely wouldn't have fought in the what I'd describe as the bare minium kit of a Germanic warrior, that being a shield, possibly with a shield boss and a few frame.

I'd imagine lots of superior Celtic equipment being used. Longswords, Longer shields, various types of helmets and undoubtably a few with chainmail.

A lot of the higher chieftains would undoubtedly have Celtic equipment, by importing, stealing or having been gifted it by their employers. We know the Germans already copied things like spearheads and shields, so I figured they'd be armed just like a well equipped Celtic army.

According to John Warry "Warfare in the Classical World" on pg.161 he list's number of soldiers as:
Caesar: 21000 Legionaries plus Gallic horse (4000) and other auxiliaries
Ariovistus: Germans tribal levy en masse (from community of 120,000); includes 6000 horse-men with 6000 footmen and 16000 light infantry.

He doesn't go into detail of the troop make up other then making the distinction of light infantry. It seems of the 22000 troops, 6000 of them had decent armor. That of course is pure speculation on my part. But it is also worth noting of the arms and armor of the TCA, roughly 50 years earlier.

On a bit different topic, you know how the current Hundaskaspiz are a placeholder ? I've just been thinking if there were not a better placeholder solution possible, to represent them being the pick of the common warriors of the tribe rather than the nobility and their role as "point man" shock troops. Would it seem like a feasible idea to make them use some suitable "commoner" skin/model (say, Frameharjoz, as those are basically the standard "universal troopers" of the Sweboz), amp the stats, lower the base size to something like 30, muck around with the prices, and slap the "command" trait on the unit - essentially making them a Germanic version of the Casse "hero" units, what now far more humbly armed ?

Model space/skin usage determines much of how the future units will look, but as it turns out i have decided on the Hundafulkan using the same model as the Baldrōz ("Bold ones" or "Heroes"). Lightly armored, spear being their primary weapon... although i'm not quite sure if i want to use an axe or sword for secondary, both being problematic for them.

I think both of you guys have good idea's on this. There are things I would still like to see for the Germans though.
Cavalry:I would like to see a heavy cavalry unit, not well armored but high attack and a high skilled defense. Perhaps a noble cavalry along the same lines as the heavy cavalry with better armor.

Infantry: An increase to morale to most of the units. Perhaps an increase in attack and defense to some of the units?

I did a few tests with some units and some things that surprised me. The Heruskoz lost to the Batacorii every time. According to the stats on the cards this shouldn't have happened. The Laecha (Gaul) were also prone to losing against Frameharjoz. Is there another way to gauge a units stats other then doing tests unit vs unit or the cards? The cards are not portraying the stats as I would expect them to. I also don't have enough time to test unit vs unit.
I also tests on Cohors Imperatoria vs Solduros and both were of equal soldiers, not units (300men each). The Solduros won. If I went unit on unit the Cohors won.
I don't agree with the idea that its ok to have Celt elite units stronger then their Roman counter parts. The excuse that they have fewer in number, have less soldiers,cost more and are rare still doesn't matter. I still believe the Soduros,Rycalwre and etc. should have slight reductions and bring them at best on par with the Cohors Reformata. Reduce the Cost of these Celt elite units and make them more available.
One other idea, increase the morale for the Batacorii. The Belgae where known for their bravery and according to the cards they are average Celt morale. Also increase the morale of the veteran Cohors Evocata should be increased.
Again Im going by the cards on morale so I very well could be wrong on how this works.

[Watchman]

Personally, I prefer looking up the stats in export_descr_units.txt. Pretty much the only thing you don't see there is the units' movement speeds (which are governed by what skeletons they've been defined to use in descr_model_battle.txt).

[blitzkrieg80]

rather than messing with stats that already seem to work, I think it would be cool to have more regionals, such as a Cimbri, or Rugi variants... The Wōdanezharīz is a Harii regional now of the Lugii, so no worries for anyone missing the berserkr-like guy, but he's been reconceptualized as a cultist of Wodan, no wolf about him, just good ole ecstatic "inspiration" of the god of change (wind/travel) himself.

[Frostwulf]

Thanks for the info. Watchman.

rather than messing with stats that already seem to work, I think it would be cool to have more regionals, such as a Cimbri, or Rugi variants... The Wōdanezharīz is a Harii regional now of the Lugii, so no worries for anyone missing the berserkr-like guy, but he's been reconceptualized as a cultist of Wodan, no wolf about him, just good ole ecstatic "inspiration" of the god of change (wind/travel) himself.

The only reason I would like to see the stat changes is that I think they are off historically. I really like the idea of regionals, there are many things that can be done with that. Also is there still better cavalry in the works?

[Sirfiggin]

How about this: German reforms. I'm no expert, so I can't say when they happen (do they have the general gallic reform?) but at first the Sweboz only get the "angry savage" barbarian infantry- great shock units with high attack but little or no armor and fragile morale, but then, say when the Romans reach the Marian age or the Sweboz win enough battles against them, they train more professional, but still true barbarian; heavy cavalry, infantry, missile and light artillery (if not too unhistorical) also, were did the Suebi King who fought Caesar get such good horsemen when the germans don't get cavalry the game?

[blitzkrieg80]

thanks for the comment.

well, 1 added HVY cavalry already in the game, and after this upcoming work, 1 added MED cavalry, which = 3 cav and that should represent those cool guys Caesar admired on the other side of the Rhine...

Sweboz Reforms already planned... the tentative plan is: no recruitable Bodyguard before the Reform and no Heavy cavalry either, but afterwards those units are available to reflect increased access to iron and metallurgical centers/ weapon market...

otherwise, there are some happy stat changes coming which involve Clubmen not being fodder and hopefully a more expensive and more effective light cavalry... the Chatii spearman will be a nice high quality regional of the "Proven" Spearman. the Chatti clubman will indeed be a shock troop but with less defense because of zeal... a wolf-skin shock troop who lives on the fringe of society's borders deep in the forest, so only recruitable as a MERC similar to the Gastiz. The black skinned Harii regional will be changed to a night-raider who merely references the practice used in Lugi territory. leather helms all around on appropriate units... denser formations for appropriate units, to represent the shield-wall in the absence of phalanx ability, such as for the pike unit, whose name is going to be AWESOME (it's a suprise)

[Frostwulf]

eh, great selection of quotes, but this is the Sweboz thread

The reason for the quotes is to back up some of my claims, I ran short of time and was not able to continue my quotes. The quotes I posted of the Celtic cavalry do have a relevance which I will put down at the end of the quotes on this post.

were did the Suebi King who fought Caesar get such good horsemen when the germans don't get cavalry the game?

There is German cavalry currently in the game, but they are not of the quality of the ones of Ariovistus nor of the Germanic mercenary cavalry Caesar had.

Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"A cavalry combat took place in the fields outside the town, and the Romans eventually won this when Caesar threw in his band of 400 Germans."pg.323
This took place at the town of Noviodunum.


Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"On the following day the Gaulish cavalry attacked in three groups-one striking the heead of the column and th eothers threatening the flanks. Caesar's cavalry were heavily outnumbered but he likewise divided them into three groups and moved up the infantry as close support whenever they were hard pressed. The legionaries could not catch the enemy horsemen, but they provided a solid block for their own horsemen to rally behind and re-form. In the end the Germans won the combat on the right, routing the warriors facing them and causing the rest to withdraw. pg.335

Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"The Romans began to work on a monumental set of siegeworks, with a rampart stretching for 11 miles and including twenty-three fortlets as well as larger camps in which the soldiers would rest. The Gauls did not let this go unmolested and sent their cavalry down to attack. They were met by the auxiliary and allied cavalry, but it was not unitl Caesar committed his reserve of German horsemen and formed up some of the legionaries in support that the Gauls were driven back."pg.336-337
At Alesia.


Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"As a gesture of confidence, Caesar sent his cavalry out from the lines to engage the horsemen of the relief force. A whirling fight developed and lasted throughout the afternoon, and seemed for a long time to have been going the Gauls' way,when once again Caesar's German cavalry charged and won the day for the Romans." pg.339-340
When Gallic relief forces showed up at Alesia.

There is an obvious theme here. The outnumbered Roman(Gallic allies) cavalry is having problems with the Gallic("rebel") cavalry and income the outnumbered German cavalry to save the day.

As to how the Germanic cavalry worked:

Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"Ariovistus' horsemen worked closely with picked light infantry-who in later centuries were known to the Germans as the 'hundred'(centeni)-capable over short distances of keeping pace with the horses by grabbing onto their manes. The warriors on foot acted as a solid support, behind which the cavalry could retreat if worsted, and rest and re-form before advancing again. The tactics and quality of the Germanic warriors usually gave them the edge over Gaulish cavalry." pg.229

The German cavalry as explained above didnt have the light infantry intermingled with them when they engaged their enemies. I'm sure they did fight with them at times but in general they were simply support.

So your asking why did I revist this subject! The reason is Blitz did something I didnt think anyone would be able to accomplish, he got heavy cavalry for the Sweboz!WOOT! I think it's a very good thing. The problem I have with this is as follows:

Why do you use the Remi Mairepos as your base? They weren't fighting them in any of the examples you mentioned.

The Remi were not mentioned in my earlier quotes but Caesar did have them in his Cavalry, so yes the German cavalry did fight the Remi. 800 German cavalry charged and defeated 5,000 of Caesar's cavalry which would have included Remi Mairepos.

In fact in most of the examples we're not even talking about heavy cavalry, but about light cavalry like the Luce Epos (that unit is actually sort of a conglomeration of the light and medium cavalry of gaul, but its the closest we can get).

Not only did I show that most of the units Caesar fought against were NOT Luce Epos in this https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...3&postcount=37 I added even more from more authors a couple of posts ago.https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=219 These quotes saying "elite","shock" etc. not to mention the arms and armorment of the cavalry that Caesar used and that was used against him show without a doubt that these units are brihentin and Remi Mairepos.

I also added more 2 more authors and their quotes and books which dispells the devastating "Gallic Civil War" theory.

What I'm getting at is that the stats that are to be awarded to the German heavy cavalry will be woefully inadequate from a historical perspective. The German cavalry consistantly defeated a numerically superior Gallic cavalry. The stats that the German cavalry have will be at best marginally better, certainly not even close to doing what they did historically.

Blitz like I said before you did something I didn't think would happen and I glad for that. I will try to get more TCA information to you, but most likely it will be or their movements and vague remarks on their martial prowess. What you got from Plutarch is the most descriptive I have come across but I will continue to look.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, to me, Sweboz was one of the most difficult factions to fight against, as Romani (second only to horse archer factions)... Gameplay-wise they don't seem too underpowered to me... Any tips on how to beat them with Camillan units and bad economy?