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Thread: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

  1. #121
    Closet Celtophile Member Redmeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    Throughout the Gallic campaigns German warriors consistently defeated their Gallic counterparts, each success adding to their fierce reputation. Pg.274
    I don't mean to be rude but that's like the 100th time you quoted that line, we got the picture, don't you also have more sources?

    And also, Caesar's campaigns are just a moment in time when perhaps the Celts were in decline and the German warriors that rode with Caesar were veterans of elite status and probably very well equipped from all the raiding, can you generalize this to every single German tribesman that picked up a weapon?

  2. #122

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Well if we increased the morale/training of German units it would have to be higher end units, since it's ridiculous for any levy/low class to be very good against professional warriors, and the cost would increase tremendously, because that's how the system works... so i don't think that's a solution.... on the other hand, if we pick some units to make more elite since the Harii unit has been taken away as a region-wide elite unit, that might be much more do-able and realistic...

    yes, a Brihentin reskin is something I plan on having implemented as a post-reform expensive companion cavalry. At the moment there is no way to get another cavalry unless we can figure out another faction's model we can reskin. Anybody know of any other factions who have Germanic-looking at all cavalry?
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 06-30-2007 at 18:04.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  3. #123

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmeth
    I don't mean to be rude but that's like the 100th time you quoted that line, we got the picture, don't you also have more sources?
    Unless I misunderstood Watchman he is saying that the German tribal units being on par with the Celtic warrior class is generous seems to say that he thinks the Celts should be stronger. I put this quote down for a reminder of what others had said. As far as sources for the subject of 71BC-50BC I'm using James,Warry,Speidel,Goldsworthy,Sidnell for the most part but also some from Todd and one quote from Wolfram. Sorry if this isn't enough sources, I actually have been looking for others that go in depth on this area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmeth
    And also, Caesar's campaigns are just a moment in time when perhaps the Celts were in decline and the German warriors that rode with Caesar were veterans of elite status and probably very well equipped from all the raiding, can you generalize this to every single German tribesman that picked up a weapon?
    From what I gather from the above authors the Celt's were not on a decline until the coming of the Germans and Romans. The German cavalry from varying tribes were just tough, even before they rode with Caesar. I don't generalize saying the Germans were well equipped. The Germans in general were not very well equipped and neither were the ones that routed Caesars cavalry or the ones that destroyed the Menapii. Even though the Germans were not well equipped for the most part they managed to defeat the Celts consistently.
    Last edited by Frostwulf; 06-30-2007 at 18:23.

  4. #124

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    Well if we increased the morale/training of German units it would have to be higher end units, since it's ridiculous for any levy/low class to be very good against professional warriors, and the cost would increase tremendously, because that's how the system works... so i don't think that's a solution.... on the other hand, if we pick some units to make more elite since the Harii unit has been taken away as a region-wide elite unit, that might be much more do-able and realistic...
    All I'm saying is that most of the Swaiut have an 11 morale and it should be a little more then their Celt counter parts who also have an 11 morale. I am by no means saying the German Swaiut units should be able to take on elites on equal terms and win. I am saying that the German mid line units should be able to beat the Celt mid line units consistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    yes, a Brihentin reskin is something I plan on having implemented as a post-reform expensive companion cavalry. At the moment there is no way to get another cavalry unless we can figure out another faction's model we can reskin. Anybody know of any other factions who have Germanic-looking at all cavalry?
    Glad to hear that.

  5. #125
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Frosty, I think you're forgetting that there is IRL far more to winning wars and battles than the calibre of soldiery - as indeed many an EB player knows as well, especially if they like playing factions near the Grey Death...

    Frankly, it is quite likely that all other things being equal a random member of the Celtic warrior class was a better fighter than the equally random German tribesman. This is suggested already by the simple difference in the time both could dedicate to combat training (given that both got engaged in small-scale raids on a regular basis) - the difference between a specialist and a part-timer.

    My bet is that where the Germans were superior (eventually anyway) was tactics, "what the weak use to overcome the strong" as it's also been described. The shieldwall, which they appear to have been very fond of but which was apparently rather rare among the Celts, is basically the formation for multiplying the fighting power of not-so-well-armed or -trained troops; part-time militias fighting in such fashion regularly proved themselves the match of even quite high-calibre troops, assuming enough confidence and a passable degree of arms and skill. The individual tribal warrior may well have been outmatched by his better-trained Celtic opponent, but there was a lot of the tribesmen - certainly a deeper pool than of the Celtic specialists - and mutual support and cohesion, the raison d'êtres of the shieldwall, very much make a battlefield formation unit more than the sum of its parts.

    It is also entirely possible that they lucked out in terms of leaders. A sufficiently capable commander could regularly win battles that lesser leaders would almost certainly have lost, and in the right circumstances tear an empire apart. Given the issues the Celts had with their fighting manpower pool I doubt if it would have taken too many bloody routs in the hands of a capable German war chief or few to leave them so weak that even if the original "great leaders" died off the balance of power would have been irrecovably skewed in favour of the encroaching Germans.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  6. #126

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Wow, I like that train of thought concerning tactics, Watchman, because ususally people argue how stupid barbarians were in comparison to Romans/Greeks, and although the shieldwall (described as phalanx by Caesar) was used, nobody really points out how effective and brilliant it was until medieval times when in fact it is along the lines of the best you can get, the legion and phalanx being the ultimate derivatives of a shieldwall... it's funny that in the Civil War even people still stood in lines- brilliant!

    *How's this idea guys... what if there were some better accessible +command or +morale traits for German family members, which would make their performance not a SURE thing, but dependable on the general and situation?
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 06-30-2007 at 23:48.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  7. #127
    Mister of the Universe!!! Member Caratacos's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Thanks Watchman, you said what I have been trying to say this whole time... but was unable to in such a succint and well articulated way. I completely agree with you here .

  8. #128

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    I must add that any argument that the Celts were better warriors because they had more time to devote to training doesn't exactly have support, because both had a warrior aristocracy... So neither (of them) had an advantage in quality or training, just real world factors like arms/armor. One might argue that Tacitus said so and so, but that is hardly proof... Tacitus may be the only source concerning the time, but he calls them "Germans" for Christ's sake, something that is a fact that they never called themselves unless it was to explain their identity to their retarded neighbors- that's evidence enough to say he's full of it... Distinct grave sites found with greater riches does not prove anything either, other than those noblemen had more wealth... it's just a simple fact that the lower classes do farming and grunt-work, and it's really doubtful that the upper classes would participate for personal fun. Cultures who have drastic changes in their infrastructure as proposed by an egalitarian-to-aristocracy switch would then have traces of that change and difference in their oral culture... there is no evidence of that concerning Germanic culture, in fact, the culture shows itself to be very solid and steady... the few linguistic changes which happen are in terms of kingship because of their unique curbing of that power, but otherwise... loan-words for trade from Romans, so we know they didn't have a money-market system... what else? they borrow the word for a byrnie mailcoat...
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-02-2007 at 05:07.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  9. #129

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Frankly, it is quite likely that all other things being equal a random member of the Celtic warrior class was a better fighter than the equally random German tribesman. This is suggested already by the simple difference in the time both could dedicate to combat training (given that both got engaged in small-scale raids on a regular basis) - the difference between a specialist and a part-timer.
    I agree with this statement, barring wars and things being abnormal. The elite Celts and Germans would be better for the reasons you gave. The difference for the average German tribesman is from what I understand is he trained but he may not have had the practical experience of training in groups nor real experience in raids.Things of course change when it comes to wars or major raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    My bet is that where the Germans were superior (eventually anyway) was tactics, "what the weak use to overcome the strong" as it's also been described. The shieldwall, which they appear to have been very fond of but which was apparently rather rare among the Celts, is basically the formation for multiplying the fighting power of not-so-well-armed or -trained troops; part-time militias fighting in such fashion regularly proved themselves the match of even quite high-calibre troops, assuming enough confidence and a passable degree of arms and skill. The individual tribal warrior may well have been outmatched by his better-trained Celtic opponent, but there was a lot of the tribesmen - certainly a deeper pool than of the Celtic specialists - and mutual support and cohesion, the raison d'êtres of the shieldwall, very much make a battlefield formation unit more than the sum of its parts.

    It is also entirely possible that they lucked out in terms of leaders. A sufficiently capable commander could regularly win battles that lesser leaders would almost certainly have lost, and in the right circumstances tear an empire apart. Given the issues the Celts had with their fighting manpower pool I doubt if it would have taken too many bloody routs in the hands of a capable German war chief or few to leave them so weak that even if the original "great leaders" died off the balance of power would have been irrecovably skewed in favour of the encroaching Germans.
    These are as usual, logical statements. Here is something to back up your hunch. I have to paraphrase Caesar here but when he was addressing his troops he talked about how sneaky the Germans were and thats why they beat the Celts. Also Caesar did call Ariovistus a good leader and from what I read he was.
    Now here are the reasons why I don't think it was just tactics or good leadership. The Celts were very well versed in battle field formations as represented at Telemon, Alesia and others. Caesar talks of pinning Celt shields together with pilum just before they clash with the Romans. So they did have close formation tactics.
    The Battle of Magetobriga in which the Aedui were to come to an end was a pitched battle. It was the 15000 German merceniaries that won the battle. From here the Germans go on to subjugate the Sequani.
    When Caesar talks of the Germans being sneaky its because of the morale of Caesars troops. Allot of Caesars junior officers were getting worried at the tales the Celts were saying of the Germans. Caesar had to down play the Germans as well as up lift his own men for morale's sake. At the Battle of Magetobriga Ariovistus was in charge of his own men but to my knowledge not the leader of the battle.
    The Celts told tales of these well trained savage men who were superior to all (that is before Caesar came though) in arms. The Celts and the Romans feared the Germans as it is mentioned many times. You also have to take into consideration Caesars comments like what he said of the German cavalry and also his 3000 German foot soldiers used against Pompey. Caesar talks of the valor and ferocity of the German troops.
    Take a look at some of the battles between the Germans and the Celts. The Germans destroyed the Menapii, The 800 cavalry already talked about routing the 5000 Roman/Celtic cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caratacos
    Thanks Watchman, you said what I have been trying to say this whole time... but was unable to in such a succint and well articulated way. I completely agree with you here
    I think your selling yourself short. I for one understood what you were saying and for the most part agreed with you. I just think the soldiers do make more of a difference then you give them credit for. I really think Caesar would have failed if he didnt have the quality of troops he had with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    I must add that any argument that the Celts were better warriors because they had more time to devote to training doesn't exactly have support, because both had a warrior aristocracy... So neither (of them) had an advantage in quality or training, just real world factors like arms/armor.
    I agree with you here except for the quality of the warriors. I believe the German warrior to be superior. Why do I believe this, because allot of the ancient authors and people who lived and saw these things said so, including the Celts themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    One might argue that Tacitus said so and so, but that is hardly proof... Tacitus may be the only source concerning the time, but he calls them "Germans" for Christ's sake, something that is a fact that they never called themselves unless it was to explain their identity to their retarded neighbors- that's evidence enough to say he's full of it... Distinct grave sites found with greater riches does not prove anything either, other than those noblemen had more wealth... it's just a simple fact that the lower classes do farming and grunt-work, and it's really doubtful that the upper classes would participate for personal fun.
    I wouldn't dismiss any of the ancient authors out of hand for misunderstandings they had. You are correct though that the only time the Germans of this period referred to themselves as Germans instead of their tribal names was for the understanding of the Romans and others.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Why is it that allot of you on these forums think that the Celts should be as powerful as they are in respect to units? Why is it ok to have Celt elite units higher then there German counter parts not to mention the Romans!

  11. #131
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    The differences between the Celt and Sweboz elites stem primarily from the level of equipement carried, which obviously is purely a factor of resources and as such has nothing to do with the warriors themselves. Complaining about that is roughly akin to complaining about the Roman heavy infantry being better armoured than most "barbarian" equivalents.

    Didn't we already go this over once, anyway ?

    As for the Romans, please keep in mind the differences in the whole underlying military philosophy. The whole point of the Celtic system was the creation of mighty warrior-heroes; anyone who reached the elite status was quaranteed to be one hard case indeed. The Romans, conversely, were soldiers in the modern sense; their whole way of war was based on iron discipline, seamless teamwork and well-practised drill. The actual skill of the individual soldier was somewhat secondary to his "moral fibre", ability to carry out orders posthaste and operate as part of his unit. A veteran or elite soldier produced by such system is not so much a better warrior as that much better a cog in the war machine - better able to carry out his orders and hold his nerve in the face of often quite extreme adversity.

    Moreover, looking at the stats I don't really see where the Roman high-end infantry - Antesigniani, Evocatae, Praetorians (who incidentally are AFAIK statted a bit wrong, and should have a bit more armour) - are supposed to be meaningfully inferior to their Celtic peers. Anything but. They're more or less matched in stats actually, and both the Evocatae and Praetorians come in meaningfully larger units (base size 50) than the high-end Celtic units while the Antesigniani (who are not actually line troops anyway) have equal numbers. And man for man the Romans are cheaper. Oh, the 0.225 lethality of the Celtic longswords certainly beats the 0.13 of the gladius, but I'd imagine the nasty AP pila more than compensated.
    Last edited by Watchman; 07-02-2007 at 08:55.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  12. #132
    Mister of the Universe!!! Member Caratacos's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    These are as usual, logical statements. Here is something to back up your hunch. I have to paraphrase Caesar here but when he was addressing his troops he talked about how sneaky the Germans were and thats why they beat the Celts. Also Caesar did call Ariovistus a good leader and from what I read he was.
    Now here are the reasons why I don't think it was just tactics or good leadership. The Celts were very well versed in battle field formations as represented at Telemon, Alesia and others. Caesar talks of pinning Celt shields together with pilum just before they clash with the Romans. So they did have close formation tactics.
    The Battle of Magetobriga in which the Aedui were to come to an end was a pitched battle. It was the 15000 German merceniaries that won the battle. From here the Germans go on to subjugate the Sequani.
    When Caesar talks of the Germans being sneaky its because of the morale of Caesars troops. Allot of Caesars junior officers were getting worried at the tales the Celts were saying of the Germans. Caesar had to down play the Germans as well as up lift his own men for morale's sake. At the Battle of Magetobriga Ariovistus was in charge of his own men but to my knowledge not the leader of the battle.
    The Celts told tales of these well trained savage men who were superior to all (that is before Caesar came though) in arms. The Celts and the Romans feared the Germans as it is mentioned many times. You also have to take into consideration Caesars comments like what he said of the German cavalry and also his 3000 German foot soldiers used against Pompey. Caesar talks of the valor and ferocity of the German troops.
    Take a look at some of the battles between the Germans and the Celts. The Germans destroyed the Menapii, The 800 cavalry already talked about routing the 5000 Roman/Celtic cavalry.
    This all makes complete sense. The Gallic armies were no stranger to battlefield tactics or manuovers-- which at no point does Watchman deny. Also it does not contradict Watchman's argument-- that the Germans used superiour tactics (possibly even an innovation made and used by Ariovistus himself--? my idea) and that it was this fact that contributed considerably to their victories. Among other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    I agree with you here except for the quality of the warriors. I believe the German warrior to be superior. Why do I believe this, because allot of the ancient authors and people who lived and saw these things said so, including the Celts themselves.
    Well if the attribute of "sneakiness" can be used for propagandic purposes could not the attribute of "martial prowess" be used in the same way? To explain defeats such as that in A.D 9...? As did those Gauls who were defeated by Ariovistus and co. You have selected the meanings that best suit your argument here... which is still valid, but noted.

    Clearly the Germans were capable warriors but in no ancient source have I specifically read that "German warriors are superior to Celtic warriors". And even then I'd seriously question their reasoning.

    But this argument does seem to be going around in circles... perhaps we should agree to disagree?

    Either way I think that the stats will stay the same unless by some finding of new evidence... which is... unlikely.

    Also I'd just like to add that it has been a very informative and enjoyable discussion
    Last edited by Caratacos; 07-02-2007 at 11:58.

  13. #133
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Heck, the German tactical formations weren't even necessarily inherently superior to the Celtic ones. Put this way, the Germanic tribal-levy spearmen may well have fought in shieldwalls because they had to in order to compensate for their relatively poor equipement and training, particularly against well-equipped and -trained opponents like the Romans and the Celtic warrior class, whereas the better-trained and more confident Celtic longswordmen could afford - and for that matter probably needed - to fight in more open order. Of course the Celts had their share of spearmen better suited for close-packed ranks and the Germans their mobile loose-order shock infantry as well...

    Their warlords may just have eventually worked out the best ways to get the most out of the troops at their disposal, to which the at that point rather frazzled Celts were not able to respond in time.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  14. #134

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    Well if we increased the morale/training of German units it would have to be higher end units, since it's ridiculous for any levy/low class to be very good against professional warriors, and the cost would increase tremendously, because that's how the system works... so i don't think that's a solution.... on the other hand, if we pick some units to make more elite since the Harii unit has been taken away as a region-wide elite unit, that might be much more do-able and realistic...

    yes, a Brihentin reskin is something I plan on having implemented as a post-reform expensive companion cavalry. At the moment there is no way to get another cavalry unless we can figure out another faction's model we can reskin. Anybody know of any other factions who have Germanic-looking at all cavalry?
    What becomes quite clear about the Roman accounts of the Germans is that though they often lacked the resources to produce the equipment that their enemies could afford, they made up for in inginuity and tactics, and that a dence shield wall and phalanx, as well as somewhat bold and unconventional anti cavalry measures, night raids and long speared cavalry charges were definitely things these people were use to implimenting in battle.

    Just one quick question though, why dont gastiz and what not have helmets?

  15. #135
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Maybe they think it unmanly to wear one ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  16. #136

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Maybe they think it unmanly to wear one ?
    I can see the arguments for them wanting to show their lovely hair, but they don't really have long hair.

    Why go to all the effort of having that lush equipment and not at least wear a basic helmet?

  17. #137
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Why do the Gaesatae go nekkid ? Maybe they want to show their disdain of the enemy's weapons or something. I've read Persian warrior nobles did that at one point too.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  18. #138

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Why do the Gaesatae go nekkid ? Maybe they want to show their disdain of the enemy's weapons or something. I've read Persian warrior nobles did that at one point too.
    Because a flapping penis flying towards you attached to a muscle man with a sword and shield is a bit more intimidating than some guy whos armed to the teeth with good chain mail and a sturdy sheild, overarmed fighting spear and well made sword whos wearing trousers boots and a cape, yet with no helmet to protect his head.

    Also the Gastiz seem to be equipped better because they have managed to get gear from their conquests. I don't see why a logical professional fighting man wouldnt sooner or later realize that the head is quite importent if they want to survive.

  19. #139

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    From what I have read though in general, it seems that the average German was a bit tougher and probably much more used to fighting in dence formation than the lower end Celtic warrior.

    I think where the Celts however outdid the Germans was in their arms and armor and they were probably wealthier in general, and though wealth doesn't obviously produce good results, it can be helpful for encouraging men to train on a regular basis.

  20. #140
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Hey, don't ask me to understand the often somewhat crackpot thinking of ancient warrior elites. They more often than not had a seriously strange brew of odd magical and symbolic stuff going, not rarely with pure machismo thrown in. The results could be some rather counterintuitive practices.

    I'm just offering guesses as to possible explanations. Didn't the Dacians also often fight bareheaded to demonstrate their bravery and scorn of death to the gods ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  21. #141

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Hey, don't ask me to understand the often somewhat crackpot thinking of ancient warrior elites. They more often than not had a seriously strange brew of odd magical and symbolic stuff going, not rarely with pure machismo thrown in. The results could be some rather counterintuitive practices.

    I'm just offering guesses as to possible explanations. Didn't the Dacians also often fight bareheaded to demonstrate their bravery and scorn of death to the gods ?
    Well I think in the case of the Germanic unit im talking about it would be more a question of why the model designer chose not to give them helmets. They are one of my favorite units by the way.

    A lack of armor can be for mobility it can also say that you're not afraid, it can also obviously have religious significance, it can also be to simply make your fellow soldiers recognize you on the battlefield, sort off like medieval heraldry. Many german helmets had openings in them to allow their hair to hang through.

    I just think the more professional and experienced a warrior becomes, the more economic they become and practical they become, There are Celtic units such as the solduri that exhibbit this, better armor, less likely to run headlong into a fight, they don't have much to prove, they are already super elites.

  22. #142

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    helms are almost useless and much more valuable because of their rarity compared to a mailshirt because of their relatively useless aspect... think about it, if you get hit in the head with a sword, you're dead with a helm or not... THUS if any Germanic warrior had resources it was spent on body protection which is a much larger target and has a greater chance of survival from a blow. by this logic they did not need, want, or use helms, which makes more sense than any mass-production of a dumb helmet which gets in your way and does nothing, it was a total waste of metal... those who DID have nice metal helms among the Germanics were truly important men, this is the origin of the Germanic crown.

    the only reason other cultures use helms is their excess of wealth, not because they work... even today the only reason helmets work is because of the invention of shrapnel-like warfare... a classic example is Star Wars, where the storm troopers run around in full armor but still die by the simplest pistol shot, so what is the point in wearing armor? there isn't any.... mailshirts can block arrows easily though, so they can be quite valuable in that respect, but an arrow can still go into your eye with a helm.

    now, the Reformed Hearth-troop should have helms because they have greater access to resources, but otherwise only leaders would have them and highly important ones at that.

    words such as Old English cynehelm, Old High German chuninchelm "crown" give us insight into this, as well as Tacitus' account "a few have a breastplate, one or two at most a metal helmet," as well as the persisence of this tradition for quite some time, as seen in illustrations of the Utrecht Psalter, where groups of warriors are without helm and leaders are generally with helm.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-03-2007 at 22:38.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  23. #143
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Uh - helmets were usually the first pieces of defensive gear warriors made a point of aquiring after a shield you know. They cost pennies compared to body armour. People were generally aware of the importance of the old brainbox, and the skull only goes so far for protecting the squishy innards. A decent helmet was quite often literally the difference between life and death, as it deflected or slowed down stuff that would otherwise have ventilated your cranium, all the more so as due to considerations of visibility the degree to which you could defend the noggin with a shield was somewhat restricted.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  24. #144

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    uh, only by weak warriors... i don't see how you can defend the ability of a helm to block any decently perfomed blow... like plenty of policemen will tell you they'd rather have a helmet than a kevlar vest? brainbox aside, mathmatical probability was known through common sense
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-03-2007 at 23:02.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  25. #145
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    A rounded, smooth, padded metal shell stops and deflects a whole lot thank you very much. And way more than your poor skull by its lonesome certainly. Not the really hardcore stuff - direct hits from heavy axes and maces for example - of course, but keeps your noggin intact against lighter weapons, glancing hits, arrows etc. by far better than nothing.

    And that's just simple light "skull caps". Once the armourers get creative you find stuff like the later-end Roman helmets, Medieval "great bascinets" (a larger helm worn over a smaller one), visored helmets with optional extra armour plates and cleverly articulated "folding" face defenses... and that just in the European context.

    Modern military gear has no bearing on the issue. Just as a little reminder tempered steel armour was still a valid defense against rifles in 1870.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  26. #146

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    modern military gear as i describe has nothing to do with it, its the idea of common sense... the reason policemen use vests is the larger area/target, it's mathmatics, probability, common sense... it's true that helmets are cheaper, but body armor would still be preferred by any warrior... another factor is the fact that mailshirts can be reused if damaged, so they can be taken off of the battlefield, where early helmets weren't exactly "patch"-able... i am no metalsmith, but it would have to be reworked right, especially more so than rings on mail?

    heres some evidence for you:
    "hæfd him on earme eorla þrītig hildegeatwa, þā hē tō holme stāg" (Beowulf 2361-2362, Mitchell & Robinson 1998),
    which I translate "had with him in arm the battlegear of thirty noblemen, when he went into the sea" which is in reference to a failed sea-raid on Friesland (Netherlands) where Beowulf's king Hygelāc is killed in battle and he retreats with booty in hand... the term "battlegear" in this context (as well as in ON gerð, OHG garawida) is meant to imply a mailshirt, a rather large/thick stack there is no mention of helms, because even a warrior who can carry 30 mailshirts can't possibly swim with helmets that don't compact/ fold together but more importantly, the tradition was that the mailshirt was more important and more easily plunderable

    another thing is that a true warrior would rather have a sword than a helmet for the amount of resources involved... the helmet was in wide use among cultures who had extra resources or had such crappy body armor that it was considered of comparable value
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-04-2007 at 02:14.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  27. #147
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    That is certainly not an universal preference. I've got plenty of examples of people going deliberately for helmets instead of metal armour, though you are right in the sidearm. Most do prefer a sword instead of a helmet, though you can still find some examples that are an exception to that general rule.



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  28. #148

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    helms are almost useless and much more valuable because of their rarity compared to a mailshirt because of their relatively useless aspect... think about it, if you get hit in the head with a sword, you're dead with a helm or not...
    I don't agree. Some weapons would be better suited for this objective than others, but I think it's safe to say that if helmets didn't protect peoples heads at least to a fairly high extent, nobody would bother wearing them. Now axes I can understand, the falx I can understand but general sword blows? no, most likely any decently made helmet will protect your head from the glance or strike of a sword blow, Besides, we know for a fact that some Germans wore them and they most definitely started wearing them more and more as soon as they got access to more resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    THUS if any Germanic warrior had resources it was spent on body protection which is a much larger target and has a greater chance of survival from a blow. by this logic they did not need, want, or use helms, which makes more sense than any mass-production of a dumb helmet which gets in your way and does nothing, it was a total waste of metal... those who DID have nice metal helms among the Germanics were truly important men, this is the origin of the Germanic crown.
    Absolutely, as it said in the Germanic warrior, but it also says that it could withstand glances from swords. But lets face it, sooner or later one will realize that a helmet is vital because the human skull just isn't that sturdy on its own. Tacitus points out that they wore both leather caps and helmets when they had the chance, the prominent Germanic warriors undoubtably wore helmets, probably more for a symbolic factor than a defencive factor but when it comes to a heavily armed and equipped Germanic unit, why not wear helmets? they had the money and resources to have them and we know that during the Migration Period the Germans did get access to more materials and undoubtably did start producing more and more in terms of arms and armor, including helmets.

    I can understand the importence of identity on the battlefield and how men being men obviously enjoy having their lovely long hair seen to all but really, helmets are good and any seasoned warrior Germanic or not would sooner or later realize the value of the helmet.

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    the only reason other cultures use helms is their excess of wealth, not because they work... even today the only reason helmets work is because of the invention of shrapnel-like warfare... a classic example is Star Wars, where the storm troopers run around in full armor but still die by the simplest pistol shot, so what is the point in wearing armor? there isn't any.... mailshirts can block arrows easily though, so they can be quite valuable in that respect, but an arrow can still go into your eye with a helm.
    Yeah but you can still get hit in the neck wearing mailshirts, so why wear mailshirts? obviously theres always room for danger in most mass produced armor and this really didn't ever stop being a problem until full plate armored soldiers started to show up where really the only major defence against them was the gun, the warhammer, the club and the crossbow to some extent, obviously a helmet being a helmet will add yet another layer of protection to your skull. Theres enough re enactment guys out there that have had swords glance off their helmets to know that the helmet obviously works.


    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    now, the Reformed Hearth-troop should have helms because they have greater access to resources, but otherwise only leaders would have them and highly important ones at that.
    I totally understand the correlation between lack of helmets of the Germans and lack of resources, but in the case of the Gastiz, they have resources, why not wear a helmet?


    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
    words such as Old English cynehelm, Old High German chuninchelm "crown" give us insight into this, as well as Tacitus' account "a few have a breastplate, one or two at most a metal helmet," as well as the persisence of this tradition for quite some time, as seen in illustrations of the Utrecht Psalter, where groups of warriors are without helm and leaders are generally with helm.
    Yes, and the reasons for this are a combination of factors such as warrior status and resources within the Germanic territories, what I've always admired about the Germanic people was that they made do with really what they had and still gave the premiere civilizations a run for their money, heck they eventually beat them, but I really don't agree that a helmet is essentially a useless piece of equipment and really don't see why Gastiz being soldiers for hire by trade who have had access to good equipment, wouldn't just end up wearing a helmet.

  29. #149

    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    WHAT?! Come on, of course men who can lift 30 mailshirts and carry them, swimming from the Netherlands to Sweden is a universal... can't everyone do that?

    Watchman, i appreciate your detailed elaboration of the advantages of a helm.... even if i don't agree with their actual effectiveness against a large degree of force

    well of course i agree that helms were used by Germanic warriors, because there is no reason NOT to take advantage of something, but it wasn't a high priority compared to swords and mailshirts... my extreme opinion is to reinforce that it's not as useful as you guys keep trying to say they are... i'm sorry it's simply wrong to say that any helm of 270BC can save someone's life from a good sword to the head... where is the logic in that? come on... that's just silly... are we speaking of lame-ass swords or what? a good sword is a good sword and it's whole purpose is that it can go through mail even, nonetheless a dinky 270BC helm.... yes glancing blows would be deflected and a helm is better than nothing, of course, but helmets are as useful as bracers and leg armor, which is NOT very useful...

    Handsome, your point was that "if they didn't protect, then nobody would wear them" and that is RIGHT... just because "civilized" men wore helmets that doesn't justify their use... and just because "barbarians" didn't wear them that doesn't mean they aren't effective, but if we use common sense and think about how much force is in a sword blow and the fact that the sword is sharp, i think it's safe to say that the helm might as well not be there... why would anybody use swords unless they worked? glancing blows don't even necessarily kill unarmored men- that's the definition of the term... by increasing the probability of survival through extra pieces of armor, a warrior does his job which is kill more by not dying and living to kill more, but that doesn't change the grim reality of certain death if you're head gets hit by a decent weapon (as in not a crappy arrow which 'glances'). Like in modern times, the helmet is almost ONLY useful at protection from missles...

    the leather skullcap found on the Tollund Man, as Sarcasm loves to point out, and i love to hear mentioned, is a good example of how helms were used by Germanic tribes, but they certainly weren't considered important... it would be an extra... any Celtic helm in earlier times, and Roman helms in later times would have been used if found or acquired intact... so ACTUALLY that is a good argument for why mailshirts were actually developed and made locally by Germanics even if borrowed technology because otherwise there should be more helms and there isn't...

    of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but that's why helms are portrayed the way they are with the Germanics..... Sarcasm and I agree actually that there should be more leather skullcaps, but i REALLY don't want to see another weird red cap... that makes me want to kill myself it's so ridiculous and the sad thing is that nobody wants it in the game and yet it's been in the build for over a year or more without anybody taking it out so i would prefer NOTHING as opposed to Attack of the Shriners
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 07-04-2007 at 06:08.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  30. #150
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    The Celts wore helmets. And while they were certainly more 'civilized' than contemporary Germans, they're normally ranked as "barbarians" by the same observers.

    Anyway, swords are kinda sucky at cutting through metal. Mail stops most blades pretty much cold, although heavy blows may still impart enough blunt trauma to make that a cold comfort (the heavy Medieval "mail-killer" war swords worked on this principle AFAIK; probably falchions too). The pointy stuff, and "mass" weapons like axes and maces, does way better. Solid angled metal surfaces are worse - plate armour, remember ? A good helmet is essentially plate spot protection for the head, and will tend to bounce most hits - and the solid ones will still lose about all their energy cutting and deforming the metal, probably never reaching the head itself in the first place nevermind now through the ubiquitous padding (layered textile and such being also pretty good a stopping blades, and kinetic energy too).

    Heavy blows from heavy weapons to the head are so dangerous not so much because they were actually necessarily all that better at actually getting through the helmet, but because their sheer kinetic energy can cause concussions right through it and because the spine isn't all that strong at the neck. Dying of a broken neck despite the helmet having by and large stopped the blow sort of sucks.

    Also, your assessement of the supposed uselessness of helmets against about anything but missiles is most definitely not supported by either the archeological or written record, nor practical experiments made on the subject.

    And as mentioned, helmets are ultimately very cheap compared to metal body armour. Just about any decently equipped warrior could in most times afford one, but things like long swords and body armour are an entirely different story. The bit about Beowulf clearly misses this. Mail took a very long time to make and was thus very expensive; ergo, it was also very valuable, "the battlegear of noblemen", and being also very useful would obviously be prioritized quite highly for looting. Heck, victorious armies normally made a point of diligently stripping dead foes of their armour and recycling the stuff is possible - often the only way many warriors could get their hands of decent armour anyway. The Bayeux Tapestry casually presents few such scenes. And the only reason the grave-pits of Visby yielded such useful amounts of period armour is the fact the victors left the field in pursuit in the immediate aftermath of the battle, and when they returned few days later the bodies were no more in a lootable condition due to the summer heat...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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