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Thread: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

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    Default Re: Sweboz (Germans) slightly underpowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    For someone who'd read his Sidnell, you seem to quite actively ignore the man's repeated discussions on the importance of momentum, speed and shock in the inherently highly volatile field of cavalry combat. Heck, Romans at least once appear to have been put pretty much the whole cataphract force of an Armenian army to flight just by hitting them suddenly in the flank with light infantry from a direction they thought was secure.

    Not to forget his talk about the victory in a horse fight tending to go to the side who last has fresh and uncommitted reserves - which is exactly what Caesar usually used his Germans as. The Gauls would take the initial brunt of the fighting, and the Germans would be thrown in once the moment was judged suitable to tip the balance and put the engaged enemy cavalry to flight.
    We will skip Ariovistus who did well against the Romans and go with the Usipetes and Tencteri.

    Goldsworthy “Caesar”-The Germans had some 800 horsemen still guarding their encampment. Caesar had 5,000 cavalry, although if these were performing their duties as a patrolling and screening force properly, then they would not all have been concentrated in one place. Even so, the Gallic auxiliaries probably had a significant numerical advantage, and were mounted on larger horses than their opponents, which makes it all the more notable that the Germans quickly gained an advantage. In Caesar's account the Germans charged first, chasing away part of the Gallic cavalry, but were in turn met by their supports. Many of the Germans then dismounted to fight on foot-perhaps with the support of the picked infantrymen who regularly supported the horsemen of some Germanic tribes. The Gauls were routed and fled, spreading panic amongst a large part of the auxiliary and allied cavalry who galloped in terror back to the main force, which was probably several miles away.” pg.274

    Phillip Sidnell-"Warhorse"-"Although not more than eight hundred German horsemen were present, as soon as they caught sight of Caesar's cavalry they charged and 'soon threw them into disorder'-all five thousand of them. The Celts did not break immediately, 'but in their turn, made a stand' and a sharp fight ensued in which the Germans, 'overthrowing a great many of our men, put the rest to flight'. pg.230-231

    The Germans charged first then later in came more Gallic cavalry, no reserves and a pitched battle after the first charge.

    Caesars German mercenaries:

    Adrian Goldsworth-"Caesar:Life of a Colossus"-"On the following day the Gaulish cavalry attacked in three groups-one striking the head of the column and the others threatening the flanks. Caesar's cavalry were heavily outnumbered but he likewise divided them into three groups and moved up the infantry as close support whenever they were hard pressed. The legionaries could not catch the enemy horsemen, but they provided a solid block for their own horsemen to rally behind and re-form. In the end the Germans won the combat on the right, routing the warriors facing them and causing the rest to withdraw. pg.335

    The charge began with the Gauls but ended with the heavily outnumbered German cavalry defeating them. No reserves, no initial brunt excuse, simply the martial ability of the Germans defeated the more numerous Gauls.

    Phillip Sidnell-"Warhorse"-"It was the German cavalry, possibly with their own light infantry in support even though they are not mentioned, who made the breakthrough.
    At length the German horse gained the top of some rising ground on the right, dislodged some of the enemy, and chased them with heavy loss to a river where Vercingetorix's infantry was posted. At this the rest of his cavalry fled, afraid of being surrounded, and were cut down in numbers all over the field.pg. 234

    The Germans fought there way to the top and dislodged the Gauls, I don't recall if there was an initial charge(I figure there must have been) but they fought there way up to the top of the hill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Bet you the main reason he did it that way was because he regarded the hired Germans as more politically reliable than the Gauls.
    What about that Caesar considered the Aedui to be his closest allies even though they came real close to mutiny and also the Remi who stood by Caesar the whole time. The Cavalry Caesar had by the time he gained the Germans had been with him for 5 or 6 years.

    Speaking of Sidnell:
    Phillip Sidnell-"Warhorse"-One might expect that the combination of the long-famed Celtic prowess as mounted warriors with this new state-of-the-art military equipment (to which add spurs, superior ironwork in their weapons and armour and, at first, larger horses) would have proved unstoppable, yet it is the German cavalry who really stand out in Caesar's accounts and we are specifically told they did not have the advantage of saddles. Indeed, Caesar makes clear that the Germans positively scorned such aids as a sign of weakness:' In their eyes it is the height of effeminacy and shame to use a saddle, and they do not hesitate to engage the largest force of cavalry riding saddled horses, however small their own numbers may be'." pg.228

    As another reminder:
    Goldsworthy “Caesar”-"Throughout the Gallic campaigns German warriors consistently defeated their Gallic counterparts, each success adding to their fierce reputation". Pg.274

    Michael P. Speidel-"Riding for Caesar"-"Caesar threw his Germani into the fray-'some four hundred horsemen he had with him from the beginning'. the Gauls, unable to withstand their onslaught, broke and fled. Caesar's horse guard thus saved him from being trapped in certain defeat.
    Holding back reserves until the decisive moment, Caesar had won by tactical skill. It is nevertheless astonishing that only four hundred men made such a difference. They must have been the kind of men Caesar's own army feared, 'huge, unbelievably bold and expert fighters'."pg.12

    All 3 of these authors were impressed with the Germans! I wasn't ignoring what he was saying, I was simply agreeing with him.
    Last edited by Frostwulf; 09-23-2007 at 06:27.

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