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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    This comment piece, stridently anti-American though its undertone is, got me reflecting on an issue that I have always wondered about.

    I have always held the view that the "special relationship" lauded by many British Prime Ministers has been a sham. The US has always had her own agenda as the dominant superpower, and a compliant Britain has been useful but not integral to her foreign policy.

    The UK on the other hand, seems to have hung desperately onto the myth to avoid the reality that her future is European - in much the same way the Republic of Ireland allowed deValera to convince us for so many years it was all the Brit's fault we were poor.

    Mr Blair has been the apogee of this misguided nonsense and has caused immeasurable damage to the UK's standing in foreign affairs.

    Is it time for the new Prime Minister to snap the apron strings - not rudely, but with a sense of independence? Surely M Sarkozy at the Elysee brings a prime opportunity to make new alliances? To play on the big stage of creating a strong Europe, rather than an aspiration to be a vassal state with less influence that Rhode Island?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Matthew Norman: The special relationship is a sad joke

    In return for destroying himself by joining the Iraq invasion, Mr Blair has received less than nothing
    Published: 08 June 2007


    To the last, he sustains the fantasy with a crazed fortitude verging on the heroic. Admittedly, Tony Blair has downgraded his bullishness day by day, his early week certainty gradually giving way to cautious optimism that he will, by the end of the G8 summit, have persuaded George Bush to make a meaningful commitment to reduce US carbon emissions. Yet still, at the eleventh hour and 59th minute of his period in office, with the removal vans literally outside No 10, he continues chirpily to insist that he has real leverage with the President of the United States.

    That Mr Bush has no intention of making such a commitment, and that the entire world understands this, is irrelevant. After all, Mr Blair understands it better than anyone, because however delusional we may think him, he is neither an imbecile nor an amnesiac. He knows that the US refusal to enter a binding agreement without China is a de facto veto on specific targets to cut emissions, since China is no more prepared to subdue its economic growth than America.

    The conceit that the Big Oil front man gives a toss about climate change isn't worth bothering with. Nor will Mr Blair have forgotten the results of all previous efforts to cajole Mr Bush into doing the right thing, most notably regarding a more even-handed approach to the Palestinians. In return for destroying himself by joining the invasion of Iraq, Mr Blair has received less than nothing. He couldn't even dissuade the President from imposing damaging steel tariffs on the EU.

    Yet the charade that the British PM has serious influence in Washington must be sustained in the interest of the "special relationship", even now, when the salient points of this phantasmal entity's history have become so familiar that they feel like old, and rather tedious, friends.

    Even before Churchill coined the phrase in 1946, the US had struck a hard bargain in return for lend-lease, and sent battleships to Cape Town to collect British gold in part settlement of the debt. This brutal, almost Mafiosi expression of power set the tone for all that followed. As Andrew Marr recounted in his BBC2 series, when the summary withdrawal of American aid propelled Britain towards post-war bankruptcy, Attlee sent Milton Friedman to Washington to beg an interest-free loan of $8bn. All the US gave him was $4bn, with interest. We made the last repayment only late last year.

    So it went on. While Germany and Japan paid for their aggression with booming economies, Britain, economically ravaged by two world wars, had no choice but to yield sovereignty, allowing US air bases on its soil and nuclear submarines in its waters, becoming a kind of client kingdom in return for sporadic and costly US economic assistance.

    The first attempt at major independent military action ended the moment Eisenhower expressed his understandable fury over Suez. When the next came, Reagan remained studiedly neutral in public over the Falklands. In between, the absolute reliance on US support to keep sterling from collapsing prevented Harold Wilson condemning the Vietnam war, to the dismay of naïve colleagues who affected not to appreciate what an epic achievement it was to avoid sending British troops.

    As the senior State Department adviser, Kendall Myers, pointed out a few months ago, there never was a special relationship ("or at least not one we noticed"), and the myth has now completed its mutation into a sad joke. Soon after Britain signed a wilfully unequal extradition treaty that saw us handing over the NatWest Three without a shred of prima facie evidence of any crime, the Pentagon contemptuously disdained the inquests into the friendly fire killing of Lance-Corporal Matty Hull, threatening to prosecute papers that published transcripts of the cockpit recordings it had to hand over.

    So much for the potted history of the "special relationship", but what of its future? With opinion polls capturing the British public's fatigue at the obeisance (64 per cent believe our future lies more with Europe, according to Populus, and an almost identical number want Anglo-American ties loosened), it seems expedient for Gordon Brown to waste no time easing Downing Street out from "right up the White House's arse", to borrow the navigational instruction to Christopher Meyer when he became Ambassador in Washington.

    Obviously this needn't involve re-enacting the Love Actually scene where Hugh Grant tells the President to bugger off, pleasing as that would be, let alone the subplot of A Very British Coup, in which leftie PM Harry Perkins peremptorily tells the Americans to remove their air bases and finds alternative funding from the Kremlin.

    All it means is publicly acknowledging the realpolitik that Britain, far from close to bankruptcy any more, has nothing to gain from ingratiation, because the Americans have never given us a carrot for it, and they never will; and that national self-interest demands not supplication but the sort of candour and independence that may begin the arduous process of rebuilding Britain's reputation.

    Brown could easily send out a message within weeks of taking office. He could repeal that extradition treaty, and request the return of the Nat West Three pending hard evidence that they committed anything that constitutes a crime in Britain. He could pop into the Larry King studio en route to the Oval Office, and spell out the danger inherent in America failing to cut oil use in the vague hope that some miraculous technological advances arrives, like some hydrogen-based deus ex machina, to make everything all right. He could even ask the Americans to reverse their desecration of Grosvenor Square, where the concrete ramps, steel railings and Portakabins stretch ever further from the embassy building to paint a depressing, hideous portrait of arrogant colonial might.

    He'll do no such thing, of course. The idea is almost as fantastical as the special relationship itself because, apart from his innate caution, Gordon is at least as fervent an Atlantacist as Mr Blair, and seems no less convinced that Britain's play-acting at being a major power depends as much on subservience to Washington as the permanent seat on the UN Security Council and the shamefully profligate decision to upgrade Trident.

    So it won't be long before he's standing beneath the imperial eagle at one of those twin lectern White House press conferences, intoning: "Mr President, I'm sure you know how deeply we value the special relationship between our great nations." And when Mr Bush reciprocates the sentiment, his valiant fight to suppress the scornful Frat Boy smirk will be all the carefully nuanced commentary this outmoded ritual strictly demands.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    I think your veiw is a rather pro European one. If the UK decides they like there relationship with the US more, why should they join a union that is going to suck up all there money and send it east. I would also like to point out many Americans veiw the UK as sort of a big brother and if you asked any American on the street who there favorite and best ally was they'd say Britian (okay they would say England but thats for another thread ) As of right now keeping there relation with America is allot beter than being pushed around by France and Germany
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    I think your veiw is a rather pro European one. If the UK decides they like there relationship with the US more, why should they join a union that is going to suck up all there money and send it east. I would also like to point out many Americans veiw the UK as sort of a big brother and if you asked any American on the street who there favorite and best ally was they'd say Britian (okay they would say England but thats for another thread ) As of right now keeping there relation with America is allot beter than being pushed around by France and Germany
    We can hold our ground in a dispute with France and Germany. We can't do so in any dispute with America, therefore the most we can hope for is that Big Boy will listen to our advice, indebted to the unquestioning service that we have offered. This hasn't been the case during the Bush administration, which has taken all we have given and given nothing in return.

    We're starting to realise that, despite the closeness of our mentalities, when it comes to the fundamentals of power politics, America will never be obliged to take our line. And since America's cultivation of its real "special relationship", with Israel, is directly detrimental to our interests, we might as well stop deluding ourselves that we have any influence over Washington, and start finding a new playground to play in.

    The EU has considerable influence, sufficient to help pursue our interests, and we'll have considerable influence within the EU as one of the "Big Three". At the very least France and Germany would have to bargain with us, instead of riding straight over us as if we don't exist, as America has been doing for the past 7 years.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    What exactly would make Brittons satisfied that you had us 'brought to heel', as it were? How many issues would we need to take orders from you before you would accept that we truly want to be allies, mutual partners, with you?

    So far, I've heard your demands:

    -Do whatever you say on global warming
    -Abandon Israel to whatever fate its neighbors have in store for it
    -(From the article) give back all the money we received from lend/lease, with interest and add to that an appropriate Marshall Plan payout, again with interest.

    Is there anything I'm missing?
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Is there anything I'm missing?
    Yeah. Your footballs rubbish s well.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Just another case of jealousy. Nothing to see here folks just move on. The main gripe seems to be we are more powerful than you . therefore its a losing proposition for you since you would rather tell us what to do. And you did for a long time along with much of the rest of the world. As has been said most Americans still think of the British as our sort of relatives. If we took a poll on who our best allies are it would be Britain and Australia hands down The US wouldnt be what it is without you. It is reality that every nation takes care of itself first.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    What exactly would make Brittons satisfied that you had us 'brought to heel', as it were? How many issues would we need to take orders from you before you would accept that we truly want to be allies, mutual partners, with you?

    So far, I've heard your demands:

    -Do whatever you say on global warming
    -Abandon Israel to whatever fate its neighbors have in store for it
    -(From the article) give back all the money we received from lend/lease, with interest and add to that an appropriate Marshall Plan payout, again with interest.

    Is there anything I'm missing?
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation. If that's how America is going to think and act, we might as well look after number one and let America find whatever allies for whatever venture they might be currently planning. If the Clean Breakers want to enact their plan to make Israel-America the hegemonic power in the middle east, they should find the bulk of their strength from those two countries, without involving us.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation. If that's how America is going to think and act, we might as well look after number one and let America find whatever allies for whatever venture they might be currently planning. If the Clean Breakers want to enact their plan to make Israel-America the hegemonic power in the middle east, they should find the bulk of their strength from those two countries, without involving us.
    Hmm, the invasion of Iraq didn't serve UK's interest? Interesting assessment. You've been occupying Basra out of the goodness of your heart and desire to please us for the past 5 years? Oil field leases have nothing to do with it?

    Okay, right, listen to the man on the street in London regarding our foreign policy. Gotcha. Do me a favor... when you're out at the pubs this afternoon, find the guy you want as a spokesman to dictate our foreign policies for us, would you?

    I mean, your elected government was involved in the planning, execution and follow up in Iraq. So you must mean your average joe on the street should have the ability to determine our foregin policy.

    -So kill Israel and the Jews over there.
    -Send you gobs of cash: returning lend lease and extending the Marshall plan.
    -Pull out of Iraq. Create an advisory council of British citizens to determine future US foreign policy.
    -Shut off anything in the US that emits Carbon Dioxide, including the people.

    Anything else we can do for you, to prove our loyalty?
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation.
    That was Britains fault.

    It find the lack of responsibility by some UK members to be rather hypocritical. The UK made the decision to go to Iraq, and made the decision to -follow- the U.S. lead.

    Have you listened to Blairs speeches regarding Iraq? There almost identical to Bush in theories. That isnt the U.S. fault, thats Blair's fault, and his governments inability to take the course of action that seemingly the UK voter wanted.

    Nows your chance to take responsibility for your choices in government, and thier policies, make a change and move on.

    We wont stand in your way, because we cant the U.S. dosent have a great deal of leverage over the UK, at least not that I can tell.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    We're starting to realise that, despite the closeness of our mentalities, when it comes to the fundamentals of power politics, America will never be obliged to take our line. And since America's cultivation of its real "special relationship", with Israel, is directly detrimental to our interests, we might as well stop deluding ourselves that we have any influence over Washington, and start finding a new playground to play in.
    Here, Here !

    Once you guys elect officials who will steer you toward that end, can we discuss disolving the UN as well? I'm up for it, the antiquated alliances of the past coldwar era dont serve anyone much anymore, although somehow Nato ended up in Afghanistan.

    But once you pull the EU together we can dissolve Nato as well, I for one will be curious as to how the EU handles defense along with socialist programs.

    Please, have at it !
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    I always thought the special relationship was like a prostate exam , necessary for the recipient but leaving them feeling less then special ...
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Wow. Just plain wow. We engage in joint tactical maneuvers. The US and the UK share military secrets on an unprecedented level. We share technology, we have preferential trading relationships. And because you don't like George Bush, you think the UK should turn its back on the US?

    Sorry, BG, Pape, I thought the two of you were more rational than that.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Wow. Just plain wow. We engage in joint tactical maneuvers. The US and the UK share military secrets on an unprecedented level. We share technology, we have preferential trading relationships. And because you don't like George Bush, you think the UK should turn its back on the US?

    Sorry, BG, Pape, I thought the two of you were more rational than that.
    Come on Don, let them have thier anti U.S. banter, its to the point of reduntancy and amusing

    Yet again, more opinion pieces of why they should move on look for another direction in thier alliance structure, perhaps its best for all concerned to encourage them to do just that.

    I mean wasnt the EU Mr Churchill's idea in the first place? Lets see them have a go at getting it done, and we can post our newspapers op ed pieces that dress them in glory for thier efforts in that vein.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Sorry, BG, Pape, I thought the two of you were more rational than that.
    Have you seen the free trade agreement between Aus and the US? It really is a prostate exam, but with both hands on the shoulders. I'm sure some of the Aussie posters will be able to quote a few of the choicer parts.

    Little more seriously. The relationship is not exactly two way and sometimes the US can act more as a bullying big brother then a protective one. There are quiet a few issues that Australia could have done with a more active and outspoken US behind them... Zimbabwee has been a major issue lead by our PM for awhile now with not a lot of enthusiastic support, East Timor was a bit more then a token effort but not exactly enthusiastic (I think we will paint the ceiling beige moment)... and that did highlight at the time the lack of major two way effort... Australia is in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment...not many but for a small country with a relatively by capita small military we are doing ok... particulary when East Timor, Solomons and potentially Fiji are all added into the equation for local trouble spots needing troops and federal police... and then Indonesia/South East Asia with Tsunamis and other natural disasters... not to mention the Bali Bombings and a few other issues that are diverting our attention from commiting more to Iraq/Afghanistan. Also if the relationship was special and mutual we would expect more backup over Japan's whaling efforts... particlularly their bribing of small 3rd world countries to swing the vote.

    Britain hasn't exacly had a relationship of mutual respect either... after all if it existed I doubt that special relationship would have allowed fostering of the IRA in the US now would it.
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Have you seen the free trade agreement between Aus and the US? It really is a prostate exam, but with both hands on the shoulders. I'm sure some of the Aussie posters will be able to quote a few of the choicer parts.

    Little more seriously. The relationship is not exactly two way and sometimes the US can act more as a bullying big brother then a protective one. There are quiet a few issues that Australia could have done with a more active and outspoken US behind them... Zimbabwee has been a major issue lead by our PM for awhile now with not a lot of enthusiastic support, East Timor was a bit more then a token effort but not exactly enthusiastic (I think we will paint the ceiling beige moment)... and that did highlight at the time the lack of major two way effort... Australia is in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment...not many but for a small country with a relatively by capita small military we are doing ok... particulary when East Timor, Solomons and potentially Fiji are all added into the equation for local trouble spots needing troops and federal police... and then Indonesia/South East Asia with Tsunamis and other natural disasters... not to mention the Bali Bombings and a few other issues that are diverting our attention from commiting more to Iraq/Afghanistan. Also if the relationship was special and mutual we would expect more backup over Japan's whaling efforts... particlularly their bribing of small 3rd world countries to swing the vote.

    Britain hasn't exacly had a relationship of mutual respect either... after all if it existed I doubt that special relationship would have allowed fostering of the IRA in the US now would it.
    I'd say our current extradition treaty with the US is more like full blown anal rape than a prostrate exam, to be honest.

    Oh, and Don: Consider this; our Subs are our only nuclear detterent. No ICBMs.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    This notion is almost universally considered to be offensive in Britain. If you're ever on a visit don't even hint at it.
    You are offended we consider you to be the same as us, almost a father figure? I was joking about the another state part. That I can understand you being upset about.

    You missed the point, we gave you our armour, then you didn't give us your missile. It's one way and has been since before WWII.
    Your right we havent done a thing for you since WW2 . Its been a one way street. And you really believe this? We havent done anything for you in over 60 years but leech of you?

    Sorry? When we first took Basra we were walking around with our berets on whilst US soldiers were calling in Air Strikes.
    Im talking 60 years ago you ran out of steam not now.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Its not just Britain on the global warming thing--its the entire world. Our leaders have ignored the facts for years until just recently.
    Global warming is a theory not a fact and not even a very good theory . But again thats a topic for another thread.

    Why should we favor Israel over any other nation? They all have a right to exist. OH right, its the Israeli lobby in Washington.
    And you claim not to be a liberal. Yet here you are with this moral equivilency garbage. All nations dont have a right to exist or were we wrong to rid the world of Hitler? And there are lots of reasons to favor Israel over any number of countries.

    I imagine corralling them in with Britons proper isn't such a great error.
    Arent they both British subjects?
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    uh, we rid the world of Hitler, not of Germany.

    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?


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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?
    i don't want to put words in his mouth, but i suspect he may be talking about anthropogenic global warming. it is patently obvious that the world is warming as a result of entering an interglacial period, how much (if any) of that total warming results from humans is very much up for debate.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?
    i don't want to put words in his mouth, but i suspect he may be talking about anthropogenic global warming. it is patently obvious that the world is warming as a result of entering an interglacial period, how much (if any) of that total warming results from humans is very much up for debate.
    Sorry I missed that and thanks thats exactly what I meant.
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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Either way you want to eatn that piece of cake, it's the same.
    Britain does not want to be America's special little friend. You guys angry at that? You have treated Britain like crap fro about half a century, you reckon she wants more?

    There is no need to expand this argument into some Israel or Global warming clash, it's simply a "Britain got done by the US, and now wants to be rid of it" thread. Britain's future is with Europe, it's just that Murdoch has not yet caught on to it.

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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    i think Matthew Norman is a cretin, and i strongly disagree with the foolish notion that Britain's future lies more with the EU than the US.

  23. #23
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    uh, we rid the world of Hitler, not of Germany.
    And here I was thinking we split it in two. How many countries have come and gone? Now all of a sudden they all have the right to eternal life? Is that so of people as well?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  24. #24
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Well, this has got a little out of hand.

    First off, I should apologise for any feeling provoked among US posters that I was criticising their country. I think I have always made it clear that have the highest respect for the US and especially her people, but consider the present administration to be a carbuncle on the face of all that I admire in that country. I do not conflate the two.

    My post was actually directed at the British. It is there that the myth of a special relationship makes most impact. In my original post, I thought I made it clear that I understood that the US has many "special" relationships that wax and wane as political necessity demands. There is nothing wrong with this. In the UK however, the political class seems to think that they have a divine right to some sort of first-born hearing, a place at the top table.

    This attitude is, IMO, damaging to Britain's interests. As a someone who has great faith in the European project, and would like to see the UK take its proper place at the great table where they can influence matters, I see the misguided adherence to solely a trans-Atlantic relationship to the exclusion of progress on this former one, damaging. I think the US would be much happier to see Britain as a more integral player in Europe too, bringing a more anglo-centric viewpoint to bear. The two relationships are not mutually exclusive, but British politicians avoid European questions by clinging to the skirts of the US. As noted, I doubt that the US is happy with this state of affairs either.

    Re-reading my original post, I can see that this paragraph:

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Is it time for the new Prime Minister to snap the apron strings - not rudely, but with a sense of independence? Surely M Sarkozy at the Elysee brings a prime opportunity to make new alliances? To play on the big stage of creating a strong Europe, rather than an aspiration to be a vassal state with less influence that Rhode Island?
    can be interpreted as advocating cutting ties altogether. Not at all my intention. The apron-strings metaphor is supposed to illustrate a step out of dependence, into a properly adult relationship. But the infantile nature of the relationship at present is not the fault of the US, but of successive British Prime Ministers.

    The article (which I highlighted as an opinion piece with strong anti-American undertones, not as my personal view) illustrated rather well the childish hurt that is felt in some circles that there has been no "payback" for loyalty. This is as foolish for critics of Tony Blair as for the PM himself.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

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