Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 129

Thread: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    This comment piece, stridently anti-American though its undertone is, got me reflecting on an issue that I have always wondered about.

    I have always held the view that the "special relationship" lauded by many British Prime Ministers has been a sham. The US has always had her own agenda as the dominant superpower, and a compliant Britain has been useful but not integral to her foreign policy.

    The UK on the other hand, seems to have hung desperately onto the myth to avoid the reality that her future is European - in much the same way the Republic of Ireland allowed deValera to convince us for so many years it was all the Brit's fault we were poor.

    Mr Blair has been the apogee of this misguided nonsense and has caused immeasurable damage to the UK's standing in foreign affairs.

    Is it time for the new Prime Minister to snap the apron strings - not rudely, but with a sense of independence? Surely M Sarkozy at the Elysee brings a prime opportunity to make new alliances? To play on the big stage of creating a strong Europe, rather than an aspiration to be a vassal state with less influence that Rhode Island?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Matthew Norman: The special relationship is a sad joke

    In return for destroying himself by joining the Iraq invasion, Mr Blair has received less than nothing
    Published: 08 June 2007


    To the last, he sustains the fantasy with a crazed fortitude verging on the heroic. Admittedly, Tony Blair has downgraded his bullishness day by day, his early week certainty gradually giving way to cautious optimism that he will, by the end of the G8 summit, have persuaded George Bush to make a meaningful commitment to reduce US carbon emissions. Yet still, at the eleventh hour and 59th minute of his period in office, with the removal vans literally outside No 10, he continues chirpily to insist that he has real leverage with the President of the United States.

    That Mr Bush has no intention of making such a commitment, and that the entire world understands this, is irrelevant. After all, Mr Blair understands it better than anyone, because however delusional we may think him, he is neither an imbecile nor an amnesiac. He knows that the US refusal to enter a binding agreement without China is a de facto veto on specific targets to cut emissions, since China is no more prepared to subdue its economic growth than America.

    The conceit that the Big Oil front man gives a toss about climate change isn't worth bothering with. Nor will Mr Blair have forgotten the results of all previous efforts to cajole Mr Bush into doing the right thing, most notably regarding a more even-handed approach to the Palestinians. In return for destroying himself by joining the invasion of Iraq, Mr Blair has received less than nothing. He couldn't even dissuade the President from imposing damaging steel tariffs on the EU.

    Yet the charade that the British PM has serious influence in Washington must be sustained in the interest of the "special relationship", even now, when the salient points of this phantasmal entity's history have become so familiar that they feel like old, and rather tedious, friends.

    Even before Churchill coined the phrase in 1946, the US had struck a hard bargain in return for lend-lease, and sent battleships to Cape Town to collect British gold in part settlement of the debt. This brutal, almost Mafiosi expression of power set the tone for all that followed. As Andrew Marr recounted in his BBC2 series, when the summary withdrawal of American aid propelled Britain towards post-war bankruptcy, Attlee sent Milton Friedman to Washington to beg an interest-free loan of $8bn. All the US gave him was $4bn, with interest. We made the last repayment only late last year.

    So it went on. While Germany and Japan paid for their aggression with booming economies, Britain, economically ravaged by two world wars, had no choice but to yield sovereignty, allowing US air bases on its soil and nuclear submarines in its waters, becoming a kind of client kingdom in return for sporadic and costly US economic assistance.

    The first attempt at major independent military action ended the moment Eisenhower expressed his understandable fury over Suez. When the next came, Reagan remained studiedly neutral in public over the Falklands. In between, the absolute reliance on US support to keep sterling from collapsing prevented Harold Wilson condemning the Vietnam war, to the dismay of naïve colleagues who affected not to appreciate what an epic achievement it was to avoid sending British troops.

    As the senior State Department adviser, Kendall Myers, pointed out a few months ago, there never was a special relationship ("or at least not one we noticed"), and the myth has now completed its mutation into a sad joke. Soon after Britain signed a wilfully unequal extradition treaty that saw us handing over the NatWest Three without a shred of prima facie evidence of any crime, the Pentagon contemptuously disdained the inquests into the friendly fire killing of Lance-Corporal Matty Hull, threatening to prosecute papers that published transcripts of the cockpit recordings it had to hand over.

    So much for the potted history of the "special relationship", but what of its future? With opinion polls capturing the British public's fatigue at the obeisance (64 per cent believe our future lies more with Europe, according to Populus, and an almost identical number want Anglo-American ties loosened), it seems expedient for Gordon Brown to waste no time easing Downing Street out from "right up the White House's arse", to borrow the navigational instruction to Christopher Meyer when he became Ambassador in Washington.

    Obviously this needn't involve re-enacting the Love Actually scene where Hugh Grant tells the President to bugger off, pleasing as that would be, let alone the subplot of A Very British Coup, in which leftie PM Harry Perkins peremptorily tells the Americans to remove their air bases and finds alternative funding from the Kremlin.

    All it means is publicly acknowledging the realpolitik that Britain, far from close to bankruptcy any more, has nothing to gain from ingratiation, because the Americans have never given us a carrot for it, and they never will; and that national self-interest demands not supplication but the sort of candour and independence that may begin the arduous process of rebuilding Britain's reputation.

    Brown could easily send out a message within weeks of taking office. He could repeal that extradition treaty, and request the return of the Nat West Three pending hard evidence that they committed anything that constitutes a crime in Britain. He could pop into the Larry King studio en route to the Oval Office, and spell out the danger inherent in America failing to cut oil use in the vague hope that some miraculous technological advances arrives, like some hydrogen-based deus ex machina, to make everything all right. He could even ask the Americans to reverse their desecration of Grosvenor Square, where the concrete ramps, steel railings and Portakabins stretch ever further from the embassy building to paint a depressing, hideous portrait of arrogant colonial might.

    He'll do no such thing, of course. The idea is almost as fantastical as the special relationship itself because, apart from his innate caution, Gordon is at least as fervent an Atlantacist as Mr Blair, and seems no less convinced that Britain's play-acting at being a major power depends as much on subservience to Washington as the permanent seat on the UN Security Council and the shamefully profligate decision to upgrade Trident.

    So it won't be long before he's standing beneath the imperial eagle at one of those twin lectern White House press conferences, intoning: "Mr President, I'm sure you know how deeply we value the special relationship between our great nations." And when Mr Bush reciprocates the sentiment, his valiant fight to suppress the scornful Frat Boy smirk will be all the carefully nuanced commentary this outmoded ritual strictly demands.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    I think your veiw is a rather pro European one. If the UK decides they like there relationship with the US more, why should they join a union that is going to suck up all there money and send it east. I would also like to point out many Americans veiw the UK as sort of a big brother and if you asked any American on the street who there favorite and best ally was they'd say Britian (okay they would say England but thats for another thread ) As of right now keeping there relation with America is allot beter than being pushed around by France and Germany
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  3. #3
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    I always thought the special relationship was like a prostate exam , necessary for the recipient but leaving them feeling less then special ...
    Last edited by Papewaio; 06-08-2007 at 14:32.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  4. #4
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Wow. Just plain wow. We engage in joint tactical maneuvers. The US and the UK share military secrets on an unprecedented level. We share technology, we have preferential trading relationships. And because you don't like George Bush, you think the UK should turn its back on the US?

    Sorry, BG, Pape, I thought the two of you were more rational than that.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  5. #5
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    I think your veiw is a rather pro European one. If the UK decides they like there relationship with the US more, why should they join a union that is going to suck up all there money and send it east. I would also like to point out many Americans veiw the UK as sort of a big brother and if you asked any American on the street who there favorite and best ally was they'd say Britian (okay they would say England but thats for another thread ) As of right now keeping there relation with America is allot beter than being pushed around by France and Germany
    We can hold our ground in a dispute with France and Germany. We can't do so in any dispute with America, therefore the most we can hope for is that Big Boy will listen to our advice, indebted to the unquestioning service that we have offered. This hasn't been the case during the Bush administration, which has taken all we have given and given nothing in return.

    We're starting to realise that, despite the closeness of our mentalities, when it comes to the fundamentals of power politics, America will never be obliged to take our line. And since America's cultivation of its real "special relationship", with Israel, is directly detrimental to our interests, we might as well stop deluding ourselves that we have any influence over Washington, and start finding a new playground to play in.

    The EU has considerable influence, sufficient to help pursue our interests, and we'll have considerable influence within the EU as one of the "Big Three". At the very least France and Germany would have to bargain with us, instead of riding straight over us as if we don't exist, as America has been doing for the past 7 years.

  6. #6
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Wow. Just plain wow. We engage in joint tactical maneuvers. The US and the UK share military secrets on an unprecedented level. We share technology, we have preferential trading relationships. And because you don't like George Bush, you think the UK should turn its back on the US?

    Sorry, BG, Pape, I thought the two of you were more rational than that.
    Come on Don, let them have thier anti U.S. banter, its to the point of reduntancy and amusing

    Yet again, more opinion pieces of why they should move on look for another direction in thier alliance structure, perhaps its best for all concerned to encourage them to do just that.

    I mean wasnt the EU Mr Churchill's idea in the first place? Lets see them have a go at getting it done, and we can post our newspapers op ed pieces that dress them in glory for thier efforts in that vein.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  7. #7
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    What exactly would make Brittons satisfied that you had us 'brought to heel', as it were? How many issues would we need to take orders from you before you would accept that we truly want to be allies, mutual partners, with you?

    So far, I've heard your demands:

    -Do whatever you say on global warming
    -Abandon Israel to whatever fate its neighbors have in store for it
    -(From the article) give back all the money we received from lend/lease, with interest and add to that an appropriate Marshall Plan payout, again with interest.

    Is there anything I'm missing?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  8. #8
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    We're starting to realise that, despite the closeness of our mentalities, when it comes to the fundamentals of power politics, America will never be obliged to take our line. And since America's cultivation of its real "special relationship", with Israel, is directly detrimental to our interests, we might as well stop deluding ourselves that we have any influence over Washington, and start finding a new playground to play in.
    Here, Here !

    Once you guys elect officials who will steer you toward that end, can we discuss disolving the UN as well? I'm up for it, the antiquated alliances of the past coldwar era dont serve anyone much anymore, although somehow Nato ended up in Afghanistan.

    But once you pull the EU together we can dissolve Nato as well, I for one will be curious as to how the EU handles defense along with socialist programs.

    Please, have at it !
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  9. #9
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Grand Duchy of Yorkshire
    Posts
    8,636

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Is there anything I'm missing?
    Yeah. Your footballs rubbish s well.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  10. #10
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    What exactly would make Brittons satisfied that you had us 'brought to heel', as it were? How many issues would we need to take orders from you before you would accept that we truly want to be allies, mutual partners, with you?

    So far, I've heard your demands:

    -Do whatever you say on global warming
    -Abandon Israel to whatever fate its neighbors have in store for it
    -(From the article) give back all the money we received from lend/lease, with interest and add to that an appropriate Marshall Plan payout, again with interest.

    Is there anything I'm missing?
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation. If that's how America is going to think and act, we might as well look after number one and let America find whatever allies for whatever venture they might be currently planning. If the Clean Breakers want to enact their plan to make Israel-America the hegemonic power in the middle east, they should find the bulk of their strength from those two countries, without involving us.

  11. #11
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Just another case of jealousy. Nothing to see here folks just move on. The main gripe seems to be we are more powerful than you . therefore its a losing proposition for you since you would rather tell us what to do. And you did for a long time along with much of the rest of the world. As has been said most Americans still think of the British as our sort of relatives. If we took a poll on who our best allies are it would be Britain and Australia hands down The US wouldnt be what it is without you. It is reality that every nation takes care of itself first.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  12. #12
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation. If that's how America is going to think and act, we might as well look after number one and let America find whatever allies for whatever venture they might be currently planning. If the Clean Breakers want to enact their plan to make Israel-America the hegemonic power in the middle east, they should find the bulk of their strength from those two countries, without involving us.
    Hmm, the invasion of Iraq didn't serve UK's interest? Interesting assessment. You've been occupying Basra out of the goodness of your heart and desire to please us for the past 5 years? Oil field leases have nothing to do with it?

    Okay, right, listen to the man on the street in London regarding our foreign policy. Gotcha. Do me a favor... when you're out at the pubs this afternoon, find the guy you want as a spokesman to dictate our foreign policies for us, would you?

    I mean, your elected government was involved in the planning, execution and follow up in Iraq. So you must mean your average joe on the street should have the ability to determine our foregin policy.

    -So kill Israel and the Jews over there.
    -Send you gobs of cash: returning lend lease and extending the Marshall plan.
    -Pull out of Iraq. Create an advisory council of British citizens to determine future US foreign policy.
    -Shut off anything in the US that emits Carbon Dioxide, including the people.

    Anything else we can do for you, to prove our loyalty?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  13. #13
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Any of the advice we offered on Iraq? A war that served US and Israeli interests but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation but not Israel's. An occupation where the US followed Israeli advice but not Britain's, despite Britain's participation.
    That was Britains fault.

    It find the lack of responsibility by some UK members to be rather hypocritical. The UK made the decision to go to Iraq, and made the decision to -follow- the U.S. lead.

    Have you listened to Blairs speeches regarding Iraq? There almost identical to Bush in theories. That isnt the U.S. fault, thats Blair's fault, and his governments inability to take the course of action that seemingly the UK voter wanted.

    Nows your chance to take responsibility for your choices in government, and thier policies, make a change and move on.

    We wont stand in your way, because we cant the U.S. dosent have a great deal of leverage over the UK, at least not that I can tell.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  14. #14
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Just another case of jealousy. Nothing to see here folks just move on. The main gripe seems to be we are more powerful than you . therefore its a losing proposition for you since you would rather tell us what to do.
    Erm, it's more a case of "Since you're not going to follow our advice on not going down patently idiotic paths, there's no reason for us to follow you down said paths." I never cared whether or not the US was going to invade Iraq. I only cared that my country was accompanying you, despite the folly that most of us could see it was. Blair's argument was that you were going to do so anyway, so the best thing we could do was to try our best to help you make a success of it. I see no merit in this argument. If the US wants to play Russian roulette with an automatic pistol, I see no reason for Britain do play the same game out of solidarity.

  15. #15
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    That was Britains fault.

    It find the lack of responsibility by some UK members to be rather hypocritical. The UK made the decision to go to Iraq, and made the decision to -follow- the U.S. lead.

    Have you listened to Blairs speeches regarding Iraq? There almost identical to Bush in theories. That isnt the U.S. fault, thats Blair's fault, and his governments inability to take the course of action that seemingly the UK voter wanted.

    Nows your chance to take responsibility for your choices in government, and thier policies, make a change and move on.

    We wont stand in your way, because we cant the U.S. dosent have a great deal of leverage over the UK, at least not that I can tell.
    And now we hope that the new PM will take a different line from Blair, and if he doesn't, we'll kick him out in 2009. The decision to follow the US to war was the fault of the British government, but we see the underlying problem beneath it, the delusion of the "special relationship". I don't want to see us in the same situation again, so I'd rather move away from this "special relationship", and towards a partnership with countries more equal to us, who'd have to bargain with us. It's the story of the despotic King versus the rule of law. A despot may behave kindly and rule justly, but there is no guarantee this situation will last. The rule of law at least guarantees we are all equals under its roof, however imperfect it may be.

  16. #16
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    And now we hope that the new PM will take a different line from Blair, and if he doesn't, we'll kick him out in 2009. The decision to follow the US to war was the fault of the British government, but we see the underlying problem beneath it, the delusion of the "special relationship". I don't want to see us in the same situation again, so I'd rather move away from this "special relationship", and towards a partnership with countries more equal to us, who'd have to bargain with us. It's the story of the despotic King versus the rule of law. A despot may behave kindly and rule justly, but there is no guarantee this situation will last. The rule of law at least guarantees we are all equals under its roof, however imperfect it may be.
    You know I have had some bloody message board battles in the past with Europeans, so I am always hesitant to dive into these conversations. My main gripe has always been the seemingly lack of responsibility taken by europeans as a whole to acknowledge thier governments complicity.

    I think we are moving beyond that now, and the "special relationship" I feel was played out during the coldwar, we both got our benefits from it. My personal opinion is that Britian no more needs the U.S. to be successful going forward, then the U.S. needs it.

    I am hoping for a strong EU that can act as a global power in its own right to finally take the economic pressure off the U.S. for our seeming need to be involved everywhere in the world.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  17. #17
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Erm, it's more a case of "Since you're not going to follow our advice on not going down patently idiotic paths, there's no reason for us to follow you down said paths.
    Yes like WW1 and 2


    , there's no reason for us to follow you down said paths.
    You are entitled to that opinion however your government seems to disagree.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  18. #18
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Eye of the Hurricane (FL)
    Posts
    3,372

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    I think Churchill proposed the EEC, which was formally changed at the Maastricht Treaty to the EU.

    Oddly enough, the UK didn't want to join the EEC because it would force them to give up their Commonwealth associates in SA (at the time), Australia, NZ, and any other colonies the Brits hadn't released.
    I want to spin this another way, what if Australia disliked the 'special relationship ' with the UK, would you be okay if they decided to joined an Asian co-operative?

    I think that the EU might work, but then again, the continent has five 10+ major languages, and multiple minor ones, dialects, and Esperanto (the whole 100 of them). The Germans wouldn't care, the French want to take over the world by language, and English is an acceptable medium. I say the EU goes French, and then it gets rough because the Danish rep said j'ai pas instead of je n'ai pas.
    Last edited by Marshal Murat; 06-08-2007 at 15:43.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  19. #19
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    I think Churchill proposed the EEC, which was formally changed at the Maastricht Treaty to the EU.

    Oddly enough, the UK didn't want to join the EEC because it would force them to give up their Commonwealth associates in SA (at the time), Australia, NZ, and any other colonies the Brits hadn't released.
    I want to spin this another way, what if Australia disliked the 'special relationship ' with the UK, would you be okay if they decided to joined an Asian co-operative?
    We still have a practical relationship? AFAIK we're both part of the Commonwealth, which is mainly a discussion forum for ex-colonies, and which can sometimes be a useful vehicle for haranguing Britain about its past excesses. We have mutual voting rights when resident in each other's countries, and we share a head of state who, by this point in time, is purely nominal. Other than this, what's to stop either of us from joining whatever local power groups we desire? We gave up our right to complain when we joined the EEC.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 06-08-2007 at 15:47.

  20. #20
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Hmm, the invasion of Iraq didn't serve UK's interest? Interesting assessment. You've been occupying Basra out of the goodness of your heart and desire to please us for the past 5 years? Oil field leases have nothing to do with it?

    Okay, right, listen to the man on the street in London regarding our foreign policy. Gotcha. Do me a favor... when you're out at the pubs this afternoon, find the guy you want as a spokesman to dictate our foreign policies for us, would you?

    I mean, your elected government was involved in the planning, execution and follow up in Iraq. So you must mean your average joe on the street should have the ability to determine our foregin policy.

    -So kill Israel and the Jews over there.
    -Send you gobs of cash: returning lend lease and extending the Marshall plan.
    -Pull out of Iraq. Create an advisory council of British citizens to determine future US foreign policy.
    -Shut off anything in the US that emits Carbon Dioxide, including the people.

    Anything else we can do for you, to prove our loyalty?
    wow, could you possibly be more beligerent?

    Its not just Britain on the global warming thing--its the entire world. Our leaders have ignored the facts for years until just recently.

    Why should we favor Israel over any other nation? They all have a right to exist. OH right, its the Israeli lobby in Washington.

    And is there any American who still thinks we should actually STAY in Iraq? lol


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  21. #21
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    wow, could you possibly be more beligerent?
    I suspect He could be.

    Its not just Britain on the global warming thing--its the entire world. Our leaders have ignored the facts for years until just recently.
    Maybe, but the thread is about the special relationship between US and UK.

    Why should we favor Israel over any other nation? They all have a right to exist. OH right, its the Israeli lobby in Washington.
    Isnt there another thread for this Zak, come on man your screwing up a great chance for me to pat some European friends on the back and encourage them to move on


    And is there any American who still thinks we should actually STAY in Iraq? lol
    As much as I would love to read 10-15 more posts from you Zak on the evils of Bush and his Iraq policy, someone just burst into my office and told me there was a dog in the parking lot chasing its tail.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  22. #22
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    wow, could you possibly be more beligerent?

    Its not just Britain on the global warming thing--its the entire world. Our leaders have ignored the facts for years until just recently.

    Why should we favor Israel over any other nation? They all have a right to exist. OH right, its the Israeli lobby in Washington.

    And is there any American who still thinks we should actually STAY in Iraq? lol
    I'm certain I could if I tried a little harder. My intention was not to be belligerent. My intent was through the proper application of irony, certain aspects of the arguments being presented might make themselves more apparent.

    I think British citizens are entitled to their own opinions. Similarly, I think the British government not only should, but is ethically bound to act in a way that most benefits its own citizens first. For the record, on several of the issues presented, I'm actually sympathetic to their viewpoint.

    But I don't see a 'boy do we feel neglected' thread. Nor do I see a "you really ought to listen to us more" thread. Quite the opposite, the purpose for this thread is to advocate for disengagement and severing ties. What's more, the rationale being proffered was the seemingly random assortment of complaints arrayed against us. The validity of said points is not the issue. The reaction to their lack of fulfilling resolution is. As I said, I actually hold sympathetic views on several of the points raised.

    Allies don't say "Do what I want you to or I'm going to end our allegiance and seek a better deal with somebody else". They say "look, we're on the same page on most items, but you've got to do a better job listening to us on this." What's more, the nefarious tone and attribution of malevolent intent towards the United States by our British friends frankly, stings a little. Disagreements? Sure. But every time we have one we must be out to screw them? Not just government to government, but people to people, even person to person? Surely not.

    By the way, Zak. Belligerent? : Hello pot, this is kettle. You're black.

    Edit: And yes, I'm well aware that Banquo is Irish, not British and that Pape is Australian. Though given the fact that either can vote in British parlimentary elections , I imagine corralling them in with Britons proper isn't such a great error.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-08-2007 at 18:13.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  23. #23
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Just West of Boston
    Posts
    1,973

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    By the way, Zak. Belligerent? : Hello pot, this is kettle. You're black.
    Not bad for a Hiller (no its not hitler, its a regional reference Don should get). I almost choked when Zak made the "belligerent" comment.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

  24. #24
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Heh


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  25. #25
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Its not just Britain on the global warming thing--its the entire world. Our leaders have ignored the facts for years until just recently.
    Global warming is a theory not a fact and not even a very good theory . But again thats a topic for another thread.

    Why should we favor Israel over any other nation? They all have a right to exist. OH right, its the Israeli lobby in Washington.
    And you claim not to be a liberal. Yet here you are with this moral equivilency garbage. All nations dont have a right to exist or were we wrong to rid the world of Hitler? And there are lots of reasons to favor Israel over any number of countries.

    I imagine corralling them in with Britons proper isn't such a great error.
    Arent they both British subjects?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  26. #26
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    uh, we rid the world of Hitler, not of Germany.

    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  27. #27
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,338

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    i think Matthew Norman is a cretin, and i strongly disagree with the foolish notion that Britain's future lies more with the EU than the US.

  28. #28
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    uh, we rid the world of Hitler, not of Germany.
    And here I was thinking we split it in two. How many countries have come and gone? Now all of a sudden they all have the right to eternal life? Is that so of people as well?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  29. #29
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,338

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?
    i don't want to put words in his mouth, but i suspect he may be talking about anthropogenic global warming. it is patently obvious that the world is warming as a result of entering an interglacial period, how much (if any) of that total warming results from humans is very much up for debate.

  30. #30
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Is there a special relationship between the US and UK?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    And how could you possibly disagree with the overwhelming amount of evidence about global warming?
    i don't want to put words in his mouth, but i suspect he may be talking about anthropogenic global warming. it is patently obvious that the world is warming as a result of entering an interglacial period, how much (if any) of that total warming results from humans is very much up for debate.
    Sorry I missed that and thanks thats exactly what I meant.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO