EB/EB2 New Unit Thread

[Alexander777]

There has been a lot of talk that EB should have more regional and factional units, so I want to poll the EB fan membership and see what ideas everyone has. Now remember, make sure that any unit suggestions cannot be ones you made up off the top of your head. Please try to have some historical background to each. Also, feel free to suggest units that could possibly be factional in EB2 (for example, Belgae units are currently regional, but they will be factional if the Belgae are made into a faction). I have two possible units to suggest:

Sacred Band of Thebes: This was an elite group of homosexual hoplites from the city of Thebes. They were able to defeat Sparta several times. The only thing I'm not sure about is the historical accuracy. I believe that most (but not all of the band was wiped out by Phillip II of Macedon in 338 BC. I know that some of the Band survived, but I don't know if they were ever reformed after the death of Alexander the Great and the subsequent "rebellion" of such cities as Athens and Sparta. There have been some who have said that the creation of Sparta hoplites in EB was not quite historically accurate, because they were not as great as they once were. Maybe they can twist history again for this unit? If they don't I understand though.

Carthaginian Citizen Light Infantry: I was on Phoenicia.org yesterday (a website dedicated to all things Punic) and found references to this in the military and armor section. Apparently the Carthaginian citizenry not only fought in a citizen phalanx, but they also fought in units of skirmishers. They were armed with javelins and used a thureos shield ( the same one used by peltastai). No idea what kind of armor they used or what secondary weapon they had though.

Now lets hear your ideas!!!

[russia almighty]

Mada Asabara with the half cataphracting that you saw near the end of the Persian empire(can't spell that dynasty worth a ****.)

[Spendios]

RTW units limit : 500
MTW2 units limit : 500

[Teleklos Archelaou]

"Twist history again"? To include a group of soldiers who died and whose city was destroyed - vs. having a group of soldiers who were serving as mercs and defending their city (successfully, for as long as was needed) against Pyrrhos in the year our game starts? Dude, there is no comparison. "There have been some that said" is a way of weaseling out of taking responsibility for the statement also.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Mada Asabara with the half cataphracting that you saw near the end of the Persian empire(can't spell that dynasty worth a ****.)

Of course, I'm not going to say anything, but if you believe in Santa's existence and the joy that fat old guy can spread during summer, then perhaps.

Which means, "no"

[blank]

There has been a lot of talk that EB should have more regional and factional units

They can only add more factions in EB2, not units. I'm actually curious to see how they deal with it, so each faction would still have enough units

[Zarax]

Rebel factions would be something that I would look into with all the extra slots and without extra units available...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

It has been decided to that EB1 won't fill all unit spaces and save a small handfull for EB2, but it will still be difficult.

[Redmeth]

The team said all the faction slots will be occupied by playable factions.
But yeah this will be a challenge, I guess redundant units even though they are historically great to have will probably have to be cut in order for all factions to have decent variation in units.

[Pharnakes]

But if eb2 is for kingdoms, prehaps there will be more units avalible then?

[d'Arthez]

One can hope. Or at least that these units don't share models. That would be an improvement as well. Too bad the modding community does not have the power to suggest to CA that they double the unit limit for Kingdoms.

[Zarax]

Well, the problem is to balance the number of regionals as you will have to cut down on something to be able to implement such an enlarged (50% more) number of factions without having vanilla sized rosters...

It would also be nice to know how many RTW code leftovers are in MTW2 and how much they could be used as stuff like shield wall and schiltrom could be nice but maybe also something like the old senate might be interesting to see and implement over the new system...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I heard alot of the RTW formations are still in M2TW such as shieldwall, but they lack animations. (I think it was Zaknafien that was looking into it.)

[Zarax]

Yeah, it's kind of a pity that the EB team chose to stay on 1.5 as I sincerely think BI could have offered some interesting extras and new avenues for development but now with MTW2 the problem will be largely solved with its larger featureset available.

[BigTex]

But if eb2 is for kingdoms, prehaps there will be more units avalible then?

There will hopefully be a higher unit cap, with 4 different campaigns with many different factions in each, I would hope CA has the foresight to go ahead and increase the limit.

But even without that I sure hope EB2 will be for kingdoms. The improved forts will be interesting. The more intriging thing will be the ability to command reinforcing armies though. That will certainly aid in creating larger battles, with more realistic sizes for the Classical period. With the ability to command 4+ armies at once you might just get those battles with 10,000+ romans against hordes of barbarians.

[keravnos]

But even without that I sure hope EB2 will be for kingdoms. The improved forts will be interesting. The more intriging thing will be the ability to command reinforcing armies though. That will certainly aid in creating larger battles, with more realistic sizes for the Classical period. With the ability to command 4+ armies at once you might just get those battles with 10,000+ romans against hordes of barbarians.

Don't think we don't know about this.
I drool over kingdoms, and my only wish on improvents on it is the BUMP UPWARDS of the units cap.

[Pharnakes]

I seem to remember Alpaca maybe, set up a thread for suggestions, has greater unit limit been mentioned? and more provinces would be nice while they're about it, too.

[Moros]

With the ability to command 4+ armies at once you might just get those battles with 10,000+ romans against hordes of barbarians.

And for a lot of guys even in slowmotion!

[Redmeth]

By the time EB2 is done I think most people will have rigs capable to run these types of huge battles, maybe not with details set to high but still good enough.

[AngryAngelDD]

anyway...the reinforcing armies can only be commanded as a whole unit block...unlike your main army.

this means the "reinforcing" armies should/could be specialised like only cavalry o r archers for harassing the enemy´s back oder flank.

at least this would help to prevent allied commanders to die by cavalry charge ahead of his troops.

my 2cents
AADD

[blacksnail]

Yeah, it's kind of a pity that the EB team chose to stay on 1.5 as I sincerely think BI could have offered some interesting extras and new avenues for development but now with MTW2 the problem will be largely solved with its larger featureset available.

BI's interesting extras solve exactly none of the development issues we have behind the scenes, and taking advantage of them creates some new problems. Beyond this, BI is owned by less people than RTW. It's not an option for us to make it BI-exclusive.

[I Am Herenow]

But if eb2 is for kingdoms, prehaps there will be more units avalible then?

Too bad the modding community does not have the power to suggest to CA that they double the unit limit for Kingdoms.

Has a greater unit limit been mentioned? and more provinces would be nice while they're about it, too.

To be honest, guys, I'm confused - why set limits in the first place? I'm a complete technology noob, but why would CA want to deliberately hinder modders by imposing limits? Surely it's not hard for CA to change a few numbers and hope people have good enough PCs for it?

BI's interesting extras solve exactly none of the development issues we have behind the scenes.

What sort of problems are you having, if I may ask?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be honest, guys, I'm confused - why set limits in the first place? I'm a complete technology noob, but why would CA want to deliberately hinder modders by imposing limits? Surely it's not hard for CA to change a few numbers and hope people have good enough PCs for it?

The max unit/faction/province limit determines the amount the resources (CPU, RAM) that the app uses. Raising the unit limit regardless of whether you use the slots or no raises the workload on your machine.

If raising the cap pushes the resources needed to reasonably run the game above the min spec CA won't do it.

You are correct though, the actual changes in the code are relatively easy.

[blacksnail]

What sort of problems are you having, if I may ask?

As always, hammering the round EB peg into the square Vanilla hole.

[Lowenklee]

I recently paid a long overdue visit to the RTR forums at twcenter.net...

I'm certain the idea is not new to the EB team but they (the RTR team) seem to have gotten around the problem of limited faction slots using emerging factions and batch files, to be honest the whole description was somewhat confusing and I don't really understand it.

I'm curious what the reasons were for the EB team dismissing this approach, were there certain untenable side effects, or perhaps it was a workload issue?

Or is there another thread that covers all that information, I did do a cursory search with the keywords "batch files" but couldn't find anything specific.

As for new units, I would like to see an expanded roster of baltic and protoslavic units. There are albeit fantastical accounts of the nature of the people living in the area during the timeframe of EB afforded us by Herodotus (I think it was him), but certainly the archeological evidence could be used to bridge the gap between fact and fiction?

As is, the vast geographic area represented by these people lies underused. Stronger representation of baltic and protoslavic people would also make for an interesting environment wherein steppe peoples, germans, and thracian elements would have greater reason to contest these areas for locally available troops to use in foreign expansion elsewhere. It may also serve to check these peoples expansion so far from their homelands. At least in the case of the germans and their tendency to thunder across the east let them waste themselves a bit in the wilderness of russia and the baltic forests

In terms of general composition ideally they'd be cheap, of relative poor quality, but great ambushers and with certain habits of behavior distressing to more cultivated peoples?

As an aside, it would be nice to have an economic incentive to expansion in this area. Nothing on par with the southern trade routes but perhaps an increase on the income available through control of the amber trade or through more river port type options?

I'll look into how supportable the idea is from a historical standpoint as soon as I have a book or two available to me

[Redmeth]

As is, the vast geographic area represented by these people lies underused. Stronger representation of baltic and protoslavic people would also make for an interesting environment wherein steppe peoples, germans, and thracian elements would have greater reason to contest these areas for locally available troops to use in foreign expansion elsewhere. It may also serve to check these peoples expansion so far from their homelands. At least in the case of the germans and their tendency to thunder across the east let them waste themselves a bit in the wilderness of russia and the baltic forests

In terms of general composition ideally they'd be cheap, of relative poor quality, but great ambushers and with certain habits of behavior distressing to more cultivated peoples?

I agree on this plus the Sweboz usually conquer that area and just spam at least a couple of stacks of Kirisilinkas, no variety (maybe 1-2 baltic archers tops) maybe they should get more of their troops there or more baltic units should be implemented.

[I Am Herenow]

What does that damned waving-a-briefcase smiley mean?! People keep using it in their posts, but I can never understand what they mean by it!

And as I'm on the subject of stuff that bugs me because I don't understand it, what does "IIRC" mean?


P.S.

Lowenklee, as for what you actually posted, I agree with it

[Redmeth]

Dude, it's a hammer "smash"

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The RTR batch files approach works by essetially them making 20 different mods. They make different mods based on each faction and you run a program to replace files in the RTW folder. When you start up their game you can only place as, say, Aedui or Arverni, but if you exit and run the Rome batch file, you can play as only Rome and there is no Arverni anymore. The Arverni slot is replaced by Roman Rebels.

What does that damned waving-a-briefcase smiley mean?! People keep using it in their posts, but I can never understand what they mean by it!

And as I'm on the subject of stuff that bugs me because I don't understand it, what does "IIRC" mean?

It is a guy with a hammer smashing stuff. IIRC = "If I recall correctly"

[Geoffrey S]

To be honest, guys, I'm confused - why set limits in the first place? I'm a complete technology noob, but why would CA want to deliberately hinder modders by imposing limits? Surely it's not hard for CA to change a few numbers and hope people have good enough PCs for it?

As Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla said, mainly hardware limitations. But also, think for a second about this: if there were no limits to how far RTW could be modded, and modders could add increasing amounts of factions and units as computers improved, wouldn't that rather hurt sales of future TW titles? They'd be creating their own competition.